Hate crime? Really?

06-07-2019 4:16pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Ally?! You're very funny. There has been many threads usually started by opposers of trans rights with vitriol aimed at that tiny community.

They are legally recognised as their gender, it's the law. You're welcome to contact your local TD/political party(there are none on your side unfortunately!) to protest that law or even mount a court challenge if you wish as you are deeply affected by this issue.

Really Klaaaz? You find it hard to believe that I consider myself an ally?

I identify as an ally. Who are you to tell me I am not one? Is it a hate crime that you won't accept me for what I believe to be?

Bigot.

Nobody can tell me that I must accept a trans person to be whatever they choose. I am breaking no law by not accepting someones preferred pronouns. In much the same way, you don't need to accept that I indentify as an ally.

06-07-2019 4:17pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Right up there with

I'm not racist but...

and

I'm a cyclist myself but....

Or up there with... I identify as a woman so I am.

Double standards there Andrew.

Add another hate crime to the stat for ireland. People like you keep driving that statistic higher

06-07-2019 4:21pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Having dreadful experiences as a result of being trans, over and above all the other possible sources of dreadful experiences that we all face, is indeed isolated to trans people.

Certain trans people. Not every trans person experiences the same issues. They are indviduals. Don't pigeon hole them. That's patronising.

klaaaz · 06-07-2019 4:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Really Klaaaz? You find it hard to believe that I consider myself an ally?

I identify as an ally. Who are you to tell me I am not one? Is it a hate crime that you won't accept me for what I believe to be?

Bigot.

Nobody can tell me that I must accept a trans person to be whatever they choose. I am breaking no law by not accepting someones preferred pronouns. In much the same way, you don't need to accept that I indentify as an ally.

A so called ally that is opposed to those that defy the "gender norms", remember your very words Dunne from the other thread.

So you're not going to mountain a court challenge to the law and you have no political party in the Dail to support a challenge. Where does that leave you just to whinge on the sidelines that you have little support to overturn the gender recognition act?

AndrewJRenko · 06-07-2019 4:23pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Or up there with... I identify as a woman so I am.

Ally? Yeah sure.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

.

Add another hate crime to the stat for ireland. People like you keep driving that statistic higher

Perhaps you should report me to the relevant authorities, given that you're certain that all possible hate crimes are well covered by existing legislation.

06-07-2019 4:23pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How exactly did you work out that particular report was the source for the comments that you questioned?

Because I googled and thats what I found. I cited what report I found, perhaps you could enlighten me to a more reputable one?

There was no source given (which is my point).

For such a stupid remark as "Ireland has one of the highest rates of transphobic crimes" to be reported and expecting the reader to have to find out the exact source which can prove such a bogus claim, is bad reporting.

06-07-2019 4:30pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Ally? Yeah sure.

Perhaps you should report me to the relevant authorities, given that you're certain that all possible hate crimes are well covered by existing legislation.

Yes I am an ally. I will constantly strive to see that nobody is wrongly persecuted for who they are.

Actual hate crimes are covered. It's funny that they are hate crime is a term only applied when it's to someone who you deem to need your protection. That's wholly patronising and that kind of bigotry is about as far from an ally as you can be.

Perpertual victims will always be victims, regardless of how much of a white knight you deem yourself to be. But you have a mutual leech type relationship.

AndrewJRenko · 06-07-2019 9:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Because I googled and thats what I found. I cited what report I found, perhaps you could enlighten me to a more reputable one?

That's a remarkably poor research technique. Did the report you found contain an answer to the question of how the rates of transphobic crimes in Ireland compare to other countries? And no, I won't be doing your research for you, unless we can agree an hourly rate in advance.

Deleted User wrote: »

There was no source given (which is my point).

For such a stupid remark as "Ireland has one of the highest rates of transphobic crimes" to be reported and expecting the reader to have to find out the exact source which can prove such a bogus claim, is bad reporting.

Maybe you should be taking that up with the reporters, instead of adding it to the obvious chips on your shoulder for trans people.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am an ally. I will constantly strive to see that nobody is wrongly persecuted for who they are.

Have you asked any trans people to see if they consider your track record on this matter to be representative of what they would expect from 'an ally'

Deleted User wrote: »

It's funny that they are hate crime is a term only applied when it's to someone who you deem to need your protection. =

That's not how hate crime legislation works. People don't get to make individual decisions of they deem to need their protection. Vulnerable groups are set out in law. It's not a personal opinion.

Deleted User wrote: »

That's wholly patronising and that kind of bigotry is about as far from an ally as you can be.

Again, it would be interesting to see if any/many members of these vulnerable groups would concur with your opinion on this.

Deleted User wrote: »

Perpertual victims will always be victims, regardless of how much of a white knight you deem yourself to be. But you have a mutual leech type relationship.

A 'mutual leech' - you just get classier and classier.

06-07-2019 9:34pm

AndrewJRenko wrote:

That's a remarkably poor research technique. Did the report you found contain an answer to the question of how the rates of transphobic crimes in Ireland compare to other countries? And no, I won't be doing your research for you, unless we can agree an hourly rate in advance.

It's absolutely fine. I googled what their claim was, found a report that claimed to support it and commented how bad it was. I didn't expect or want you to do research for me. I guessed you would take it as gospel without doing any research of your own.

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Maybe you should be taking that up with the reporters, instead of adding it to the obvious chips on your shoulder for trans people.

No chips on my shoulders. I know there is no point in taking it up as they have their target audience of people like you that will lap it up wholesale. They won't change because they are wrong as long as they have white knights to champion their cause.

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Have you asked any trans people to see if they consider your track record on this matter to be representative of what they would expect from 'an ally'

I have. It's about 50-50. But I'm ok with that. I'm morally consistent.

AndrewJRenko wrote:

That's not how hate crime legislation works. People don't get to make individual decisions of they deem to need their protection. Vulnerable groups are set out in law. It's not a personal opinion.

That's not true.

AndrewJRenko wrote:

A 'mutual leech' - you just get classier and classier.

Nothing unclassy about it. You need people to be victims so you can be their shining white knight, they need shining white knights to look down on them as victims.

I just look at people as people. Every circumstance is different.

AndrewJRenko · 08-07-2019 11:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

It's absolutely fine. I googled what their claim was, found a report that claimed to support it and commented how bad it was. I didn't expect or want you to do research for me. I guessed you would take it as gospel without doing any research of your own.

Does it specifically state in that report that; "Ireland has one of the highest levels of transphobic hate crimes in Europe"

gormdubhgorm · 01-01-2021 4:41pm

This thread makes me think of the following:

Apparently, I had taken the wrong approach no matter what level of research I used. Also, repeating another's argument and dissecting it is a waste of time. As this only serves to reinforce the others argument - because the words are familiar.

I also happened to see Sinead Burke who popped up on kids TV on RTE, recently. Discussing difference to children etc.

Where she stated that her objective was to "rattle a few cages" as a activist something along those lines. I again thought of this thread. As the Irish Independent article (in the OP) clearly shows that objective in action. Get notice. It might not have been a hate crime. But only for this thread I would not have heard of her, or paid much notice. Objective achieved. She got noticed and furthered her personal brand/cause.

Hande hoche! · 01-01-2021 6:01pm

2019 was a simpler time.

AndrewJRenko · 04-01-2021 11:16am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I also happened to see Sinead Burke who popped up on kids TV on RTE, recently. Discussing difference to children etc.

Where she stated that her objective was to "rattle a few cages" as a activist something along those lines. I again thought of this thread. As the Irish Independent article (in the OP) clearly shows that objective in action. Get notice. It might not have been a hate crime. But only for this thread I would not have heard of her, or paid much notice. Objective achieved. She got noticed and furthered her personal brand/cause.

Awful to find activists being active isn't it? I much prefer the inactive activists who keep their heads down and don't say anything to anybody. It's much easier for me to keep my decade old prejudices on hand when no-one challenges them.

riclad · 04-01-2021 2:58pm

i think attacking someone purely because of their religion or nationality or race is a hate crime .
this is not a hate crime, its rude and obnoxious .
the gardai have to deal with drug dealers,burglars,violent crinimals etc
they have limited resources and time .they should not be involved with this .
this is 2021 , everyone has phones with video camera,s .
people are making stupid videos hoping to go viral everyday.
We have very few hate crimes in ireland, moslty basic crimes , robbing cars etc
if the gardai were involved everytime someone was insulted on social media they would hardly have time to deal with real crime .everyday theres someone on daily mail uk, random female celeb, complaining about getting insulted by trolls online .

riclad · 04-01-2021 3:19pm

There,s plenty of venues for people to voice their opinion,s ,twitter, forum,s , liveline etc without going to the gardai.
real life can be tough and awful sometime,s , its not the gardai,s job to get involved with matters like this .
ireland is an open free society, try living in china or russia as a minority or an activist and you,ll see what its like to try and get your voice heard .

AndrewJRenko · 04-01-2021 5:07pm

riclad wrote: »

i think attacking someone purely because of their religion or nationality or race is a hate crime .

But attacking someone purely because of their disability is NOT a hate crime?

riclad · 05-01-2021 3:43pm

Yes attacking someone because of their disability is a hate crime.
as far as i can tell this was not an attack, some kid jumped over her and
filmed her on a phone .
is was very rude and obnoxious , but does it count as an attack ?
I don,t think the gardai should be involved in this as they have real serious crimes to deal with where people get mugged, physically attacked etc

Hector Savage · 05-01-2021 3:47pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But attacking someone purely because of their disability is NOT a hate crime?

What about jumping over someone that's small ?
Not officially a dwarf, but someone thats 5ft 2 ... is that a hate crime ?

Where is the limit for hate crome/being rude .... or maybe it's all just being rude, hate is too subjective to call something a "hate crime", it;s a crime or it's not.

AndrewJRenko · 05-01-2021 6:52pm

riclad wrote: »

Yes attacking someone because of their disability is a hate crime.
as far as i can tell this was not an attack, some kid jumped over her and
filmed her on a phone .
is was very rude and obnoxious , but does it count as an attack ?
I don,t think the gardai should be involved in this as they have real serious crimes to deal with where people get mugged, physically attacked etc

Rude, obnoxious, dangerous, highly offensive - and yes, because of her disability.

What's your definition of 'real serious crimes'. No-one gets hurt in 99% of speeding cases prosecuted by Gardai, so should Gardai be involved in prosecuting speeding, or should they only deal with 'real serious crimes'? Is mugging a 'real serious crimes' compared to say assaults and murder?

AndrewJRenko · 05-01-2021 7:11pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

What about jumping over someone that's small ?
Not officially a dwarf, but someone thats 5ft 2 ... is that a hate crime ?

Where is the limit for hate crome/being rude .... or maybe it's all just being rude, hate is too subjective to call something a "hate crime", it;s a crime or it's not.

As you probably know, we don't have hate crime legislation in Ireland at present. In those countries where we they do have hate crime legislation, they seem to manage quandries like the one you mention every day in court, just like other tricky legal questions. It's not that big a deal.

Hector Savage · 06-01-2021 11:35am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

As you probably know, we don't have hate crime legislation in Ireland at present. In those countries where we they do have hate crime legislation, they seem to manage quandries like the one you mention every day in court, just like other tricky legal questions. It's not that big a deal.

OK so give me your opinion on this , is jumping over a lad thats 5ft 2 a hate crime ?

What about a 4ft dwarf ?

And what is the height limit (maybe anyone less than 5ft ?) that defines it as a "hate crime" v just being a rude obnoxious c*nt ....

What if I jump over a toddler ?

Potential-Monke · 07-01-2021 5:58am

Being a little bit pedant there...

There are very obvious physical differences between short people and people with dwarfism. And if you're jumping over children, you've a different issue there. And technically, 4'10" is the cut off, that's where dwarfism ends. So 4'10" is the cut off.

Hector Savage · 07-01-2021 4:04pm

Got it ... I jump over 4"11' person and I'm a rude dick head .

I jump over a 4"10' and it's a hate crime and puts me in the same boat as nazi and KKK bigots ...

okaaayy then ... can't see any issues with that at all going forward.

Potential-Monke · 07-01-2021 9:05pm

Only if that <=4'10" person is confirmed to have dwarfism after the fact.

The easiest way to avoid it is to just not jump over people. Just like the easiest way to avoid everything is to just not get involved. I'll bitch and moan on here about these special people having their feelings hurt because I didn't call them some made up word, but if I met someone in person and they were being insistent about using their certain word, I'd just leave. Not worth the hassle. But I've loads of spare time on my hands so I get involved in these threads just to pass the time. And usually only when I'm working, when I'm not I've better things to be doing.

AndrewJRenko · 07-01-2021 9:18pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

OK so give me your opinion on this , is jumping over a lad thats 5ft 2 a hate crime ?

What about a 4ft dwarf ?

And what is the height limit (maybe anyone less than 5ft ?) that defines it as a "hate crime" v just being a rude obnoxious c*nt ....

What if I jump over a toddler ?

For a start, I'd suggest that you do a bit of reading on appropriate terminology.

On the broader issue, I don't know the answer, but it seems to work fine in the many other countries that have hate crime legislation, so the implication that these hypotheticals are some kind of barrier to hate crime legislation doesn't stand up.

07-01-2021 9:30pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Only if that <=4'10" person is confirmed to have dwarfism after the fact.

The easiest way to avoid it is to just not jump over people. Just like the easiest way to avoid everything is to just not get involved. I'll bitch and moan on here about these special people having their feelings hurt because I didn't call them some made up word, but if I met someone in person and they were being insistent about using their certain word, I'd just leave. Not worth the hassle. But I've loads of spare time on my hands so I get involved in these threads just to pass the time. And usually only when I'm working, when I'm not I've better things to be doing.

In principle I agree with you, just don't be a dick, and there should be some crime of being a dickhead.

But the problem with law is at what point does something become a 'hate crime' v a 'crime'.
Assuming all people are equal, why treat crimes against some more harshly than others.

Punch someone in the face , I think we all agree is a crime. Punching a gay person does it make it worse make? (Non aggravated) robbing someone is bad, robbing an old lady is (arguably) worse, but does the law not treat them the same?

Is robbing a blind wheelchair using black person a hate crime or just an easier victim?

So for this example, to prove it was a hate crime, does the state need to provide evidence the defendant was reckless as regards the victims height or something, and set the bar at 4 10 and below, its a hate crime. At 4 11 its not.
For arguments sake, if you thought the person you were jumping was 5', but turned out to be someone with dwarfism in heels, have you actually committed a hate crime or just a crime?

I just think the sanctions for all crimes should be much stronger.

AndrewJRenko · 07-01-2021 10:01pm

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

In principle I agree with you, just don't be a dick, and there should be some crime of being a dickhead.

But the problem with law is at what point does something become a 'hate crime' v a 'crime'.
Assuming all people are equal, why treat crimes against some more harshly than others.

Punch someone in the face , I think we all agree is a crime. Punching a gay person does it make it worse make? (Non aggravated) robbing someone is bad, robbing an old lady is (arguably) worse, but does the law not treat them the same?

Is robbing a blind wheelchair using black person a hate crime or just an easier victim?

So for this example, to prove it was a hate crime, does the state need to provide evidence the defendant was reckless as regards the victims height or something, and set the bar at 4 10 and below, its a hate crime. At 4 11 its not.
For arguments sake, if you thought the person you were jumping was 5', but turned out to be someone with dwarfism in heels, have you actually committed a hate crime or just a crime?

I just think the sanctions for all crimes should be much stronger.

That's not how hate crimes work.

It's not a matter of punching a gay person. It is a matter of punching a person because they are gay. That's the difference.

If we do get hate crime legislation here, and it is based on the functional definition of disability used in the Equal Status Acts, there will be no dancing round on the head of a pin arguing about whether the victim was 4.10 or 4.11

07-01-2021 10:55pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's not how hate crimes work.

It's not a matter of punching a gay person. It is a matter of punching a person because they are gay. That's the difference.

If we do get hate crime legislation here, and it is based on the functional definition of disability used in the Equal Status Acts, there will be no dancing round on the head of a pin arguing about whether the victim was 4.10 or 4.11

Should there be a sanction difference between punching a chap because he's gay as opposed to punching a guy who's gay. I don't think so, both are assault.

Mens rea & actus rea in the former, but it will be difficult to prove mens rea beyond reasonable doubt only in very few circumstances. I.e. guy with history of threatening behaviour etc.
So IMO this would be prosecuted as assault.

If the hate crime is punching a gay person because they're gay, does the assailant have to know they're gay, and does the state have to prove this.

Heads of pins is where the craic is at in the courts.

Potential-Monke · 07-01-2021 11:28pm

To briefly answer the above, yes, the state has to prove that the persons assault was as a result of the victim being whatever they are. So in the example, just walking up and punching a gay person is not a hate crime. Walking up and punching them while shouting gay slurs is a hate crime, because the assault is accompanied or follows the hate speech. Similarily, if someone was told that x person was gay, and that someone then punched x for no reason, it could be construed as a hate crime as nothing happened before they found out that x was gay.

Not really up to us on boards to decide though, would be up to the state/DPP. In my time I arrested someone for very loudly roaring racist abuse at a black lad. She was well pished and obviously something happened, but as it was in public in front of loads of people, I had to choice to arrest her. Wanted a charge for the racism, but it was only pursued as a normal drunk and disorderly offence. Wasn't my choice. At the end of the day, the Garda just gathers the evidence and it's up to Garda Management and the DPP to decide what to go with. The Garda can make a recommendation, but it can be over ruled.

07-01-2021 11:32pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

To briefly answer the above, yes, the state has to prove that the persons assault was as a result of the victim being whatever they are. So in the example, just walking up and punching a gay person is not a hate crime. Walking up and punching them while shouting gay slurs is a hate crime, because the assault is accompanied or follows the hate speech. Similarily, if someone was told that x person was gay, and that someone then punched x for no reason, it could be construed as a hate crime as nothing happened before they found out that x was gay.

Not really up to us on boards to decide though, would be up to the state/DPP. In my time I arrested someone for very loudly roaring racist abuse at a black lad. She was well pished and obviously something happened, but as it was in public in front of loads of people, I had to choice to arrest her. Wanted a charge for the racism, but it was only pursued as a normal drunk and disorderly offence. Wasn't my choice. At the end of the day, the Garda just gathers the evidence and it's up to Garda Management and the DPP to decide what to go with. The Garda can make a recommendation, but it can be over ruled.

Ah but what else would we be doing in a lock down only shooting the breeze

Hate crime? Really?

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