Graffiti on trains

Effects

Is it just me or has this gotten a lot worse in recent months?
I got on two different trains today, both had graffiti sprayed on them.
Is there just too much being done that they can't clean them all off in time, or is it just tolerated more.
Surely it isn't that hard to clean off?

goingnowhere

Not really, just less slack to take a train out of service for cleaning due capacity requirements.

Vic_08

Effects wrote: »

Is it just me or has this gotten a lot worse in recent months?
I got on two different trains today, both had graffiti sprayed on them.
Is there just too much being done that they can't clean them all off in time, or is it just tolerated more.
Surely it isn't that hard to clean off?

It requires application of a chemical remover by hand and then scraping off, often more than one pass is required to fully remove the damage.

IMO no stock should be allowed in service with graffiti, even if it means cancelling or short forming trains. LU brought in that policy in the 90s when it had gotten out of control. The more public visibility this vandalism gets the more it encourages the same scumbags to do more and others to copy them.

Unfortunately the state of our railways with this sh!t is just a symptom of our country's unwillingness to police and control so called "low-level" criminal behaviour, there is no longer any effective policing and even when caught there is even less effective legal remedies. In Ireland you get a free pass for anti-social and criminal behaviour.

Effects

I don't think I'd want it affecting service myself. Is there not enough stock to pull it out and clean it without affecting service?
I understand there may be less man power available to do that as well though.

L1011

There is next to no spare stock. DART had quite a bit until the 10 minute frequency came in, but not anymore.

Effects

Are there more trains on order? I know they had a recent recruitment for drivers.
I just never thought I'd see things getting to a stage where graffiti was running on trains.
I know it's happening a lot in NYC at the moment but that's part of a wider problem of their service and infrastructure going badly down hill.

L1011

Tender going out in April apparently for bi-mode units, and more 22k centre cars are to be ordered. The NTA is looking at second hand UK units also

Del.Monte

Effects wrote: »

Are there more trains on order? I know they had a recent recruitment for drivers.
I just never thought I'd see things getting to a stage where graffiti was running on trains.
I know it's happening a lot in NYC at the moment but that's part of a wider problem of their service and infrastructure going badly down hill.

It has been at epidemic levels in the US for decades and that's why it so depressing that those in charge here don't understand the need to get on top of the the problem from the outset. It doesn't just apply to CIE but to the country as a whole.

Effects

Del.Monte wrote: »

It has been at epidemic levels in the US for decades.

No, it's gotten far far worse. I just don't you know the level it's at. Whole NY subway trains, covered top to bottom. That hasn't been the case since the 80s. Even in the 90s they wouldn't be that bad, and they certainly wouldn't run them in service.

Effects

Can't they have contract cleaners on night shift removing this stuff before the morning?

Captain Chaos

Effects wrote: »

Can't they have contract cleaners on night shift removing this stuff before the morning?

The graffiti is happening at night on the sets left out in the open while others are being cleaned. Plus it takes a good bit of time to remove, more than one night shift.

I've noticed the maintenance is starting to suffer too. Lots of sets going around with wheels flats, doors out of service and faulty rattling air con.

The DART units are not going to last long at this rate. Aot more units are need for this 10 minute timetable

Jamie2k9

Fairview should have security at night. You don't see Luas suffer with the same problems. They even send a team out if a tram cannot get back to depot.

Fairview, Connolly and Drogheda are problem areas.

Effects

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Fairview should have security at night.

I'd have thought they do, but are they just not good enough?
What about the cameras they have, are they just recording or monitored remotely?
Fairview is pretty close to Clontarf Garda station if a rapid response was needed.

Del.Monte

Effects wrote: »

I'd have thought they do, but are they just not good enough?
What about the cameras they have, are they just recording or monitored remotely?
Fairview is pretty close to Clontarf Garda station if a rapid response was needed.

CIE is the problem - they couldn't care less about graffiti or much anything else.

Jamie2k9

Effects wrote: »

I'd have thought they do, but are they just not good enough?
What about the cameras they have, are they just recording or monitored remotely?
Fairview is pretty close to Clontarf Garda station if a rapid response was needed.

I don't know the set up however considering its a frequent problem particularly with DARTs a change is needed. They claim to spend up to a million on removing it a fraction of this could eliminate most of the problem assuming it happens in a depot overnight.

Stephen15

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Fairview should have security at night. You don't see Luas suffer with the same problems. They even send a team out if a tram cannot get back to depot.

Fairview, Connolly and Drogheda are problem areas.

To be fair it is easier to secure one of the Luas depots which are more like a bus garage which can easily be secured with gates and high walls than a railway which can be accessed by walking up the line and then there's also the trains stabled in Bray.

Anteayer

The level of graffiti here is tiny compared to many continental countries. I've been on trains in France where it was so bad you literally couldn't see out any of the windows.

It's so out of hand in France that I find it depressing tbh. You're just looking out the window at graffiti all over every surface and most of it isn't even remotely artistic.

Stephen15

Vic_08 wrote: »

IMO no stock should be allowed in service with graffiti, even if it means cancelling or short forming trains. LU brought in that policy in the 90s when it had gotten out of control. The more public visibility this vandalism gets the more it encourages the same scumbags to do more and others to copy them.

Unfortunately the state of our railways with this sh!t is just a symptom of our country's unwillingness to police and control so called "low-level" criminal behaviour, there is no longer any effective policing and even when caught there is even less effective legal remedies. In Ireland you get a free pass for anti-social and criminal behaviour.

I wouldn't agree with that now. Ireland is not particularly bad compared to anywhere else in Europe for graffiti on rolling stock. Not justifying it but it's actually fairly common to see graffitied stock in service on the continent even in some of the Nordic countries where one would assume are wealthier and better able to afford removal.

IE should certainly be looking to do all they can to prevent graffitied cars running in service without having to disrupt services. I was on the S-Bahn in Berlin and a number of the cars would have graffiti but the traisn certainly weren't overrun with it. The worst I've ever seen is the Metro in Rome where virtually every station and carriage is covered in it.

Sam Quentin

Trains in Italy, trains in London, coming into all the main stns in Italy, UK all over Europe and it all looks terrible and depressing.. I blame the USA cop shows and sitcoms from the 70s & 80s,every time you'd see a shot from a metro or train stn they'd be covered in shítr non sensical graffiti vandalism. I certainly wouldn't start dissing IE because of it.. but I do agree a sterner approach should be taken towards it.

Del.Monte

Anteayer wrote: »

The level of graffiti here is tiny compared to many continental countries. I've been on trains in France where it was so bad you literally couldn't see out any of the windows.

It's so out of hand in France that I find it depressing tbh. You're just looking out the window at graffiti all over every surface and most of it isn't even remotely artistic.

That's okay so, nothing to see here and we can bury our heads in the sand until it gets totally out of hand - bit like the drugs problem. :rolleyes:

Jamie2k9

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be fair it is easier to secure one of the Luas depots which are more like a bus garage which can easily be secured with gates and high walls than a railway which can be accessed by walking up the line and then there's also the trains stabled in Bray.

Perhaps however you don't see them causing problems at Portlaoise Depot. I am not saying they will eliminate it however they could do more to prevent.

Anteayer

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's okay so, nothing to see here and we can bury our heads in the sand until it gets totally out of hand - bit like the drugs problem. :rolleyes:

Did I say do nothing about it?!!!

Del.Monte

Anteayer wrote: »

Did I say do nothing about it?!!!

Apologies, it's just my style of posting. Usually 'it's worse in Paris, New York etc,' is wheeled out by people who suggest that things aren't that bad here - i.e we don't need to do anything about the particular problem.

Anteayer

It should be nipped in the bud but overall I don't think that should be particularly difficult as it really isn't all that large scale yet.

It's another reason why transit police are needed.

whisky_galore

Del.Monte wrote: »

CIE is the problem - they couldn't care less about graffiti or much anything else.

In fairness to Irish Rail, they do withdraw sets for expensive cleaning as soon as they can. Your kicking of CIE/IE for the sake of it all of the time is rather tiresome.

Keyzer

Effects wrote: »

Can't they have contract cleaners on night shift removing this stuff before the morning?

Are you joking? They can barely get the trains to operate anywhere near one time. Paying for someone to clean them would require a monumental break from the prehistoric and non-ambitious management style in Irish Rail.

Anteayer

It's very expensive and difficult to clean too, as you're often cleaning what is basically the same kind of coatings that are actually used to paint trains in first place.

It's both extremely expensive and environmentally damaging process, as is the graffiti painting in the first place.

So everytime those trains are damaged by graffiti it means money that could be going to delivery of services is going to specialist cleaning and even potentially repainting of vehicles.

Can you imagine if someone did that to your car or your house on a regular basis?!

Effects

whisky_galore wrote: »

In fairness to Irish Rail, they do withdraw sets for expensive cleaning as soon as they can.

Is it that expensive? I'd imagine 500 euro would cover it.

Stephen15

Effects wrote: »

Is it that expensive? I'd imagine 500 euro would cover it.

If the damage is significant it may require a full respray rather than scrubbing it off.

whisky_galore

Effects wrote: »

Is it that expensive? I'd imagine 500 euro would cover it.

I'll take a spray can and cover your car with paint, see how you get on.

Del.Monte

Staking out some of the locations where the graffiti 'artists' are operating and some high profile prosecutions might go some way to act as a deterrent.

Effects

whisky_galore wrote: »

I'll take a spray can and cover your car with paint, see how you get on.

What's that got to do with my point? I just mean it shouldn't be that expensive to clean off. I'm talking from a budgetary point of view.

I also can't see why a quick buff can't be done immediately, so it's not legible, and then a full clean done later on.

whisky_galore

Effects wrote: »

What's that got to do with my point? I just mean it shouldn't be that expensive to clean off. I'm talking from a budgetary point of view.

I also can't see why a quick buff can't be done immediately, so it's not legible, and then a full clean done later on.

It's a lot more expensive than your laughable figure unless you're cleaning a Hornby model train.

"For a complete railcar set, that can cost up to € 15,000. Amounts of this kind quickly add up: In 2014, sprayers left their traces on the trains and infrastructure of Deutsche Bahn about 20,000 times. That year the resulting damage amounted to more than € 8 million"

Don't forget the other knock on costs of withdrawing it from service and standing idle.

Effects

whisky_galore wrote: »

It's a lot more expensive than your laughable figure unless you're cleaning a Hornby model train.
"For a complete railcar set, that can cost up to € 15,000. Amounts of this kind quickly add up: In 2014, sprayers left their traces on the trains and infrastructure of Deutsche Bahn about 20,000 times. That year the resulting damage amounted to more than € 8 million"

It's you that has the laughable figure. Comparing the cost of part cleaning of a train carriage, by a worker on close to minimum wage, to the repainting on an entire set.

And you lifted your quote from a company website that says it's easier and cheaper to clean off graffiti than ever before, thanks to their product and service.

theguzman

Del.Monte wrote: »

Staking out some of the locations where the graffiti 'artists' are operating and some high profile prosecutions might go some way to act as a deterrent.

This is the sort of thing where a zero-tolerance approach to crime is needed, what should happen is these scumbags should be shot dead by either the armed police or the property owners. If one or two were killed it would send a message and it would quickly stop. It takes a particular type of brain dead imbecile to do this. I was in Lisbon recently and Portugal is badly effected by Graffiti, prosecutions won't work only something far harsher.

Effects

theguzman wrote: »

This is the sort of thing where a zero-tolerance approach to crime is needed, what should happen is these scumbags should be shot dead by either the armed police or the property owners. If one or two were killed it would send a message and it would quickly stop.

That's just not realistic. You can't just kill someone like that.

The trains need to not enter service or else be scrubbed so it isn't recognisable. Denying what the graffiti vandals want, to see their name on a train in service.
Then do a proper cleaning job when it's possible.

There was one killed a few years ago. Discussion wasn't allowed on this forum about it.

Stephen15

Effects wrote: »

The trains need to not enter service or else be scrubbed so it isn't recognisable. Denying what the graffiti vandals want, to see their name on a train in service.
Then do a proper cleaning job when it's possible.

There was one killed a few years ago. Discussion wasn't allowed on this forum about it.

That would have been what they wanted in the past. But I've heard now in recent years with the rise of social media they are now getting a lot more exposure by posting pictures and videos of their "artworks" on the internet even if the train they vandalise never runs in service with graffiti also the train could end running on the line even out of service if the train is graffitied while parked up in a siding without the facilities to clean it off.

I'm sure if you asked most people would they rather take a train with graffiti or have their train cancelled they'd choose the first option.

man98

State of general maintenance in Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann is getting a whole lot worse at the moment for whatever reason (I blame underfunding). The 0805 train from Connolly to Rosslare on Saturday had a completely shattered window and was still allowed to enter service

silverharp

the Dart seems to have got worse in the last month or 2

zoobizoo

Haven't been on a DART in ages but I used to work in this field.

It's strange that there is an upswing in tagging on the trains because in general, there has been a downturn in graffitiing or it has stabilised and a lot of what you see on motorways etc is old. There was a bit of a tagging trend in South Dublin 5/6/7 years ago but those guys have grown up, left school etc


Irish Rail are quite good at getting convictions when they catch the guys but the sentences fines aren't that harsh. So someone caught who had done significant damage to trains on Christmas Day - yes - he went out on Christmas Day when no trains were running and did tens of thousands worth of damage. IR have a guy who deals with graffiti who is quite proactive


It would be a major cost to clean the walls of along the DART line and you'd be giving taggers a new blank canvass to work on as they don't paint over other people's work. I'd love to see them being restored to cleanliness but it would be a major undertaking.


Taggers aren't using social media anymore to post their 'work' - part of the reason for that is because I caught about 15/20 of them due to their online presence - they'd post photos of themselves and their tags on their open Facebook pages.

Supplied that info to the Gardaí and Irish Rail and some of them were prosecuted as a result.

Del.Monte

zoobizoo wrote: »

Haven't been on a DART in ages but I used to work in this field.

It's strange that there is an upswing in tagging on the trains because in general, there has been a downturn in graffitiing or it has stabilised and a lot of what you see on motorways etc is old. There was a bit of a tagging trend in South Dublin 5/6/7 years ago but those guys have grown up, left school etc


Irish Rail are quite good at getting convictions when they catch the guys but the sentences fines aren't that harsh. So someone caught who had done significant damage to trains on Christmas Day - yes - he went out on Christmas Day when no trains were running and did tens of thousands worth of damage. IE have a guy who deals with graffiti who is quite proactive,


It would be a major cost to clean the walls of along the DART line and you'd be giving taggers a new blank canvass to work on as they don't paint over other people's work. I'd love to see them being restored to cleanliness but it would be a major undertaking.


Taggers aren't using social media anymore to post their 'work' - part of the reason for that is because I caught about 15/20 of them due to their online presence - they'd post photos of themselves and their tags on their open Facebook pages.

Supplied that info to the Gardaí and Irish Rail and some of them were prosecuted as a result.

Cleaning the walls wouldn't have become a major expense if CIE hadn't let it go to hell in the first place. Years ago the only graffiti on the entire DART line were political slogans such as "Free Nicky Kelly" on the same short stretch of line near Williamstown (Blackrock). Now virtually everything is daubed from Howth to Greystones.

zoobizoo

Del.Monte wrote: »

Cleaning the walls wouldn't have become a major expense if CIE hadn't let it go to hell in the first place. Years ago the only graffiti on the entire DART line were political slogans such as "Free Nicky Kelly" on the same short stretch of line near Williamstown (Blackrock). Now virtually everything is daubed from Howth to Greystones.

I'm not defending their initial lack of action.

But think about it. A piece of a wall between Sandycove and Dun Laoghaire gets tagged.

We reports it? The driver who is concentrating on driving the train? It's not his job and how does he report it? Then who cleans it? IR hire in contractors to do this which is an extra cost.

And if the piece gets done again that week.... the whole process starts again.

That said, graffiti begets graffiti and a no tolerance approach keeps it at a minimum.

From memory, the station master (?) takes care of one end of the station to the other and the stations are generally graff free.

theguzman

Effects wrote: »

That's just not realistic. You can't just kill someone like that.

The trains need to not enter service or else be scrubbed so it isn't recognisable. Denying what the graffiti vandals want, to see their name on a train in service.
Then do a proper cleaning job when it's possible.

There was one killed a few years ago. Discussion wasn't allowed on this forum about it.

I would see nothing wrong with it, they are vandals and it is not art, I have yet to see any so called graffiti that doesn't resemble a steaming pile of dog sh1t. If we had proper law and order these things wouldn't happen, these type of people don't serve a place in any decent society.

Del2005

Why can't they just paint over the graffiti than waste time cleaning it? A lick of paint will cover the vandalism and is easy to do. For vehicles just vinyl wrap the panels that our tagged, shouldn't take too long to apply and have the vehicle back in service.

Del.Monte

zoobizoo wrote: »

I'm not defending their initial lack of action.

But think about it. A piece of a wall between Sandycove and Dun Laoghaire gets tagged.

We reports it? The driver who is concentrating on driving the train? It's not his job and how does he report it? Then who cleans it? IR hire in contractors to do this which is an extra cost.

And if the piece gets done again that week.... the whole process starts again.

That said, graffiti begets graffiti and a no tolerance approach keeps it at a minimum.

From memory, the station master (?) takes care of one end of the station to the other and the stations are generally graff free.

It should not be beyond train drivers to report what they see and as for Stationmasters - their race is run and some of the DART line stations are virtually unstaffed.

Effects

theguzman wrote: »

I would see nothing wrong with it.

So in your version of reality you condone on the spot death penalty for someone painting graffiti on a train. That just makes you sound like you're not right in the head.

Del.Monte

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0yvkPF2KN4

These scumbags are well organised if this video is anything to go by and somebody needs to be apprehended and made an example of in the courts. How difficult can it be to track them down via their postings on YouTube, quite apart from having people on the ground to catch them in the act. :mad:

Stephen15

Del.Monte wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0yvkPF2KN4

These scumbags are well organised if this video is anything to go by and somebody needs to be apprehended and made an example of in the courts. How difficult can it be to track them down via their postings on YouTube, quite apart from having people on the ground to catch them in the act. :mad:

IE need to be more protective as to whom get's a hi vis jacket with their logo on it. How did they get them coming to think about it on a number of occasions I've seen workers on building sites wearing high vis with IEs logo on it. I suggest you take down the link to their video as that could be seen as glorifying them. In the last few months I've noticed nearly every second DART set has graffiti on it.

whisky_galore

Stephen15 wrote: »

IE need to be more protective as to whom get's a hi vis jacket with their logo on it. How did they get them coming to think about it on a number of occasions I've seen workers on building sites wearing high vis with IEs logo on it. I suggest you take down the link to their video as that could be seen as glorifying them.

The builders could have been contractors working on IE sites and kept the vests after the job was done. The "artists" could well have picked them up lying around seemingly deserted IE depots as security seems to be lax to say the least. Doesn't take a genius to buy a plain vest and add fake branding anyhow.

Jamie2k9

I saw this video earlier this week and it exposes many serious security questions for IE management. Never mind the Graffiti but the fact they can access inside depots in brad daylight is very concerning and exposes staff and customers to serious risks. Hi vis jacket are largely irrelevant and not an excuse for such breaches.

It's a year old and the problem appears worse than even now so clearly nothing has changed.

Stephen15

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I saw this video earlier this week and it exposes many serious security questions for IE management. Never mind the Graffiti but the fact they can access inside depots in brad daylight is very concerning and exposes staff and customers to serious risks. Hi vis jacket are largely irrelevant and not an excuse for such breaches.

It's a year old and the problem appears worse than even now so clearly nothing has changed.

Not only does it expose the sets to graffiti but also potential more serious vandalism including arson