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Graffiti on trains

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2

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    #32
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    I'll take a spray can and cover your car with paint, see how you get on.

    What's that got to do with my point? I just mean it shouldn't be that expensive to clean off. I'm talking from a budgetary point of view.

    I also can't see why a quick buff can't be done immediately, so it's not legible, and then a full clean done later on.


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    #33
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,790 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Effects wrote: »
    What's that got to do with my point? I just mean it shouldn't be that expensive to clean off. I'm talking from a budgetary point of view.

    I also can't see why a quick buff can't be done immediately, so it's not legible, and then a full clean done later on.

    It's a lot more expensive than your laughable figure unless you're cleaning a Hornby model train.

    "For a complete railcar set, that can cost up to € 15,000. Amounts of this kind quickly add up: In 2014, sprayers left their traces on the trains and infrastructure of Deutsche Bahn about 20,000 times. That year the resulting damage amounted to more than € 8 million"

    Don't forget the other knock on costs of withdrawing it from service and standing idle.


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    #34
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    It's a lot more expensive than your laughable figure unless you're cleaning a Hornby model train.
    "For a complete railcar set, that can cost up to € 15,000. Amounts of this kind quickly add up: In 2014, sprayers left their traces on the trains and infrastructure of Deutsche Bahn about 20,000 times. That year the resulting damage amounted to more than € 8 million"

    It's you that has the laughable figure. Comparing the cost of part cleaning of a train carriage, by a worker on close to minimum wage, to the repainting on an entire set.

    And you lifted your quote from a company website that says it's easier and cheaper to clean off graffiti than ever before, thanks to their product and service.


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    #35
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Staking out some of the locations where the graffiti 'artists' are operating and some high profile prosecutions might go some way to act as a deterrent.

    This is the sort of thing where a zero-tolerance approach to crime is needed, what should happen is these scumbags should be shot dead by either the armed police or the property owners. If one or two were killed it would send a message and it would quickly stop. It takes a particular type of brain dead imbecile to do this. I was in Lisbon recently and Portugal is badly effected by Graffiti, prosecutions won't work only something far harsher.


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    #36
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    theguzman wrote: »
    This is the sort of thing where a zero-tolerance approach to crime is needed, what should happen is these scumbags should be shot dead by either the armed police or the property owners. If one or two were killed it would send a message and it would quickly stop.

    That's just not realistic. You can't just kill someone like that.

    The trains need to not enter service or else be scrubbed so it isn't recognisable. Denying what the graffiti vandals want, to see their name on a train in service.
    Then do a proper cleaning job when it's possible.

    There was one killed a few years ago. Discussion wasn't allowed on this forum about it.


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    #37
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Effects wrote: »
    The trains need to not enter service or else be scrubbed so it isn't recognisable. Denying what the graffiti vandals want, to see their name on a train in service.
    Then do a proper cleaning job when it's possible.

    There was one killed a few years ago. Discussion wasn't allowed on this forum about it.

    That would have been what they wanted in the past. But I've heard now in recent years with the rise of social media they are now getting a lot more exposure by posting pictures and videos of their "artworks" on the internet even if the train they vandalise never runs in service with graffiti also the train could end running on the line even out of service if the train is graffitied while parked up in a siding without the facilities to clean it off.

    I'm sure if you asked most people would they rather take a train with graffiti or have their train cancelled they'd choose the first option.


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    #38
    man98
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    State of general maintenance in Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann is getting a whole lot worse at the moment for whatever reason (I blame underfunding). The 0805 train from Connolly to Rosslare on Saturday had a completely shattered window and was still allowed to enter service


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    #39
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    the Dart seems to have got worse in the last month or 2

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #40
    zoobizoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,714 ✭✭✭zoobizoo


    Haven't been on a DART in ages but I used to work in this field.

    It's strange that there is an upswing in tagging on the trains because in general, there has been a downturn in graffitiing or it has stabilised and a lot of what you see on motorways etc is old. There was a bit of a tagging trend in South Dublin 5/6/7 years ago but those guys have grown up, left school etc


    Irish Rail are quite good at getting convictions when they catch the guys but the sentences fines aren't that harsh. So someone caught who had done significant damage to trains on Christmas Day - yes - he went out on Christmas Day when no trains were running and did tens of thousands worth of damage. IR have a guy who deals with graffiti who is quite proactive


    It would be a major cost to clean the walls of along the DART line and you'd be giving taggers a new blank canvass to work on as they don't paint over other people's work. I'd love to see them being restored to cleanliness but it would be a major undertaking.


    Taggers aren't using social media anymore to post their 'work' - part of the reason for that is because I caught about 15/20 of them due to their online presence - they'd post photos of themselves and their tags on their open Facebook pages.

    Supplied that info to the Gardaí and Irish Rail and some of them were prosecuted as a result.


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    #41
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    zoobizoo wrote: »
    Haven't been on a DART in ages but I used to work in this field.

    It's strange that there is an upswing in tagging on the trains because in general, there has been a downturn in graffitiing or it has stabilised and a lot of what you see on motorways etc is old. There was a bit of a tagging trend in South Dublin 5/6/7 years ago but those guys have grown up, left school etc


    Irish Rail are quite good at getting convictions when they catch the guys but the sentences fines aren't that harsh. So someone caught who had done significant damage to trains on Christmas Day - yes - he went out on Christmas Day when no trains were running and did tens of thousands worth of damage. IE have a guy who deals with graffiti who is quite proactive,


    It would be a major cost to clean the walls of along the DART line and you'd be giving taggers a new blank canvass to work on as they don't paint over other people's work. I'd love to see them being restored to cleanliness but it would be a major undertaking.


    Taggers aren't using social media anymore to post their 'work' - part of the reason for that is because I caught about 15/20 of them due to their online presence - they'd post photos of themselves and their tags on their open Facebook pages.

    Supplied that info to the Gardaí and Irish Rail and some of them were prosecuted as a result.

    Cleaning the walls wouldn't have become a major expense if CIE hadn't let it go to hell in the first place. Years ago the only graffiti on the entire DART line were political slogans such as "Free Nicky Kelly" on the same short stretch of line near Williamstown (Blackrock). Now virtually everything is daubed from Howth to Greystones.

    ****



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    #42
    zoobizoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,714 ✭✭✭zoobizoo


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Cleaning the walls wouldn't have become a major expense if CIE hadn't let it go to hell in the first place. Years ago the only graffiti on the entire DART line were political slogans such as "Free Nicky Kelly" on the same short stretch of line near Williamstown (Blackrock). Now virtually everything is daubed from Howth to Greystones.

    I'm not defending their initial lack of action.

    But think about it. A piece of a wall between Sandycove and Dun Laoghaire gets tagged.

    We reports it? The driver who is concentrating on driving the train? It's not his job and how does he report it? Then who cleans it? IR hire in contractors to do this which is an extra cost.

    And if the piece gets done again that week.... the whole process starts again.

    That said, graffiti begets graffiti and a no tolerance approach keeps it at a minimum.

    From memory, the station master (?) takes care of one end of the station to the other and the stations are generally graff free.


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    #43
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    Effects wrote: »
    That's just not realistic. You can't just kill someone like that.

    The trains need to not enter service or else be scrubbed so it isn't recognisable. Denying what the graffiti vandals want, to see their name on a train in service.
    Then do a proper cleaning job when it's possible.

    There was one killed a few years ago. Discussion wasn't allowed on this forum about it.

    I would see nothing wrong with it, they are vandals and it is not art, I have yet to see any so called graffiti that doesn't resemble a steaming pile of dog sh1t. If we had proper law and order these things wouldn't happen, these type of people don't serve a place in any decent society.


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    #44
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,893 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Why can't they just paint over the graffiti than waste time cleaning it? A lick of paint will cover the vandalism and is easy to do. For vehicles just vinyl wrap the panels that our tagged, shouldn't take too long to apply and have the vehicle back in service.


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    #45
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    zoobizoo wrote: »
    I'm not defending their initial lack of action.

    But think about it. A piece of a wall between Sandycove and Dun Laoghaire gets tagged.

    We reports it? The driver who is concentrating on driving the train? It's not his job and how does he report it? Then who cleans it? IR hire in contractors to do this which is an extra cost.

    And if the piece gets done again that week.... the whole process starts again.

    That said, graffiti begets graffiti and a no tolerance approach keeps it at a minimum.

    From memory, the station master (?) takes care of one end of the station to the other and the stations are generally graff free.

    It should not be beyond train drivers to report what they see and as for Stationmasters - their race is run and some of the DART line stations are virtually unstaffed.

    ****



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    #46
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    theguzman wrote: »
    I would see nothing wrong with it.

    So in your version of reality you condone on the spot death penalty for someone painting graffiti on a train. That just makes you sound like you're not right in the head.


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    #47
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0yvkPF2KN4


    These scumbags are well organised if this video is anything to go by and somebody needs to be apprehended and made an example of in the courts. How difficult can it be to track them down via their postings on YouTube, quite apart from having people on the ground to catch them in the act. :mad:

    ****



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    #48
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0yvkPF2KN4


    These scumbags are well organised if this video is anything to go by and somebody needs to be apprehended and made an example of in the courts. How difficult can it be to track them down via their postings on YouTube, quite apart from having people on the ground to catch them in the act. :mad:

    IE need to be more protective as to whom get's a hi vis jacket with their logo on it. How did they get them coming to think about it on a number of occasions I've seen workers on building sites wearing high vis with IEs logo on it. I suggest you take down the link to their video as that could be seen as glorifying them. In the last few months I've noticed nearly every second DART set has graffiti on it.


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    #49
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,790 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    IE need to be more protective as to whom get's a hi vis jacket with their logo on it. How did they get them coming to think about it on a number of occasions I've seen workers on building sites wearing high vis with IEs logo on it. I suggest you take down the link to their video as that could be seen as glorifying them.

    The builders could have been contractors working on IE sites and kept the vests after the job was done. The "artists" could well have picked them up lying around seemingly deserted IE depots as security seems to be lax to say the least. Doesn't take a genius to buy a plain vest and add fake branding anyhow.


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    #50
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    I saw this video earlier this week and it exposes many serious security questions for IE management. Never mind the Graffiti but the fact they can access inside depots in brad daylight is very concerning and exposes staff and customers to serious risks. Hi vis jacket are largely irrelevant and not an excuse for such breaches.

    It's a year old and the problem appears worse than even now so clearly nothing has changed.


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    #51
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I saw this video earlier this week and it exposes many serious security questions for IE management. Never mind the Graffiti but the fact they can access inside depots in brad daylight is very concerning and exposes staff and customers to serious risks. Hi vis jacket are largely irrelevant and not an excuse for such breaches.

    It's a year old and the problem appears worse than even now so clearly nothing has changed.

    Not only does it expose the sets to graffiti but also potential more serious vandalism including arson


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    #52
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,306 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    If a transport police force was set up here; they should have a major presence & control room fitted with some weapons for the officers & CCTV cameras set up on site at Fairview Depot & all other major Irish rail depots & stations around the country to act as a form of security that will go against these scumbags. Either the Gardaí, NTA & IE need to consider setting up airport style security checks for official IE staff members in these locations so they know which ones are genuine & which of the unofficial cohorts are just there to cause trouble to their security arrangements.

    For now though; the Gardaí should have the powers in legislation to find the person who uploaded the youtube video, nab the IP address of the video & home address of the individual & arrest him along with his cohorts who have taken part in this crime. If they did it now it would be great to see them getting these scum into court, get them charged for severe criminal damage committed on state owned property & then receive a really severe jail sentence for their crime. Now in an ideal world; that would be great to see in this country. But as this is Ireland; could it be something that is too good to be true? We know what will really happen afterwards when these guys do get caught by the Gardaí. The punishments they will receive in court would not be proportionate to their actual punishment for their crime.

    Am I making enough sense with this reality that we as a society are living through at the moment?


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    #53
    Ubetkoff
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Ubetkoff


    dublinman1990 wrote: »

    For now though; the Gardaí should have the powers in legislation to find the person who uploaded the youtube video, nab the IP address of the video & home address of the individual & arrest him along with his cohorts who have taken part in this crime. If they did it now it would be great to see them getting these scum into court, get them charged for severe criminal damage committed on state owned property & then receive a really severe jail sentence for their crime. Now in an ideal world; that would be great to see in this country. But as this is Ireland; could it be something that is too good to be true? We know what will really happen afterwards when these guys do get caught by the Gardaí. The punishments they will receive in court would not be proportionate to their actual punishment for their crime.

    The video was sent anonymously, dumbo


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    #54
    Ubetkoff
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Ubetkoff


    How are the trains being damaged its just paint


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    #55
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Ubetkoff wrote: »
    dublinman1990 wrote: »

    For now though; the Gardaí should have the powers in legislation to find the person who uploaded the youtube video, nab the IP address of the video & home address of the individual & arrest him along with his cohorts who have taken part in this crime. If they did it now it would be great to see them getting these scum into court, get them charged for severe criminal damage committed on state owned property & then receive a really severe jail sentence for their crime. Now in an ideal world; that would be great to see in this country. But as this is Ireland; could it be something that is too good to be true? We know what will really happen afterwards when these guys do get caught by the Gardaí. The punishments they will receive in court would not be proportionate to their actual punishment for their crime.

    The video was sent anonymously, dumbo

    Dumbo, the person who uploaded it knows exactly where it came from.


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    #56
    railer201
    Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    Ubetkoff wrote: »
    How are the trains being damaged its just paint

    So if I want to graffiti all over the outside of your house or wherever you live, there is no problem - it's just paint. :rolleyes:


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    #57
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    If a transport police force was set up here; they should have a major presence & control room fitted with some weapons for the officers & CCTV cameras set up on site at Fairview Depot & all other major Irish rail depots & stations around the country to act as a form of security that will go against these scumbags. Either the Gardaí, NTA & IE need to consider setting up airport style security checks for official IE staff members in these locations so they know which ones are genuine & which of the unofficial cohorts are just there to cause trouble to their security arrangements.

    Will never happen the cost of doing that outweighs the risks of the cost of repairs for vandalism. Only place I've heard of such measures being taken with regards to public transport is Israel for completley different but understandable reasons.

    Since they implemented 10 minute DARTs there are not enough spare DART sets to replace vandalised sets hence why more and more graffitied units are being put into service.


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    #58
    Ubetkoff
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Ubetkoff


    railer201 wrote: »
    So if I want to graffiti all over the outside of your house or wherever you live, there is no problem - it's just


    I didn't say it's not a problem I said it does not damage the trains, there's a difference, and my apartment actually has tags on the lower floors and it doesn't bother anyone living here.


    Case closed


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    #59
    Ubetkoff
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Ubetkoff


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Ubetkoff wrote: »

    Dumbo, the person who uploaded it knows exactly where it came from.

    And ?


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    #60
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    There is such thing as an anti-graffiti paint/finish that can be made on trains which makes it pretty much impossible to deface trains in a way that is not very very easily cleaned, but it is not cheap.

    The other downside of it is that it makes repainting the trains later on requiring sanding them down to repaint, although you can get around that just by viynling them.


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    #61
    railer201
    Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    Ubetkoff wrote: »

    I didn't say it's not a problem I said it does not damage the trains, there's a difference, and my apartment actually has tags on the lower floors and it doesn't bother anyone living here.

    The solvents used to remove the graffiti damages the underlying paintwork as it happens, and all this remedial work has to be paid for. In addition it damages the pocket - the rail travellers pocket.

    Who would want to purchase an apartment which has been graffitied ? - tags to some - criminal damage to others, and bound to affect the market value !


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