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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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Comments

  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Honestly I think the United States Of America is a very misleading name,
    They are anything but united.

    Imagine if Waterford had different health, criminal and employment laws to Dublin.
    Yet thats what the USA is like when it comes to different states.

    Its nuts


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Honestly I think the United States Of America is a very misleading name, They are anything but united.
    One could say the same about the United Kingdom.

    Perhaps it's like the word "Democratic" in DDR (aka, German Democratic Republic) and DPRK (Democratic People's Republic of Korea) - more notable for its use in its absence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,839 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Honestly I think the United States Of America is a very misleading name,
    They are anything but united.

    Imagine if Waterford had different health, criminal and employment laws to Dublin.
    Yet thats what the USA is like when it comes to different states.

    Its nuts

    Funnily enough, I googled on the status of the US electoral college in the constitution in respect to the outcome of the last election- to see if it could be ditched before the next election - and found references to two versions of the term "United States". The first used it in reference to how the electoral college could be scrapped by votes of the states and/or the US voter by referendum, and the 2nd was that the "United States" referred to the states who advocated for the setting-up of the college and were assisted by it when their voters power was affected by the other states with greater voter populations. I haven't got the links anymore as I deleted them, cos the debate here advanced, but the info is still out there on the net.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    US abortion policy is 'extremist hate' and 'torture', says UN commissioner

    Trump administration’s ban on terminations is a crisis directed at women, warns Kate Gilmore

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/jun/04/us-abortion-policy-extremist-hate-torture-un-commissioner-kate-gilmore

    I'd expect the Trump government to threaten the UN now...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cabaal wrote: »
    I'd expect the Trump government to threaten the UN now...
    #45 has already threatened the UN across a few fronts, mostly financial, in which he tried, and seems to have succeeded, in cutting off various classes of funding to the UN.

    Last month, he nominated Kelly Craft to be the US ambassador to the UN. Ms Kelly, together with her husband, are prominent donors to the Republican party.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/5/2/18514139/kelly-craft-un-ambassador-trump-haley

    Luckily for #45, Ms Kelly appears to have a soft spot for climate science deniers.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,635 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Cabaal wrote: »

    Problem with the pol quoted in the article, is there's nothing the Trump admin can do to individual states regulating their own states. If the power in question is not explicitly devolved to Congress, it stays with the states.
    You can take the Trump admin to task to things they do (like various shenanigans with funding and reproductive health for foreign governments,) but the UN can't expect the US Federal government to dictate to the States, directly.

    Trump doesn't like anything but Trump and those that support Trump. The UN already has laughed in his face. At best he'll ignore this article until the UN actually does something about it like draft a resolution or whatever.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Its crazy what #45 is doing, but he does have a mandate from his people at the end of the day. Hopefully #45's damage will be minimal and #46 will have views more in line with those of say, #44.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,208 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Mandate? More people voted for his opponent than him.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Mandate? More people voted for his opponent than him.


    Yes, in every sense of the word, he has a mandate, democratically given to him by his people. That's all I will say on that as it is off topic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Its crazy what #45 is doing, but he does have a mandate from his people at the end of the day. Hopefully #45's damage will be minimal and #46 will have views more in line with those of say, #44.

    Trump will more then likely be #46 though. PP has him the evens fav.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Trump will more then likely be #46 though. PP has him the evens fav.


    Well #44 had two terms and was #44 for both. Id imagine #45 will get a second term and he will remain #45 for the second. #46 will be elected in 2024.

    I dont agree with #45's stance on abortion but as far as I know, he always had that stance. I think Hilary flip flopped on abortion though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Well #44 had two terms and was #44 for both. Id imagine #45 will get a second term and he will remain #45 for the second. #46 will be elected in 2024.

    I dont agree with #45's stance on abortion but as far as I know, he always had that stance. I think Hilary flip flopped on abortion though.

    That’s interesting. I didn’t realize that he would stay #45 till 2024. This referring to the president by his position in the sequence is quite new I think. It’s not applicable to any other head of state. How did it start?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Well #44 had two terms and was #44 for both. Id imagine #45 will get a second term and he will remain #45 for the second. #46 will be elected in 2024.

    I dont agree with #45's stance on abortion but as far as I know, he always had that stance. I think Hilary flip flopped on abortion though.

    You should read up on Trump's changing views on abortion, then. You might find it interesting (he was once very pro-choice, in his own words).


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    he always had that stance. I think Hilary flip flopped on abortion though.

    Except you are wrong,
    Think you'll find Trump has only changed his views to get votes with the religious conservative right

    He was pro-choice previously.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Except you are wrong,
    Think you'll find Trump has only changed his views to get votes with the religious conservative right

    He was pro-choice previously.

    I said "as far as I know" implying I am not fully versed on the situation


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    splinter65 wrote: »
    This referring to the president by his position in the sequence is quite new I think.
    It's been around for a few presidents at least, but given #45's vile character and repulsive carry-on, many people seem to prefer not to refer to him by name, but by number instead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    robindch wrote: »
    It's been around for a few presidents at least, but given #45's vile character and repulsive carry-on, many people seem to prefer not to refer to him by name, but by number instead.


    Any examples?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    Any examples?

    Your posts remind me of an interview I saw with 2 flat earthers. One of them had a very similar technique to you. He wouldn't say "the earth is flat because X" or "you're wrong because Y", he would just attempt to appear genuine while obfuscating the entire discussion by repeatedly asking for proof or further explanations of absolute basics.

    Why do you need examples of #45's repulsive behaviour? Have you really never seen any before? Or are you derailing the conversation,?

    I'll try to find the video and post a link


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Your posts remind me of an interview I saw with 2 flat earthers. One of them had a very similar technique to you. He wouldn't say "the earth is flat because X" or "you're wrong because Y", he would just attempt to appear genuine while obfuscating the entire discussion by repeatedly asking for proof or further explanations of absolute basics.

    Why do you need examples of #45's repulsive behaviour? Have you really never seen any before? Or are you derailing the conversation,?

    I'll try to find the video and post a link


    I neither like nor dislike Trump. I think he has done a good job. Most, if not all of the hate towards him is misplaced by gullible sheep who watch the mainstream media. I'm pretty sure any examples given of his "repulsive behavior" that you provide can be easily debunked. You are right, it is off topic but I was not the person who referred to the president as "#45" in the first instance. The Earth is spherical by the way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I neither like nor dislike Trump. I think he has done a good job. Most, if not all of the hate towards him is misplaced by gullible sheep who watch the mainstream media. I'm pretty sure any examples given of his "repulsive behavior" that you provide can be easily debunked. You are right, it is off topic but I was not the person who referred to the president as "#45" in the first instance. The Earth is spherical by the way.

    Technically the Earth is a geoid.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    I neither like nor dislike Trump. I think he has done a good job. Most, if not all of the hate towards him is misplaced by gullible sheep who watch the mainstream media. I'm pretty sure any examples given of his "repulsive behavior" that you provide can be easily debunked. You are right, it is off topic but I was not the person who referred to the president as "#45" in the first instance. The Earth is spherical by the way.

    Mainstream media? People don't need to watch mainstream media, trump personally provides all the evidence needed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    Any examples?

    It appears quite clear that there is an anti-abortion campaign raging in the US over the past number of months which has certainly been exacerbated by some of Trumps decisions.
    Perhaps he wasn't aware of the ramifications, though I doubt it but it may have significant consequences in the domain of abortion rights.
    The decision to appoint Kavanaugh was a major piece of the puzzle.

    As an example the latest in Alabama is at the state level, having any abortion at any point can carry a maximum sentence of up to 99 years.
    This follows on from similar rulings in Georgia where the "heartbeat bill" was signed into law outlawing abortions after the 6 week mark, a point where many women may be pregnant unbeknownst to them. Additionally they may even be prosecuted if they go to another state.

    This is complicated by two issues, clearly the states which have passed these laws are republican conservative states which is buttressed by a US supreme court currently adjudicated by a republican majority.

    A recent somewhat flippant decision to disregard stare decisis in an unrelated case opens up the possibility that the supreme court is willing to overturn cases, possibly even Wade vs Roe.
    Justice Stephen Breyer wrote that the decision “even though it is a well-reasoned decision that has caused no serious practical problems in the four decades since we decided it. Today’s decision can only cause one to wonder which cases the Court will overrule next.”

    Apparently main commentators feel it's a decision that was taken with Wade vs Roe in mind.
    Its somewhat ironic that in light of this decision that Kavanaugh went back on his previously held believe regarding stare decisis

    "Senator Susan Collins, after his contentious confirmation hearings last year. Collins, the Maine Republican who is usually described as a supporter of abortion rights, announced that she would vote for Kavanaugh because of his expressed belief in precedent, notably when it came to Roe. She said, “When I asked him, would it be sufficient to overturn a long-established precedent if five current justices believed that it was wrongly decided, he emphatically said ‘No.’ ” By joining the majority in Hyatt, the now safely confirmed Kavanaugh has shown that he really meant “Yes.”


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Technically the Earth is a geoid.

    Kind of but not really. The geoid is simply a model that describes mean sea level of the earth at any give location. It is an abstract surface based around gravitational forces, i.e the surface described by the positions where 1kg weighs 1kg. Conceptually, as a single solid geometric object it is easier to think of the planet as an oblate ellipsoid, with the geoid helping flat earthers to deal with GPS when generating heights and contours on a grid. Geodesists (that is those pesky round earthers) tend to get quite tetchy about this stuff.

    threeheights_e(1).jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    robindch wrote: »
    It's been around for a few presidents at least, but given #45's vile character and repulsive carry-on, many people seem to prefer not to refer to him by name, but by number instead.

    “many people” is just not going to swing it. If he’s still alive next Nov he’ll be easily re elected firstly because of the shockingly poor alternatives currently being proposed and secondly because lots of very ordinary Americans think he’s superb.


  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    splinter65 wrote: »
    “many people” is just not going to swing it. If he’s still alive next Nov he’ll be easily re elected firstly because of the shockingly poor alternatives currently being proposed and secondly because lots of very ordinary Americans think he’s superb.

    Alternatives maybe, ordinary Americans thinking he's superb no.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    splinter65 wrote: »
    ....
    and secondly because lots of very ordinary Americans think he’s superb.

    But not the majority.
    As such more people dislike him then like him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Hitch2222


    Cabaal wrote: »
    But not the majority.
    As such more people dislike him then like him.

    Who cares what proportion of the population dislike him if the current system is not designed to be impacted by the majority.

    Popularity becomes somewhat irrelevant and unless the electoral college is abolished the majority will become less relevant given States are becoming more and more partisan.
    Minnesota is the only state that currently has a divided legislature which is something that hasn't occurred since 1914.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I see the pro-life zealots are out welcoming Trump

    Literally "Loving Life" in one hand but hating people in the other, love life...unless its South American, then separate the child from its parents.

    ?width=630&version=4669883


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Cabaal wrote: »
    But not the majority.
    As such more people dislike him then like him.

    If the people who dislike him so much would just dislike him enough to get out and vote, and if there was a Democratic candidate they admired enough to get out and vote for then things would be different.
    As it is Trump is their democratically elected leader and, unless something very dramatic happens in the next 17 months, he will be returned again at the next time out.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    robindch wrote: »
    It's been around for a few presidents at least, but given #45's vile character and repulsive carry-on, many people seem to prefer not to refer to him by name, but by number instead.
    Any examples?
    Well, just about any one of his vile tweets will give you what you're looking for. If you're looking for one specific example though, then I suppose that time he boasted about "grabbing women by the pussy" would probably meet most people's definition of "vile character and repulsive carry-on". I do concede, though, that since you're asking for examples, that it could be the case that you've forgotten that #45 boasted about sexually assaulting women (suggesting that you have a poor memory), or perhaps that you believe that it's ok to sexual assault women (suggesting that you have a vile character similar to #45's), or you could be just trolling the forum - please feel free to clarify.

    Jonathan Pie mentions a few more examples here if you're running short:



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