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Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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    #2432
    Hal3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 818 ✭✭✭Hal3000


    Parents and schools have so much to answer for in this case. As far as the school and the bullying, absolutely nothing will happen on that front. They'll say their hands are tied, because they now know we except that crap. If my daughter was bullied and I had proof I would picket the school everyday with a huge sign saying "Dangerous Environment for kids" until I got action...


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    #2433
    Dontfadeaway
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭Dontfadeaway


    Fakediamond wrote: »
    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    From all reports Ana was quite a strong girl, 5’ 8” and well built. It’s unlikely boy A could have overpowered her without the help of his accomplice who led her to him.

    There is no forensic evidence to back that up. There would have at least some hair or clothing fibres transferred between them. So even if he washed his clothes, the fibres/hairs would have been found at crime scene.

    Was there any evidence at the crime
    scene of boy A other than semen? I know they found most of the DNA at his house.


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    #2434
    Nodferatu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭Nodferatu


    Lets condemn the boys and call them scum etc.
    Also same people, lets protect them boys and ensure their safety and not post photos or names.


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    #2435
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,379 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    Not as easy as that to be a "person from god knows where".

    Not in Ireland, no. But I can't imagine them sticking round here whenever they are released (hopefully not for a long, long time ) given the anger felt towards them and given that the dogs on the streets of North Kildare and Lucan most certainly know who they are.


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    #2436
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Wombatman wrote: »
    People need to understand that for Boy B to be guilty of murder the prosecution must prove either:

    1. He participated in the act of killing
    or
    2. He helped Boy A with the murder in the full knowledge of what Boy A was about to do.

    From what I have read there is no proof for one.

    s?

    Participated in the act for sure by supplying the victim. Took her 3 km to meet Boy A. They could have met outside her house.
    Knew exactly what Boy A had planned and enjoyed it all.

    Even supplied the tape.

    Of course he’s guilty. Didn’t fool the jury thankfully.


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    #2437
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    washman3 wrote: »
    There's always one...:rolleyes:
    Maybe there was not many alternative schools in the option. The bullying how awful it is was exposed in the Syrian refugee kids in England and this school did nothing till the video hit social media and the reaction to it. The kid in this case had his arm broken previous to this & his sister was also being bullied to the extreme.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44qZK7uheSw
    The school needs to be fully exposed & there is a need for an independent inquiry to be made & heads need role if necessary. Its the only way of dealing with such. Its such a pity the so many kids that turned up at her funeral did not befriend her when alive. The hypocrisy of it all annoys me a lot


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    #2438
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    NeonWolf wrote: »
    I don't want to derail the thread but I have been thinking about how Paddy Jackson and his buddies were spared no anonymity and found innocent, yet these two absolute scumbags have their identities protected after taking a girls life in the most callous manner.


    Strange old world .

    different jurisdiction, different ages.


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    #2439
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    Not as easy as that to be a "person from god knows where".
    Not in Ireland maybe. It is elsewhere.


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    #2440
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    Nodferatu wrote: »
    Lets condemn the boys and call them scum etc.
    Also same people, lets protect them boys and ensure their safety and not post photos or names.

    Tbf its a bit weird to be posting pics of kids to the internet!


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    #2441
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    _blaaz wrote: »
    Tbf its a bit weird to be posting pics of kids to the internet!

    Probably the same people that were posting the video of a decapitated person on the M50 so not weird to them.


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    #2442
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    volchitsa wrote: »
    She'd been hit on the back of the head to start off. That alone would have made her much more vulnerable than if both had started off face to face and then it degenerated from there. So not impossible that a strong boy who knew some martial arts could have overpowered her on his own.
    It is odd the other boy seems to have stood there and done nothing, but there was none of his DNA on her, not identifiable anyway. That's actually why I wonder if he wasn't in fact the instigator.

    Tbh the thought of what this young girl went through is truely horrendous

    Afaik the Gardai reckoned she was attacked just inside the doorway of the room - so likely boy B led her there and Boy A attacked without warning wearing his zombie mask etc - she would have been both frightened and disoriented and at an immediate disadvantage.

    That said I'm glad that at least Boy A did get a good hiding from Ana despite all his 'protective' gear. It is truely sad that she didn't get free tbh.

    Boy B was there for sure. As to his role after - we dont know. I thought that Boy A would have came out and have given details of what B did

    The problem was that Boy A couldn't - he claims he was not there. If he had admitted the attack - then the gardai would have been able to properly investigate exactly which one was the true instigator

    Boy B is a lot more responsible for whatever happened than he has ever admitted imo. I believe boy B's backpack had spare clothes - perhaps why no DNA was found on him
    mrjoneill wrote: »
    He prob though Ana was at home alone & it was only chance her dad saw him. If her dad didn't see him the case could very well have the "disappeared " about it. Where exactly would the search begin? There is a possibility both of these scvmbags planned to go back bury the body which would have been found only accidentally & the forensics would have degenerated that they would have no value. Boy B prob had not the physical capacity to do it alone so he would not draw attention. I would look at him going to the house knowingly aware there was a kill plan going on as he furthering that agenda or led that agenda.

    I believe that could indeed be true. Ana fighting back left boy A with injuries that he could not hide. Both boys had to come up with a different plan by either pretending Ana was attacked by a stranger or that possibly they could hide the body. Neither scenario was possible in the end - so they believed that by not telling the Gardai where she was - they just might get lucky and get away with the murder ...


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    #2443
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    I'd say part of the reason B was there was to record the attack. Hence the phones were first to dissappear when the heat was on him.


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    #2444
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    pablo128 wrote: »
    I'd say part of the reason B was there was to record the attack. Hence the phones were first to dissappear when the heat was on him.

    I have no idea what phones you are talking about, there is no report of phones going missing after the fact.

    Boy B had no phone on him and used Ana's phone to check the time at one stage. They had no problem getting Boy A's phone and they found out what he had been searching for.


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    #2445
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    tuxy wrote: »
    I have no idea what phones you are talking about, there is no report of phones going missing after the fact.

    Boy B had no phone on him and used Ana's phone to check the time at one stage. They had no problem getting Boy A's phone and they found out what he had been searching for.

    Yeah that's what he said alright. He's also a proven liar. If you knew you had an incriminating video on your phone, would you hand it over to the Gardai, or even admit having a phone?


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    #2446
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    pablo128 wrote: »
    Yeah that's what he said alright. He's also a proven liar. If you knew you had an incriminating video on your phone, would you hand it over to the Gardai, or even admit having a phone?

    No but I also wouldn't go making up "facts" about a murder case when there was actual real evidence that was sufficient to get a conviction.

    We know that Boy B have been given two phones by his Dad but lost them well before the murder.


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    #2447
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    tuxy wrote: »
    No but I also wouldn't go making up "facts" about a murder case when there was actual real evidence that was sufficient to get a conviction.

    Tbf that theory deos seem alot more plausible that any explaination put forward by that boy b



    Its not a fact,but i wouldnt discount it either


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    #2448
    Happy4all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Happy4all


    The 2 phones Boy B lost, would it be possible to find out how recently they were used?


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    #2449
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    tuxy wrote: »
    No but I also wouldn't go making up "facts" about a murder case when there was actual real evidence that was sufficient to get a conviction.

    Makes no odds to me. They are already convicted and will hopefully serve a long sentence.

    You would be naive though to think that they planned all this and didn't record it.


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    #2450
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    tuxy wrote: »
    I have no idea what phones you are talking about, there is no report of phones going missing after the fact.

    Boy B had no phone on him and used Ana's phone to check the time at one stage. They had no problem getting Boy A's phone and they found out what he had been searching for.

    Boy B's father claimed his son had no interest in social media etc and had managed to lose two phones given to him ...

    Boy B maybe had this better thought out that his friend ...


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    #2451
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    Wombatman wrote: »
    People need to understand that for Boy B to be guilty of murder the prosecution must prove either:

    1. He participated in the act of killing
    or
    2. He helped Boy A with the murder in the full knowledge of what Boy A was about to do.

    From what I have read there is no proof for one.

    The IT article addresses point two.



    This is will be the main focus of Boy B's appeal

    From the IT Article


    All of Boy Bs testimony will become junk if it is accepted that "the trauma [by witnessing the attack on Ana] caused Boy B to tell the gardaí “untruths”.

    Boy B's conviction is entirely based on his own testimony.

    If there were text messages, recordings, notes etc between the two for example, detailing a pact or plan to kill Ana, this would be solid proof that Boy B knew.

    Why during deliberations did the jury ask for DVDs of seven of Boy B’s Garda interviews?


    Boy B enticed Ana to a derelict isolated house 3km from her home. It was not to a public park but an isolated house. Boy A, his friend is linked by strong forensic to the murder and we know from forensics he went equipped to kill. Boy B has a lot of explaining to do to establish his innocence in it. But he has lied & lied & the only reason for the repeated lying & the degrading of the victim is manipulation to get around his own active involvement. Over 2 days of questioning by experienced Gardai he did not crack but gave another lie to cover for external evidence. We do know he was present at the murder scene till the end as he drew on sketch where Ana's body was found. Ana's body was moved after she was killed as the blood spatter pattern indicates.


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    #2452
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    tuxy wrote: »
    No but I also wouldn't go making up "facts" about a murder case when there was actual real evidence that was sufficient to get a conviction.

    We know that Boy B have been given two phones by his Dad but lost them well before the murder.

    And how do we know they were lost well before the murder? Have we actual real evidence of this?


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    #2453
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    I've no idea what people are trying to get at with these phantom phones.
    There was enough evidence to convict both boys so unless someone thinks these phantom phones could be used to appeal the guilty verdict all you are doing is making useless speculation about a very sensitive murder trial.


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    #2454
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    tupenny wrote: »
    If you people lived locally to this you would not defend the parents

    Do you know them?


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    #2455
    Happy4all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Happy4all


    tupenny wrote: »
    If you people lived locally to this you would not defend the parents

    If they were covering up the truth and justice for a murdered girl? No

    If they were getting the child to face the truth and learn remorse? Yes


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    #2456
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    The whole thing is so shocking and sad and something that has ruined numerous lives....

    I just can't understand why another human wants to harm another especially in the case of this one....

    The young girl has lost what would hopefully have been a food life but was ruined with all the crap she had to put up with in school, I had to deal with very similar bullying daily but I've come out ok from it thankfully....

    Such a sad case and all I can say is I really feel for her and her family and condolences to all and her friends....

    My heart goes out to them....


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    #2457
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    tuxy wrote: »
    I've no idea what people are trying to get at with these phantom phones.
    There was enough evidence to convict both boys so unless someone thinks these phantom phones could be used to appeal the guilty verdict all you are doing is making useless speculation about a very sensitive murder trial.

    Yes. This is a discussion forum. We can speculate as it won't affect the verdict.


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    #2458
    Onthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭Onthebus


    Perhaps the judge should wait in the court room after passing sentence and hear what the parents of Boy A and Boy B are going to shout out to the court and investigating gardai.

    Then the judge should jail them too!

    You can see where the boys got it from!!


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    #2459
    Will I Am Not
    Registered Users Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Will I Am Not


    No chance in this day and age that he had a phone and gardaí couldn’t verify it.


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    #2460
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    .


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    #2461
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,866 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Lets put to bed any ambiguity about Boy B.

    "The doctrine of common purpose, common design, joint enterprise, or joint criminal enterprise is a common-law legal doctrine that imputes criminal liability to the participants in a criminal enterprise for all that results from that enterprise."

    In other words, without the participation of Boy B, Ana likely wouldn't have been in that building on that particular occasion. She was killed there, so Boy B goes down for common design.

    And the reason it is a conviction of Murder and not anything else for him?

    If you and I randomly cross paths in a chipper on a night out, get into a disagreement and it escalates into physicals and I fall and bang my head and die, you will be charged with Manslaughter, because there was no malice aforethought, you planned no part of it and that distinguishes murder from other unlawful killing.

    However, if you know me and decide for whatever reason that I warrant a beating for some apparent transgression and even though you don't intend me to die, but I do happen to die as a result, the charge will be murder. Death as a result of any preplanned harm, even that not intended to result in death, is Murder.

    And so whether or not Boy A did really intend Ana to die that day is irrelevant, he did plan and intend her to be harmed and because she died as a result, its murder. The contributory actions of Boy B, under common design, are assessed no differently and so its a murder for him too.

    I do hope detention is a very unpleasant experience for them both.


This discussion has been closed.
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