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Hate crime? Really?

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    #932
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    In MY opinion, I'm not going to be playing your game, lads. My personal opinion on edge cases is entirely irrelevant. I'm not going to be the one making decisions about prosecutions or punishments.

    Nobody asked you to play agame.

    We just asked if you had the courage in your conviction to double down on your fantastic Wikipedia definition that you used for deflection.

    You don't.

    You admit your opinion is irrelevant.

    Remember that.


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    #933
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Nobody asked you to play agame.

    We just asked if you had the courage in your conviction to double down on your fantastic Wikipedia definition that you used for deflection.

    You don't.

    You admit your opinion is irrelevant.

    Remember that.
    Thanks for the reminder. My opinion on particular edge cases is indeed irrelevant, as is yours, as are all the other barstool experts here. The agenda being pushed is that these edge cases make it difficult or impossible to implement hate crime legislation.



    The reality of experience in the many countries that have implemented hate crime legislation



    4.1.1 European Union
    4.1.2 Andorra
    4.1.3 Armenia
    4.1.4 Austria
    4.1.5 Azerbaijan
    4.1.6 Belarus
    4.1.7 Belgium
    4.1.8 Bosnia and Herzegovina
    4.1.9 Bulgaria
    4.1.10 Croatia
    4.1.11 Czech Republic
    4.1.12 Denmark
    4.1.13 Estonia
    4.1.14 Finland
    4.1.15 Nepal
    4.1.16 France
    4.1.17 Georgia
    4.1.18 Germany
    4.1.19 Greece
    4.1.20 Hungary
    4.1.21 Iceland
    4.1.22 India
    4.1.23 Ireland
    4.1.24 Italy
    4.1.25 Kazakhstan
    4.1.26 Kyrgyzstan
    4.1.27 Russia
    4.1.28 Spain
    4.1.29 Sweden
    4.1.30 Ukraine
    4.1.31 United Kingdom
    4.1.31.1 Scotland

    4.1.32 Eurasian countries with no hate crime laws

    4.2 North America
    4.2.1 Canada
    4.2.2 United States
    4.2.3 Victims in the United States

    4.3 South America
    4.3.1 Brazil
    4.3.2 Chile

    4.4 Middle East


    clearly demonstrates that this is nonsense. Just like any other form of crime, these cases are managed by police, prosecutors and Courts without any huge difficulties. Remember that.


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    #934
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    clearly demonstrates that this is nonsense. Just like any other form of crime, these cases are managed by police, prosecutors and Courts without any huge difficulties. Remember that.

    Yeah. Great stuff.

    Do you think that calling someone fat is a hate crime? Yes or no.


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    #935
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    clearly demonstrates that this is nonsense. Just like any other form of crime, these cases are managed by police, prosecutors and Courts without any huge difficulties. Remember that.

    Actually is shooting "fatty" at on obese person worse than leapfrogging a small person?

    In your opinion. Not in law.


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    #936
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ugh. I meant shouting. Autocorrect


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    #937
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yeah. Great stuff.

    Do you think that calling someone fat is a hate crime? Yes or no.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Actually is shouting "fatty" at on obese person worse than leapfrogging a small person?

    In your opinion. Not in law.


    I'm working on a script to repost this link each time you ask the question, just to save some time. I'm not playing your game.


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    #938
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    each time you ask the question, just to save some time. I'm not playing your game.

    It's not a game. It's just calling you out. You smuggly referred people back to the wiki definition on multiple occasions but when you are asked if you stand by it it becomes a game.

    Get t'****.

    You've been shown up for what you are. Nobody here was playing a game except yourself.

    You lost.


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    #939
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's not a game. It's just calling you out. You smuggly referred people back to the wiki definition on multiple occasions but when you are asked if you stand by it it becomes a game.

    Get t'****.

    You've been shown up for what you are. Nobody here was playing a game except yourself.

    You lost.
    I've said multiple times that I stand by it. That doesn't mean I'm going to play your 'how many angels could be dancing on the head of a pin' game.



    Is it the perfect definition? I don't know - I'm not an expert on the matter. Could it be improved through the usual process of bringing legislation into existence - yeah, it probably could, as most things are.



    Does any of this matter on the principle of the importance and value of hate crime legislation? No, it doesn't.



    But congrats on getting through the 'there MUST be hate in hate crime' phase btw. That's one good thing that's come out of this thread.


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    #940
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    I've said multiple times that I stand by it. That doesn't mean I'm going to play your 'how many angels could be dancing on the head of a pin' game.



    Is it the perfect definition? I don't know - I'm not an expert on the matter. Could it be improved through the usual process of bringing legislation into existence - yeah, it probably could, as most things are.



    Does any of this matter on the principle of the importance and value of hate crime legislation? No, it doesn't.



    But congrats on getting through the 'there MUST be hate in hate crime' phase btw. That's one good thing that's come out of this thread.

    Your outrage is outrageous.


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    #941
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Your outrage is outrageous.
    But slightly less outrageous that your trolling. Is that all you've got?


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    #942
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    I've said multiple times that I stand by it. That doesn't mean I'm going to play your 'how many angels could be dancing on the head of a pin' game.

    Nobody asked you to play any game.

    I simply asked, in your opinion, if calling someone fat (which by the definition you have cited on multiple occasions is a hate crime) is a hate crime.

    You are unwilling to answer as you know it undermines your argument.


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    #943
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    In MY opinion, I'm not going to be playing your game

    Someone asks your opinion on a discussion boards. You won't give it. How weak.


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    #944
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    AJ Renko you should go into politics , you really can avoid a question.

    So again, Yes or No - is calling a fat person "fatty" a hate crime ?


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    #945
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Hector Savage wrote:
    So again, Yes or No - is calling a fat person "fatty" a hate crime ?

    Unfortunately he's painted himself into a corner. If he says no, he has undermined his definition of a hate crime, and if he says yes, he reveals that the label hate crime is nonsensical.

    But, "I'm not playing your game" in response to someone asking a question is even more damning.

    There's a lot to be said for holding your hands up and admitting you were wrong.


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    #946
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Although if I was a betting man, I'd imagine we are gonna see a double down of mad waffle


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    #947
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    AJ Renko you should go into politics , you really can avoid a question.
    You're absolutely right, I really can avoid this question, for the reasons the post below confirms.



    Deleted User wrote: »
    Unfortunately he's painted himself into a corner. If he says no, he has undermined his definition of a hate crime, and if he says yes, he reveals that the label hate crime is nonsensical.

    But, "I'm not playing your game" in response to someone asking a question is even more damning.

    There's a lot to be said for holding your hands up and admitting you were wrong.


    Yeah, it was fairly obvious where you were going with this from the first time you asked the question. Given that it took about a week for you to work out that the definition of hate crime does not include hate, I really don't have the patience to take you through this example, or the next edge case, or the next one.


    The idea that this is some kind of barrier to implementation of hate crime is just silly. Many countries across the world have hate crime legislation, and their legal systems don't get frozen into paralysis dealing with cases of people being called fat.



    Hate crime legislation works to protect vulnerable people in many countries round the world.


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    #948
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Andy, how about a crime is a crime or it's not ?
    Leave out this "hate" bollocks as it gets too complex ? Like I said what happens if I jump over a 5ft0 bloke (not a dwarf) ... or a 6ft6 lad with severe confidence issues ...

    Surely they are hate crimes too ??


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    #949
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Andy, how about a crime is a crime or it's not ?
    Leave out this "hate" bollocks as it gets too complex ? Like I said what happens if I jump over a 5ft0 bloke (not a dwarf) ... or a 6ft6 lad with severe confidence issues ...

    Surely they are hate crimes too ??

    That depends on if the person who got jumped over.
    Anyone apart from a white male is a hate crime


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    #950
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    So if a fat gut calls a thin guy " skinny cnut" in response to him asking "who ate all the pies you fat bastáŕd"?

    Are both hate crimes?


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    #951
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    That depends on if the person who got jumped over.
    Anyone apart from a white male is a hate crime


    The victimhood of the straight, white, middle aged male is a sight to behold.

    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Andy, how about a crime is a crime or it's not ?
    Leave out this "hate" bollocks as it gets too complex ?
    Not 'too complex' for the many other countries around the world that have hate crime legislation, funnily enough.

    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Like I said what happens if I jump over a 5ft0 bloke (not a dwarf) ... or a 6ft6 lad with severe confidence issues ...

    Surely they are hate crimes too ??
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    So if a fat gut calls a thin guy " skinny cnut" in response to him asking "who ate all the pies you fat bastáŕd"?

    Are both hate crimes?



    If only someone could have predicted further, even more silly, follow up questions.


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    #952
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Im just whiling away the time waiting for your opinion:
    A gay guy hits a straight guy.
    Is that a hate crime?

    Simple question. Yes/no, with an explanatory note would be great.


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    #953
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    The victimhood of the straight, white, middle aged male is a sight to behold.

    And my sjw bingo card is filled.

    You sir/xir are a disgrace.


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    #954
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Roger Hassenforder wrote:
    Im just whiling away the time waiting for your opinion: A gay guy hits a straight guy. Is that a hate crime?

    No. The straight guy is wrong because victim. Unless the straight guy is a minority. Then it's rock paper scissors. But the most important thing is that there is a victim. And it's because of white men. Middle aged ones apparently


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    #955
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Roger Hassenforder wrote:
    Im just whiling away the time waiting for your opinion: A gay guy hits a straight guy. Is that a hate crime?

    No. The straight guy is wrong because victim. Unless the straight guy is a minority. Then it's rock paper scissors. But the most important thing is that there is a victim. And it's because of white men. Middle aged ones apparently

    What if the straight guy had a disability?
    Like Tourettes?
    And was a traveller?


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    #956
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Im just whiling away the time waiting for your opinion:
    A gay guy hits a straight guy.
    Is that a hate crime?

    Simple question. Yes/no, with an explanatory note would be great.
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    What if the straight guy had a disability?
    Like Tourettes?
    And was a traveller?

    If only someone could have predicted further, even more silly, follow up questions.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    And my sjw bingo card is filled.

    You sir/xir are a disgrace.
    Personal attack? Have you run out of any rational argument?


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    #957
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Im just whiling away the time waiting for your opinion:
    A gay guy hits a straight guy.
    Is that a hate crime?

    Simple question. Yes/no, with an explanatory note would be great.
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    What if the straight guy had a disability?
    Like Tourettes?
    And was a traveller?

    If only someone could have predicted further, even more silly, follow up questions.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    And my sjw bingo card is filled.

    You sir/xir are a disgrace.
    Personal attack? Have you run out of any rational argument?

    Good man.

    Not for the first time, rides in on his high horse of moral indignation and vicarious outrage, in this instance deciding opportunistic scumbaggery by two scrotes "a hate crime", notwithstanding it being bereft of a modicum of ill feeling, much less "hate", and refuses to be drawn on a simple question because we all know the answers.

    Not all heros wear capes. The city is safe tonight.


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    #958
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Good man.

    Not for the first time, rides in on his high horse of moral indignation and vicarious outrage, in this instance deciding opportunistic scumbaggery by two scrotes "a hate crime", notwithstanding it being bereft of a modicum of ill feeling, much less "hate", and refuses to be drawn on a simple question because we all know the answers.

    Not all heros wear capes. The city is safe tonight.
    You might want to go back on the thread and see how the definition of hate crime doesn't include 'hate'. It took about a week for the Dunner to get his head around this, and I really don't have time to take others through it step by step. But that's the definition of hate crime.


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    #959
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Good man.

    Not for the first time, rides in on his high horse of moral indignation and vicarious outrage, in this instance deciding opportunistic scumbaggery by two scrotes "a hate crime", notwithstanding it being bereft of a modicum of ill feeling, much less "hate", and refuses to be drawn on a simple question because we all know the answers.

    Not all heros wear capes. The city is safe tonight.
    You might want to go back on the thread and see how the definition of hate crime doesn't include 'hate'. It took about a week for the Dunner to get his head around this, and I really don't have time to take others through it step by step. But that's the definition of hate crime.

    If we remind ourselves of AGS definition, which seems to be the first definition used, you'll see it actually does...

    A 'definition' , which with its emphasis on the victims perception of the crime, possibly explains your reluctance to give a straight answer.


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    #960
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,652 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    If we remind ourselves of AGS definition, which seems to be the first definition used, you'll see it actually does...
    First definition used? Used by who? For what?


    The standard Wiki definition of hate crime does not include hate. Any of the definitions in national legislation from the many other countries that have hate crime legislation do not include hate, though I don't claim to have done exhaustive research on this.


    I don't really have time to go back over that old ground again and again. There is no legal definition of hate crime in Ireland. Whatever definition the Gardai use is for their own purposes, and has no impact on how crimes are prosecuted or sentenced. It has all the hallmarks of something made up internally, rather than something that went through the rigour of policy development and legislation.


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    #961
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You might want to go back on the thread and see how the definition of hate crime doesn't include 'hate'. It took about a week for the Dunner to get his head around this, and I really don't have time to take others through it step by step. But that's the definition of hate crime.

    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


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