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Hate crime? Really?

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    #872
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,214 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    So you want crimes against straight people punished more severely than crimes against gay people?

    If I for example, assaulted someone who I didn't know was gay, how could I prove it wasn't a hate crime? Should I have to prove it? Should I get a harsher sentence than if I assaulted a straight man?

    What is to stop people lying about being gay in order to get people longer sentence harsher punishments?

    This is why we should all be equal in the eyes of the law.
    You honestly think people would lie about being gay in some bizarre attempt to prove a hate crime? Come on now.

    I would think in most cases it would be obvious the attacker has assumed the person being attacked is gay, it is likely they would be using homophobic slurs. Unfortunately I am someone who has experience with this kind of incident. If someone calls you a f#ggot and then slashes your face with a Stanley knife would you classify that as a hate crime? Or a homophobic attack? Or neither?


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    #873
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    gmisk wrote: »
    You honestly think people would lie about being gay in some bizarre attempt to prove a hate crime? Come on now.

    I would think in most cases it would be obvious the attacker has assumed the person being attacked is gay, it is likely they would be using homophobic slurs. Unfortunately I am someone who has experience with this kind of incident. If someone calls you a f#ggot and then slashes your face with a Stanley knife would you classify that as a hate crime? Or a homophobic attack? Or neither?

    What if the person just attacks you with no knowledge of your sexuality? Should the onus be on the garda to prove the crime was a crime of prejudice or should that be assumed unless proven otherwise?


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    #874
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    What if someone calls you a <derogatory term> and attacks you but you are not gay? Is it still a hate crime?


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    #875
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    stefanovich wrote: »
    What if the person just attacks you with no knowledge of your sexuality? Should the onus be on the garda to prove the crime was a crime of prejudice or should that be assumed unless proven otherwise?

    How do other countries with hate crime legislation manage this particular quandary?


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    #876
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    stefanovich wrote: »
    What if someone calls you a <derogatory term> and attacks you but you are not gay? Is it still a hate crime?



    How do other countries with hate crime legislation manage this particular quandary?


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    #877
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Numerous groups with suspect agendas.

    Yes, all those dreadful agendas looking for people with disabilities, people of different races and sexual preferences to not get the crap kicked out of them because of who they are.


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    #878
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Yes, all those dreadful agendas looking for people with disabilities, people of different races and sexual preferences to not get the crap kicked out of them because of who they are.

    Irish Council of Civil Liberties website. Typical anti-trump nonsense funded by Soros.


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    #879
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Irish Council of Civil Liberties website. Typical anti-trump nonsense funded by Soros.

    You should tell Gemma so she can do a livestream about it. What's that got to do with hate crime?


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    #880
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You should tell Gemma so she can do a livestream about it. What's that got to do with hate crime?

    You referenced them as a group who wants more hate crime legislation. The fact that it is a Soros funded organisation just proves my ulterior motive suspicions.


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    #881
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    stefanovich wrote: »
    You referenced them as a group who wants more hate crime legislation. The fact that it is a Soros funded organisation just proves my ulterior motive suspicions.

    The only thing it proves is your own personal inability to distinguish the message from the messenger.


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    #882
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    The only thing it proves is your own personal inability to distinguish the message from the messenger.

    It proves that your sources are unreliable and not to be trusted.


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    #883
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,214 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    stefanovich wrote: »
    What if the person just attacks you with no knowledge of your sexuality? Should the onus be on the garda to prove the crime was a crime of prejudice or should that be assumed unless proven otherwise?
    If the person calls you a f#ggot they have that "knowledge".
    If there is no indication the person was attacked for being gay, it is still an attack but no I wouldn't classify it as a hate crime


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    #884
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    If i call a gay guy 'fâggôt' and he punches me in the nose, is that a hate crime?


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    #885
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    i hate ye all

    is that a crime


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    #886
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,214 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    If i call a gay guy 'fâggôt' and he punches me in the nose, is that a hate crime?
    I have no idea but you would deserve the punch


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    #887
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    stefanovich wrote: »
    It proves that your sources are unreliable and not to be trusted.

    Sure thing - and same for all the legislators in all the governments round the world that have brought in hate crime legislation - are they all unreliable and funded by Soros too?


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    #888
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Sure thing - and same for all the legislators in all the governments round the world that have brought in hate crime legislation - are they all unreliable and funded by Soros too?

    Look, that wasn't a wild claim.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/soros-gave-50-000-to-civil-liberties-chief-59vwccvqg


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    #889
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Look, that wasn't a wild claim.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/soros-gave-50-000-to-civil-liberties-chief-59vwccvqg

    Are you avoiding the question about all the legislators in all the governments round the world that have brought in hate crime legislation - are they all unreliable and funded by Soros too?


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    #890
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    gmisk wrote: »
    I have no idea but you would deserve the punch

    A punch...for calling someone a bunch of sticks?



    But would it be a hate crime?


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    #891
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    A punch...for calling someone a bunch of sticks?

    Do you think that this is in some way clever, to make little of the reality of homophobic abuse for gay people ?
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    ?



    But would it be a hate crime?
    Why don't you go and apply it to the definition of hate crime and see how you get on?


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    #892
    Das Reich
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    Don't know where to post this, it would be considered hate crime? And what could be done against the parents of this children? They failed on educating them:

    https://m.facebook.com/groups/760782890634296?view=permalink&id=2255886441123926&anchor_composer=false


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    #893
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gmisk wrote:
    I would think in most cases it would be obvious the attacker has assumed the person being attacked is gay, it is likely they would be using homophobic slurs. Unfortunately I am someone who has experience with this kind of incident. If someone calls you a f#ggot and then slashes your face with a Stanley knife would you classify that as a hate crime? Or a homophobic attack? Or neither?

    What if someone called someone a fat prick and slashes him with a Stanley knife? Is that a hate crime?


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    #894
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Do you think that this is in some way clever, to make little of the reality of homophobic abuse for gay people ?

    Why don't you go and apply it to the definition of hate crime and see how you get on?

    Would it be a hate crime or not?
    Simple question.


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    #895
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What if someone called someone a fat prick and slashes him with a Stanley knife? Is that a hate crime?


    Do I need to post the link to the Wiki definition again? Maybe instead of repeatedly coming up with these scenarios, you could just apply the definition as a first step and see how that works out?

    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's impossible to prove in the majority of cases. For example, the leapfrogging incident was more an incident of opportunity rather than one born of hatred.
    At risk of repetition, hate crime does not necessarily have to be 'one born of hatred' as the various definitions that have been posted make clear. And again at risk of repetition, the many other countries worldwide that have hate crime legislation don't seem to find things to be 'impossible to prove in the majority of cases'.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    And my 'what ifs' aren't silly. They are decent points.
    They are fairly silly if you present them as huge barriers to hate crime legislation without checking how the many other countries with hate crime legislation manage these issues routinely.


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And my 'what ifs' aren't silly. They are decent points. If hate crime is treated more seriously than regular crime, it would be very troublesome.
    So you recognise the imbalance, that some people are more frequently victims of these crimes or more vulnerable to the impacts of these crimes, but you refuse any simple manage to readdress this balance because: 'equality' - is that it?



    Deleted User wrote: »
    Funnily enough I do. I don't do it to strangers but in my day to day encounters with colleagues and friends, some I do call the "despicable n word" and there are more than a few I call queer. I wouldn't say it to a stranger, in much the same way I wouldn't call a stranger a c*nt or a tosser but would have no problem saying it to someone who knew me and knew what way it was intended.
    Yeah, that's a fair point. In these cases, it's almost as if you're an 'honorary member' of the community in question and respected enough to be able to use their own internal term of abuse.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    No strawman there. I'm just saying that just because someone or some group is offended by a word, it doesn't make the word necessarily offensive. No word is offensive unless used in an offensive context.
    Isn't that the definition of 'offensive' ; "Causing someone to feel resentful, upset, or annoyed" - if it causes offence, it is, by definition, offensive. Why would someone explicitly choose to use a word that they know will cause offence to some people when other alternatives are easily available?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    No it isn't.

    I want people not to be raped. Therefore we need legislation put in place to stop that happening and punish people who do it.

    Oh wait we do?

    And it still happens?

    Well then, I guess some people will be rapists, some people will be racist and some people will be homophobic. We have legislation to punish people who commit these crimes. We don't need another label.


    The label is neither the problem nor the solution. It is one step along the road to rebalancing, so that people who are more frequent victims or more vulnerable to the impacts of crime come out the other end the same as their peers. What's not to like?


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    #896
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Would it be a hate crime or not?
    Simple question.
    Why don't you check the Wiki definition and work it out for yourself?


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    #897
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    Do I need to post the link to the Wiki definition again? Maybe instead of repeatedly coming up with these scenarios, you could just apply the definition as a first step and see how that works out?

    So yes. Calling someone fat is a hate crime?


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    #898
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    Why don't you check the Wiki definition and work it out for yourself?

    Examples of such groups can include, and are almost exclusively limited to: sex, ethnicity, disability, language, nationality, physical appearance, religion, gender identity or sexual orientation.[2][3][4] 


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    #899
    Hego Damask
    Registered Users Posts: 842 ✭✭✭Hego Damask


    I guess it would be a hate crime if the punched person was someone in the various victim classes that these nut jobs have dreamed up.

    What if a dwarf with learning disabilities screamed "******" in a gay guys face, and then the gay guy battered the dwarf!!!

    Now that's 2 "hate" crimes - so maybe they cancel each other out ?


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    #900
    Hego Damask
    Registered Users Posts: 842 ✭✭✭Hego Damask


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Examples of such groups can include, and are almost exclusively limited to: sex, ethnicity, disability, language, nationality, physical appearance, religion, gender identity or sexual orientation.[2][3][4] 

    So, if someone called me a straight white asshole that would be a hate crime too ... got it!


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    #901
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,535 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Hego Damask wrote: »
    Now that's 2 "hate" crimes - so maybe they cancel each other out ?


    Because that's how crimes usually work - A stabs B and B shoots A - so the crimes cancel each other out?


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