Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

Bannasidhe · 06-06-2019 08:23PM

smacl wrote: »

Just knocking back my first beer of the weekend

On a Thorsday*??!?! :eek:

*checks it is actually Thorsday and I haven't misplaced a day somewhere... possibly left it in my other pants or the boot of my car...

Timberrrrrrrr · 06-06-2019 08:24PM

smacl wrote: »

And if such a being perhaps dwelt under said bridge and one were to walk across it, important not to inadvertently get knocked off by being conned into some back seat modding. Some types will go to great lengths to sow discord. Just knocking back my first beer of the weekend and thinking out loud here, have a good one yourself.

I'm avoiding the fridge as there are 6 cold ones in there since sunday

Enjoy.

smacl · 06-06-2019 09:40PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

On a Thorsday*??!?! :eek:

*checks it is actually Thorsday and I haven't misplaced a day somewhere... possibly left it in my other pants or the boot of my car...

Nah, all me. Worked through last weekend so making up a bit early. Probably a good time to stop typing...

Kidchameleon · 07-06-2019 11:20AM

Does anyone have any thoughts on the actual situation? Who is responsible? Should anyone be sacked? Should there be compensation etc etc

nozzferrahhtoo · 07-06-2019 11:38AM

Not sure there is much useful to say. We all knew cases like this would happen I think. Now one has happened.

If we allow people to choose abortion..... and they are making that choice based on medical information...... then statistically it is inevitable that someone somewhere will make that decision on information that was erroneous or misleading. This happens in all medicine. Abortion is not special in this regard in any way.

I do not think we automatically have to go looking for someones head in that either. Unless good reason is unearth to do so. Generally the best we can do is take each unfortunate and sad case like this and learn from it. Ask how it happened and use that knowledge to ask how we can minimise, or wholly prevent, it from happening again.

People make mistakes all the time. And that experience leads them to prevent making mistakes in the future. So I have never understood the need to fire people who make mistakes. All you are doing is replacing people who have experience of that mistake.... with new people who do not. That appears to me to be a system therefore designed to maximise the possibility the mistake will happen again.

volchitsa · 07-06-2019 11:50AM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Does anyone have any thoughts on the actual situation? Who is responsible? Should anyone be sacked? Should there be compensation etc etc

Shouldn't we wait to have a lot more information than has currently been made public before making our minds up?

If it's correct that the medical staff told the couple that there was no point in waiting for the final results then clearly somebody made a massive error of judgment. Was that because they weren't properly trained or is there some other explanation? It seems bizarre that the health services should be funding tests which their own staff believe are pointless - or is it a question of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing?

So assuming the couple's version is correct, there are still a number of questions to be answered before we know who exactly was responsible. On the face of it, I do think it seems like a c0ck-up by someone in the hospital though. In which case - like any other case of possible gross negligence - it should be properly and impartially investigated.

Plumbthedepths · 07-06-2019 12:25PM

Kidchameleon wrote:

Does anyone have any thoughts on the actual situation? Who is responsible? Should anyone be sacked? Should there be compensation etc etc

Why not answer your own questions first, what are your thoughts. Do you feel it was a terrible mistake or deliberate. Why should dismissal be even suggested. Compensation for what? The couple made a decision on information presented to them. Ultimately how to proceed was their choice.

Kidchameleon · 08-06-2019 09:59AM

I do know of one situation where a friend of friend was told there was no heart-beat (she was told this on two consecutive checkups) she "felt" the doctors were wrong and got a scan done privately only to find out everything was fine. This stuff does happen. I cant understand why the couple in the current situation did not wait the two weeks for the final test to come through. I cant understand why medical staff would advise abortion before all data was available. It doesnt add up. It appears from the limited amount of information we have that the couple blame the medical staff for the situation. I agree that it was their choice at the end of the day

08-06-2019 10:12AM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I do know of one situation where a friend of friend was told there was no heart-beat (she was told this on two consecutive checkups) she "felt" the doctors were wrong and got a scan done privately only to find out everything was fine. This stuff does happen. I cant understand why the couple in the current situation did not wait the two weeks for the final test to come through. I cant understand why medical staff would advise abortion before all data was available. It doesnt add up. It appears from the limited amount of information we have that the couple blame the medical staff for the situation. I agree that it was their choice at the end of the day

OK so you know one person who gave birth at < 24 weeks and now has a healthy child and now you know another person who was twice told that there was no heart beat but it turned out everything was fine. That's some odds.

Bannasidhe · 08-06-2019 10:33AM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I do know of one situation where a friend of friend was told there was no heart-beat (she was told this on two consecutive checkups) she "felt" the doctors were wrong and got a scan done privately only to find out everything was fine. This stuff does happen. I cant understand why the couple in the current situation did not wait the two weeks for the final test to come through. I cant understand why medical staff would advise abortion before all data was available. It doesnt add up. It appears from the limited amount of information we have that the couple blame the medical staff for the situation. I agree that it was their choice at the end of the day

As this looks likely to be the subject of court case and possibly an inquiry you will have to content yourself with limited amounts of information.
As will we all so I am not sure what you wish to achieve here. Everyone - bar yourself with your insensitive "they'll get over it" comments- has said this is a tragedy. How it occurred has yet to be determined.

But I am sure the pro-life advocates will be along to reassure everyone, yet again, that Ireland has one of the best maternity services in the world and hardly ever makes mistakes as they were at pains to point out during the referendum campaign.

splinter65 · 08-06-2019 12:14PM

How long after the abortion did the final “all clear” results come?

splinter65 · 08-06-2019 12:31PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As this looks likely to be the subject of court case and possibly an inquiry you will have to content yourself with limited amounts of information.
As will we all so I am not sure what you wish to achieve here. Everyone - bar yourself with your insensitive "they'll get over it" comments- has said this is a tragedy. How it occurred has yet to be determined.

But I am sure the pro-life advocates will be along to reassure everyone, yet again, that Ireland has one of the best maternity services in the world and hardly ever makes mistakes as they were at pains to point out during the referendum campaign.

As a pro life person I personally don’t consider abortion services to be anything to do with maternity services. Maternity services cover the care of pregnant mother and unborn baby, the delivery of the baby and immediate aftercare for both for 6 weeks.
I can’t fit the deliberate ending of a pregnancy for any other reason other then the threat to the life of the mother into that scenario.
In 2017 Ireland was ranked by WHO 22 out of 179 countries for maternity care, ahead of the UK at 24. Of course it’s not good enough but it’s not shameful.
Presumably pro abortion advocates expect us to rise to top ten now that we have legalized abortion?

Bannasidhe · 08-06-2019 12:37PM

splinter65 wrote: »

As a pro life person I personally don’t consider abortion services to be anything to do with maternity services. Maternity services cover the care of pregnant mother and unborn baby, the delivery of the baby and immediate aftercare for both for 6 weeks.
I can’t fit the deliberate ending of a pregnancy for any other reason other then the threat to the life of the mother into that scenario.
In 2017 Ireland was ranked by WHO 22 out of 179 countries for maternity care, ahead of the UK at 24. Of course it’s not good enough but it’s not shameful.
Presumably pro abortion advocates expect us to rise to top ten now that we have legalized abortion?

My point was that Kidchameleon seems intent on defending health care workers when no-one here is attacking them.
The tests on the fetus would have been carried out under the auspices of maternity services.
The crux of the matter is the tests and what information was made available and when to this poor couple that lead them to take the decision to terminate the pregnancy.

Timberrrrrrrr · 08-06-2019 01:29PM

splinter65 wrote: »

As a pro life person I personally don’t consider abortion services to be anything to do with maternity services. Maternity services cover the care of pregnant mother and unborn baby, the delivery of the baby and immediate aftercare for both for 6 weeks.
I can’t fit the deliberate ending of a pregnancy for any other reason other then the threat to the life of the mother into that scenario.
In 2017 Ireland was ranked by WHO 22 out of 179 countries for maternity care, ahead of the UK at 24. Of course it’s not good enough but it’s not shameful.
Presumably pro abortion advocates expect us to rise to top ten now that we have legalized abortion?

You're kinda contradicting yourself there when you use the terms maternity care/services

splinter65 · 08-06-2019 01:34PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My point was that Kidchameleon seems intent on defending health care workers when no-one here is attacking them.
The tests on the fetus would have been carried out under the auspices of maternity services.
The crux of the matter is the tests and what information was made available and when to this poor couple that lead them to take the decision to terminate the pregnancy.

The parents appear to be placing the entire responsibility for the disaster firmly in the lap of the hospital though.
I think kidchameloen is very badly making the point that the choice to have the abortion was theirs and theirs alone, irregardless of the medical evidence or/and advice offered to them. And that blaming the hospital for providing services is not going to lead anywhere. If they knew that a final definitive diagnosis was going to be available soon, then why not just wait?

Bannasidhe · 08-06-2019 01:40PM

splinter65 wrote: »

The parents appear to be placing the entire responsibility for the disaster firmly in the lap of the hospital though.
I think kidchameloen is very badly making the point that the choice to have the abortion was theirs and theirs alone, irregardless of the medical evidence or/and advice offered to them. And that blaming the hospital for providing services is not going to lead anywhere. If they knew that a final definitive diagnosis was going to be available soon, then why not just wait?

At this point it is all just conjecture - while agreeing that yes, ultimately the decision to terminate was the parents - as we do not know what advice was given to them.

Kidchameleon · 08-06-2019 03:34PM

splinter65 wrote: »

How long after the abortion did the final “all clear” results come?

It is in an article I posted up thread a little bit. On mobile at the moment so cant get it again. I beleive it was about two weeks

gctest50 · 08-06-2019 03:46PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

..............

It doesnt add up. It appears from the limited amount of information we have that the couple blame the medical staff for the situation. I agree that it was their choice at the end of the day

Damn right it doesn't add up

What age are the couple ?

Kidchameleon · 08-06-2019 03:58PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Damn right it doesn't add up

What age are the couple ?

Unknown. Hopefully young enough to try again

aloyisious · 09-06-2019 10:06PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Unknown. Hopefully young enough to try again

Yes indeedy. I think you speak for us all here.

Cabaal · 11-06-2019 12:40PM

Given the party's opposition to all change in Ireland including repeal of the 8th I see this as great news

:D:D:D:D

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/06/11/maybe-the-message-i-have-is-not-the-change-people-want/

John Leahy, former leader of Renua

“The background is that I was a manger over a team that prepared 3 years to for an election and we got nobody elected.

“Do I spent another two or three years at? I haven’t made an impression in three years. Maybe the message I have is not the change that people want,” Mr Leahy said.

He informed a meeting of the party’s executive last night that he intends to return to the independent ranks of Offaly County Council. He has already struck a deal to support Fianna Fáil in his local authority and will be Lea Cathaoirleach for the next 12 months.

He'll fit right in with FF though...

Hotblack Desiato · 11-06-2019 12:44PM

Cabaal wrote: »

“Do I spent another two or three years at? I haven’t made an impression in three years. Maybe the message I have is not the change that people want,” Mr Leahy said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XM_3zf6mPc

Igotadose · 11-06-2019 01:17PM

Unfortunately, Aontu is still with us and had a few candidates elected (3 out of 53 in the locals.) And Peadar Toibin's still in the Dail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aont%C3%BA#Elections

11-06-2019 01:40PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XM_3zf6mPc

Love that film, it's one of those that keeps on giving.

Cabaal · 11-06-2019 02:25PM

Igotadose wrote: »

Unfortunately, Aontu is still with us and had a few candidates elected (3 out of 53 in the locals.) And Peadar Toibin's still in the Dail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aont%C3%BA#Elections

Renue 2.0 will die off eventually,

Like Renua, Renua 2.0 was founded based on one person throwing their toys out of the pram because they didn't like women being given additional rights when it comes to abortion.

The fact that they make their pro-life stance one of their core positions as a party means the majority of the country won't agree with them especially younger voters who voted for repeal.

Igotadose · 12-06-2019 06:42PM

Looks like Aontu's own Peadar Toibin's looking to exploit those poor people in their suit vs. the NMH to his own political gain. Not surprising:
https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0612/1055002-holles-street/

Hotblack Desiato · 12-06-2019 06:53PM

Some disgraceful allegations there.

Would he dare say that outside of the Dail?

Kidchameleon · 12-06-2019 09:04PM

This is getting stranger by the day

Cabaal · 12-06-2019 09:25PM

He'll say anything to further Renua 2.0 and get media attention , he's scared of his **** it'll go the way of Renua 1.0

aloyisious · 13-06-2019 12:16AM

Igotadose wrote: »

Looks like Aontu's own Peadar Toibin's looking to exploit those poor people in their suit vs. the NMH to his own political gain. Not surprising:
https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2019/0612/1055002-holles-street/

Best thing for Simon Harris to do is ask the TD to go to the Gardaí with the names of the health professional he's alleging have conflict of interest or "provide" him or HIQAA with the names under Dail privilege. If he doesn't take up either option, call him out on his failure. Responses from the couple or their legal Rep to media questions may give better information.

Edit. It seems Peadar based his Dail statement covering alleged illegalities on what he claimed the couple told him so the case of Peadar making a report to anyone on said allegations won't arise as they seem to be based on 3rd party statements.

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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