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Liberals who aren't liberal

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    #482
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I saw a clip of Ben Shapiro the other day, he summed it up well.

    He stated that there is a clear difference between a Liberal and a Leftist/Leftie. A Liberal is a good person who he disagrees with on political opinion. A Leftist on the other hand is a vocal minority lunatic who screams hatred, shouts down debate and tries to censor all who disagree.

    Some more intellectual gold from Ben Shapiro.


    You think that’s summed up well? You honestly think every left wing person is a lunatic?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #483
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    recedite wrote: »
    You're right on the first point, but you need to look in the mirror.
    I have read the bus attack thread, and none of those claims exist in it.
    The counter claims exist alright - there are plenty of strawman arguments in other words.

    You haven’t read that thread very well then. On the first page some commented that the bbc weren’t covering the “religious aspect”.

    On the 2nd page someone pointed out it was a robbery and the fact they were lesbians was incidental.

    Both complete bull****.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #484
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Nobelium wrote: »
    Note how you've tried to dodged the question. Care to actually answer it ?

    I did answer, if you’re not smart enough to understand the answer I gave, I’m not going to waste my time breaking it down for you.


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    #485
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    recedite wrote: »
    The first 2 links mention "religion". No mention of muslims. All the major world religions are classified as "homophobic" nowadays. Look at Israel Folau, the Australian Rugby player sacked for quoting on his own social media account a verse taken directly from the bible.

    Your 3rd link "4 lads arrested, one had been speaking Spanish. But sure, religion of peace.." is actually one of those strawman posts I referred to.
    If you can't even tell the difference, its no wonder you completely misunderstood most of the thread.

    Your 4th link.. ...is a very calm and reasonable post. It absolutely contradicts your claim that "It's an absolute train wreck of a thread".

    Anyway, if you have anything else to add, please take it to the other thread.

    You absolute what? How can you possibly ignore the very clear jabs at Islam there?

    You think those same comments would have been made if it was immediately confirmed to be a group of white Christians?

    Speaking of Israel Folau, I seem to remember an awful lot of the same people we're talking about on the bus attack thread decrying that a good Christian man should have his freedom of speech suppressed.

    Funny that.


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    #486
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,097 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Hedgelayer wrote: »
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Am I a liberal by your definition, or the real definition? If the former, you'll need to clarify what that actually is.

    Look it, I've not time for sociopathic conversation or dealing with narcissism.

    Trying to distort people's reality....

    Your definition or the real definition, that's a very sociopathic response to a question.....

    I think we're reading from a different script, if you cannot answer a simple question we'll leave it there sweetheart.

    Seeing as can't actually define the word 'liberal' as a noun, I think your right and we should.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #487
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,886 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Brian? wrote:
    You think that’s summed up well? You honestly think every left wing person is a lunatic?


    I'm not all the well to be fair, still a happy lunatic lefty though


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    #488
    Hedgelayer
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭Hedgelayer


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Seeing as can't actually define the word 'liberal' as a noun, I think your right and we should.

    I love when a discussion can end amicably.

    I totally agree with your response.

    Thank you.


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    #489
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    I used to think liberal just meant having a live-and-let-live attitude - more of a personal thing. Liberal in a political context is everyone to 'the left' of that little ****bird Ben Shapiro?


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    #490
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    Ben Shapiro is very interesting. I don't agree with him on most things. But he often less far right than people think.

    I have zero idea what I would call myself. And my opinions are not often based on logical but personal experience.

    Same here. I don't class myself as any title, nor do I want to. I would of course be classed by most as a right wing Conservative, yet many right wing Conservative would view me as too Liberal! And I'm perfectly happy with that opinion because I feel that sticking to the every right wing Conservative notion "just because" is a ridiculous standpoint.

    That's why I like Shapiro. I find that most of his views stem from a logical point of view rather than just looking at what the Liberal opinion is and doing the opposite for the sake of it, which far too many on the right seem to do.

    In other words Shapiro's views come from his logical opinion, not just driven by a hatred of the left. Of course many disagree with his logic, which is fine. But if it is based in logic, argue the logic. If it is based on a blind hatred of the left, what's the point.

    He also made a very good point (which I have argued with a few people since) about how too many on both the left or the right, are guilty of demonising the opposition. For example (I think he used Milo as an example) many on the right see those on the left as thinking and believing as they do because they are bad people.

    For example they say the left are in favour of abortion because they are sick and want to kill babies, which is just stupid. The fact is that they are pro choice because they don't see it as "killing babies", but that it is a fundamental woman's right.

    In the same way, many on the left see the right as horrible oppressive nazis who want to repress woman's rights. This is also daft. Anti abortion campaigners do so because they believe that abortion is the taking of an innocent life.

    So the reality is that both pro choice and pro life movements believe what they do out of good and sound motives. Neither side is evil or bad, they just have a difference of opinion which should be respected. So each side painting the other as "bad" is childish and illogical and each side should be able to have an adult conversation about it without resorting to abuse.


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    #491
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Brian? wrote: »
    Some more intellectual gold from Ben Shapiro.

    You think that’s summed up well? You honestly think every left wing person is a lunatic?

    Seriously? I make a point about how it is wrong to say that every left wing person is a lunatic and you interpret that as me saying every left wing person is a lunatic?

    There are people with right wing opinions. Then there are far right hateful pricks.

    There are people with left wing opinions. Then there are far left hateful pricks.

    Ben Shapiro made the point to his right wing listeners, that they should recognise that difference, rather than just painting all liberals with the loony brush.

    How is that not a positive approach?


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    #492
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Seriously? I make a point about how it is wrong to say that every left wing person is a lunatic and you interpret that as me saying every left wing person is a lunatic?

    There are people with right wing opinions. Then there are far right hateful pricks.

    There are people with left wing opinions. Then there are far left hateful pricks.

    Ben Shapiro made the point to his right wing listeners, that they should recognise that difference, rather than just painting all liberals with the loony brush.

    How is that not a positive approach?

    Liberals are not left wing. They're certainly further left when compared to the likes of Shapiro.

    There are plenty of sane left wing and even far left people. Yet you're happy for Shapiro to classify them lunatics.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #493
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Same here. I don't class myself as any title, nor do I want to. I would of course be classed by most as a right wing Conservative, yet many right wing Conservative would view me as too Liberal! And I'm perfectly happy with that opinion because I feel that sticking to the every right wing Conservative notion "just because" is a ridiculous standpoint.

    That's why I like Shapiro. I find that most of his views stem from a logical point of view rather than just looking at what the Liberal opinion is and doing the opposite for the sake of it, which far too many on the right seem to do.

    In other words Shapiro's views come from his logical opinion, not just driven by a hatred of the left. Of course many disagree with his logic, which is fine. But if it is based in logic, argue the logic. If it is based on a blind hatred of the left, what's the point.

    He also made a very good point (which I have argued with a few people since) about how too many on both the left or the right, are guilty of demonising the opposition. For example (I think he used Milo as an example) many on the right see those on the left as thinking and believing as they do because they are bad people.

    For example they say the left are in favour of abortion because they are sick and want to kill babies, which is just stupid. The fact is that they are pro choice because they don't see it as "killing babies", but that it is a fundamental woman's right.

    In the same way, many on the left see the right as horrible oppressive nazis who want to repress woman's rights. This is also daft. Anti abortion campaigners do so because they believe that abortion is the taking of an innocent life.

    So the reality is that both pro choice and pro life movements believe what they do out of good and sound motives. Neither side is evil or bad, they just have a difference of opinion which should be respected. So each side painting the other as "bad" is childish and illogical and each side should be able to have an adult conversation about it without resorting to abuse.

    Just to quickly clarify something, very little of Shapiro's beliefs stem from logic, rather his political and religious beliefs.

    For example, he's very much opposed to Gay Marriage as he believes the purpose of marriage is to have children, which is simply not true nor is it logical.


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    #494
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Just to quickly clarify something, very little of Shapiro's beliefs stem from logic, rather his political and religious beliefs.

    For example, he's very much opposed to Gay Marriage as he believes the purpose of marriage is to have children, which is simply not true nor is it logical.

    Not to mention his views on climate change.
    "People who'e homes are flooded can simply sell their homes".


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    #495
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Brian? wrote: »
    Liberals are not left wing. They're certainly further left when compared to the likes of Shapiro.

    There are plenty of sane left wing and even far left people. Yet you're happy for Shapiro to classify them lunatics.

    You're either deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying, or you're just not able to grasp it.

    I'll try one more time and then give up.

    There are lunatic fringes in damn near everything, OK? Football fans, political views, whatever.

    Many on the right classify everyone to the left of themselves as a "lunatic leftie". Still with me?

    Ben Shapiro, despite being a prominent right wing commentator, stressed that this is not a correct viewpoint. That the vast majority with Liberal or left wing opinions are]not lunatics, but of course (as with everything) there are those who take it to extremes.

    Those extremists, he classifies as "leftists", his definition, not mine, and those people he has no respect for.

    So neither he, nor me, believe that all on the left are lunatics. Only the most extreme qualify for that title.

    But if you're just determined to start a fight, go ahead but I'm not interested. I've been rational and calm, you're determined to twist my words and make out that I'm insulting people.

    The more you protest, the more it seems that you may be one of that vocal minority.

    You know, the one that isn't worth debating with because they speak from a point of hatred of the other side rather than logical debate?


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    #496
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    For example, he's very much opposed to Gay Marriage as he believes the purpose of marriage is to have children, which is simply not true nor is it logical.

    Do you think he believes what he believes because he is a bad person, or because HE believes it is true and logical?


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    #497
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Do you think he believes what he believes because he is a bad person, or because HE believes it is true and logical?

    I believe he believes it because his religious beliefs impact his views.

    It is in no way logical to claim marriage is purely for procreation, because we all know it isn't.


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    #498
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    For example, he's very much opposed to Gay Marriage as he believes the purpose of marriage is to have children, which is simply not true nor is it logical.

    PS have you a link on that? I've always heard him state that while his religious view on homosexuality is that it is sinful, he believes that people should be "free to sin if they choose" and that his opposition to gay marriage is because he believes that a mother and father provide a more balanced upbringing for a child.


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    #499
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I believe he believes it because his religious beliefs impact his views.

    It is in no way logical to claim marriage is purely for procreation, because we all know it isn't.

    See previous post, thanks.

    I think his thoughts on religious impingement was in regards to religious organisations etc being forced to perform gay marriages.

    Haven't heard the comment about procreation only.


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    #500
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Do you think he believes what he believes because he is a bad person, or because HE believes it is true and logical?

    'Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage'.

    That's sounds a lot like something a bad person would say.


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    #501
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    'Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage'.

    That's sounds a lot like something a bad person would say.

    Fair point, that's a crappy thing to say.

    Still not sure I'd call him a bad person over a sensationalist tweet but that definitely was too far.


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    #502
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Still not sure I'd call him a bad person

    Said he wouldn't attend his friend's wedding because he was gay.

    That's quite shitty isn't it?


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    #503
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Said he wouldn't attend his friend's wedding because he was gay.

    That's quite shitty isn't it?

    No, I wouldn't say it is.

    He is a man of faith, gay marriage is against his beliefs, so he wouldn't attend. I don't see a problem with that. If I was a gay man and getting married, and a friend respectfully said that he wouldn't attend, I would respect his freedom to believe what he wanted.

    And given that he was friends with the gay man in question, despite being well known for his religious belief, I suspect that the friend in question also respected it.


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    #504
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    He is a man of faith.

    Yeah 'faith' isn't an excuse for shitty behaviour.


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    #505
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    You're either deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying, or you're just not able to grasp it.

    I'll try one more time and then give up.

    There are lunatic fringes in damn near everything, OK? Football fans, political views, whatever.

    Many on the right classify everyone to the left of themselves as a "lunatic leftie". Still with me?

    Ben Shapiro, despite being a prominent right wing commentator, stressed that this is not a correct viewpoint. That the vast majority with Liberal or left wing opinions are]not lunatics, but of course (as with everything) there are those who take it to extremes.

    Those extremists, he classifies as "leftists", his definition, not mine, and those people he has no respect for.

    So neither he, nor me, believe that all on the left are lunatics. Only the most extreme qualify for that title.

    But if you're just determined to start a fight, go ahead but I'm not interested. I've been rational and calm, you're determined to twist my words and make out that I'm insulting people.

    The more you protest, the more it seems that you may be one of that vocal minority.

    You know, the one that isn't worth debating with because they speak from a point of hatred of the other side rather than logical debate?

    I was picking a fight with what you said:

    Liberals = moderate and sane.
    Leftists = lunatics.

    If that’s not what you said, grand. But you have to admit that wasn’t clear in your first post.

    There are lunatics on both sides. Unfortunately I’d include Ben Shapiro In that number. He doesn’t argue rational facts. He argues from the position of a right wing zealot and Orthodox Jew*.

    As stated his beliefs on gay marriage, reproductive rights and climate change are not rational. But I’m not sure how much he actually believes or how much he says to be a provocateur.

    * I have nothing against Jews. I don’t particularly trust devoutly religious people though as it’s an irrational belief.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #506
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/25712847277?s=21

    Ben also suggested the expulsion of Palestinians if a recall.


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    #507
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    recedite wrote: »
    You're right on the first point, but you need to look in the mirror.
    I have read the bus attack thread, and none of those claims exist in it.
    The counter claims exist alright - there are plenty of strawman arguments in other words.

    That post didn’t age well. That thread is all Muslim bashing now.


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    #508
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,224 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Brian? wrote: »
    I was picking a fight with what you said:

    Liberals = moderate and sane.
    Leftists = lunatics.

    If that’s not what you said, grand. But you have to admit that wasn’t clear in your first post.

    Fair enough, lost in translation. Apologies for being a sarcy git.

    Technically that definition of liberals and leftists is what I said, but a better explanation would be:
    Moderate and sane left wing = Liberals
    Lunatic left wing = Leftists

    Meaning that only that lunatic fringe that you and I both would label as lunatic, are what qualify as leftist.

    Although in fairness Shapiro's definition of where that lunatic fringe begins would likely be different to yours or mine.

    The point being that it annoys me when either side, left or right, paint moderates with the extremist brush and I was glad to see someone like Shapiro make the same point.


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    #509
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    That makes no sense to me, for me and most a liberal is purely a Yankee term and nothing to do with the Left


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    #510
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,632 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Actuality you know what to me liberal means right wing, just not conservative


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    #511
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Actuality you know what to me liberal means right wing, just not conservative

    Right economically but socially anti authoritarian. That’s what it used to mean.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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