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Fine Gael TD sues Dublin Hotel after falling off swing

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    #2402
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    dublin99 wrote: »
    Section 26 of the Civil Liability and Corts2004 Act requires a judge to dismiss a personal injury claim if a claimant knowingly gives, or causes to be given, false or misleading evidence unless the dismissal of the action would result in injustice.

    Please look up "Platt v OBH Luxury Accommodation". Platt fell in a hotel and was proven to have exaggerated his injuries.

    A bit like our 10k runner here??

    This is exactly the kind of exaggerated claims that the law was designed to deal with.

    Knowingly gives or causes to be given - that means that the false information is given on purpose. She will claim that it was a genuine error on her part, and therefore not knowingly given or caused to be given.

    Which version people believe is up to them. All I'm saying is that it's not cut and dried. If it went to court, even with those 'inaccuracies', she may have been able to explain them to the judge and quite possibly have won her case.


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    #2403
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    The only way going on the SOR show would have made sense is if she came out with her hands up. I made a serious error of judgment. As a public representative I have a duty to act in a mature and responsible manner and my taking a case against the hotel is below that standard. My injuries were as a result of my own irresponsibility etc. Instead she tried and failed miserably to defend the indefensible.


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    #2404
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,311 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    People seem happy enough to claim it a fact that she lied without any proof that she lied.

    Did she lie, I don't know for sure. I can suspect it. But I can't say with any certainty that she did tell lies.

    On the balance of probablities i have no problem saying she lied. And i say that with a large degree of certainty. You do not forgot running a race 3 weeks after an injury you say had you in pain for 3 months. And not only running a race but running it in a time that was typical for you. If she was standing in front of me i would have no problem calling her a barefaced liar.


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    #2405
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    dublin99 wrote: »
    Section 26 of the Civil Liability and Corts2004 Act requires a judge to dismiss a personal injury claim if a claimant knowingly gives, or causes to be given, false or misleading evidence unless the dismissal of the action would result in injustice.

    Please look up "Platt v OBH Luxury Accommodation". Platt fell in a hotel and was proven to have exaggerated his injuries.

    A bit like our 10k runner here??

    This is exactly the kind of exaggerated claims that the law was designed to deal with.

    FFS, from Westlaw:

    The section is in response to concerns raised by the insurance industry following the decision in Vesey v Bus Éireann. In this case the learned High Court judge found that the plaintiff's evidence was lacking in credibility and that he had lied to both his own doctors and those of the defendant. Nevertheless, the plaintiff was awarded £72,500 damages for his injuries. The defendant appealed to the Supreme Court contending, inter alia, that the judge erred in making any award of damages having regard to the plaintiff's dishonesty. The Supreme Court ([2001] 4 I.R.192) reduced the damages to £30,000 on the basis that the High Court award was excessive but indicated that a court was not entitled to reduce or extinguish the damages to which a plaintiff was entitled in order to mark the court's disapproval of any dishonesty which characterised the prosecution of the claim.


    Anyway, good to know that the law has now been updated. So Bailey didn't really have a choice in dropping the claim, a judge would have needed good reasons to allow it to continue.


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    #2406
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    On the balance of probablities i have no problem saying she lied. And i say that with a large degree of certainty. You do not forgot running a race 3 weeks after an injury you say had you in pain for 3 months. And not only running a race but running it in a time that was typical for you. If she was standing in front of me i would have no problem calling her a barefaced liar.

    And she might have no problem taking you to court for defamation. She'd find it easier to prove you defamed her than you would to prove that she told lies on purpose.

    I have my doubts but it is entirely possible that people who lead busy lives (as a TD would) could easily forget the date that they ran a race. I've done things a year ago that seemed like a few months ago and I've done things a few months ago that seemed like a year ago. Very easy to lose track of time. Especially if you are trying to think what you did a year or two ago. When you think back on things you did a few years ago, there's not much difference between three weeks and three months.

    But yeah, she has a credibility issue but proving she told lies on purpose is difficult to do.


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    #2407
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Anyway, good to know that the law has now been updated. So Bailey didn't really have a choice in dropping the claim, a judge would have needed good reasons to allow it to continue.

    You don't think her barrister wouldn't have been able to convince the judge the inaccuracies were as a result of timeline error?


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    #2408
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,804 ✭✭✭take everything


    A poster above talked about forgetting running a 10k race?

    Beyond ridiculous


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    #2409
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,759 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    take everything wrote: »
    A poster above talked about forgetting running a 10k race?

    Beyond ridiculous

    It may be ridiculous but is it impossible?

    Have a think about it. Can you remember everything you did two years ago. With 100% certainty. I can't.

    I do shooting competitions. Pretty much one a month. Do you think I can remember which one I did in February two years ago? Not a chance.

    If she is the type of person who does lots of 10k races, she may well get dates mixed up. It's not impossible.


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    #2410
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    On the balance of probablities i have no problem saying she lied. And i say that with a large degree of certainty. You do not forgot running a race 3 weeks after an injury you say had you in pain for 3 months. And not only running a race but running it in a time that was typical for you. If she was standing in front of me i would have no problem calling her a barefaced liar.

    She also referenced on SOR that not only wasn’t she happy with her time but she “felt” the effects of her injuries afterwards.

    So, she couldn’t remember running in the event but she could remember the pain she felt after running it!

    :D


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    #2411
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    On the accusations of fraud, Maria is unlikely to face any legal consequences here. The bar is quite high and fraudulent claims rarely result in prosecution. I posted yesterday about the fact that perjury is something we have in common law but not on our statutes and it has only ever been prosecuted once in a fraudulent personal injury claim.

    On being expelled from Fine Gael, as long as the party follows standard disciplinary procedures, I don't see how this becomes a legal issue that requires a "beyond reasonable doubt" level of rigour. It's a political party, a private organisation and not the State. The state can't send you to jail without you being found guilty beyond reasonable doubt but a private organisation can remove you for all sorts of reasons as long as disciplinary procedures are followed.


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    #2412
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sm I right in saying the race is run on the August bank holiday of every year and the date has never changed?


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    #2413
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Lads, let's clarify something now.

    Telling a lawyer that you couldn't run at all for 3 months when in fact you ran (on public record) 3 weeks later (with presumably training for prep beforehand) is not not a simple mistake to make.

    It's not like saying she wore yellow runners in the race, when they were actually lime green.


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    #2414
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,384 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    And she might have no problem taking you to court for defamation. She'd find it easier to prove you defamed her than you would to prove that she told lies on purpose.

    I have my doubts but it is entirely possible that people who lead busy lives (as a TD would) could easily forget the date that they ran a race. I've done things a year ago that seemed like a few months ago and I've done things a few months ago that seemed like a year ago. Very easy to lose track of time. Especially if you are trying to think what you did a year or two ago. When you think back on things you did a few years ago, there's not much difference between three weeks and three months.

    But yeah, she has a credibility issue but proving she told lies on purpose is difficult to do.

    There's a difference between forgetting the date you ran a race, and specifically claiming you couldn't run for three months and that her pain was as severe as it was. Like you, I don't doubt that maybe she was injured to an extent. However, she claimed it caused her huge physical pain as well as migraines. It was obviously a significant period of her life. As such, while it's possible she may have forgotten the date she ran it on, she would not have forgotten the fact she ran a 10k within the first month or two after the incident. The date, sure; but not the event itself especially if as she later claims she was in more pain after it.

    There's also the fact she ran the 10k and was only 40seconds slower than the previous year. Even if she didn't run at all for the three weeks between the incident and the 10k, those 40seconds could reasonably be attributed to lack of training leading up to the race rather than loss of performance due to injury.

    It's not just forgetting the date, she specifically said in her claim that she was unable to run for three months. If the incident had caused her that much pain she would absolutely have remembered doing a 10k within that period of time, but she specifically omitted it and her time showed no loss of performance as a result of injury.


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    #2415
    Scarlet42
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭Scarlet42


    in fairness to her ... she hasn't had it easy ..

    "Like many in my age group, my husband and I struggled to get the funds together to pay for our home."

    https://businessandfinance.com/blog/guest-blog-key-housing-ireland/


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    #2416
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    If she is the type of person who does lots of 10k races, she may well get dates mixed up. It's not impossible.

    Yeah yeah we get it, nothing is impossible. You're just muddying the waters now for some strange reason.

    It was the only run she did in a 3 month period after the accident. It was her dip-the-toe run which she said she failed. She remembered her time alright.

    SOR: ... and it turns out you were running within three weeks and running a pretty good time.
    MB: ... not for me

    I run a lot and I get injured from time to time (in sport). I would remember my first comeback event because I would be nervous as hell about it and prepare like crazy (e.g. intensive physio like Maria got).

    She chose to forget. We all know it.


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    #2417
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It may be ridiculous but is it impossible?

    Have a think about it. Can you remember everything you did two years ago. With 100% certainty. I can't.

    I do shooting competitions. Pretty much one a month. Do you think I can remember which one I did in February two years ago? Not a chance.

    If she is the type of person who does lots of 10k races, she may well get dates mixed up. It's not impossible.

    I bet if you had to sign a legal document stating which shooting competition you were in, you’d make it your business to remember correctly.


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    #2418
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Danzy wrote: »
    They surely have rules on bringing the party in to disrepute.

    But also unfair to punish her is she was only a weak point for nefarious forces whose real target was FG damage in the weak before local and Euro elections. Looking at the results, it would seem people have not been taken in by this mudslinging distraction, and the attempt has failed.


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    #2419
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Imagine the uproar from within FG circles if the likes of Erica Fleming claimed that she had to sleep in a hotel room for 3 months, if it later transpired that it was for "only" 3 weeks.

    Sure hotel life, you know yourself, 3 weeks/months, easy mistake to make. :D


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    #2420
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    I for one cannot wait for the next General Election. I am thinking there could be many swing votes :D


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    #2421
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    But also unfair to punish her is she was only a weak point for nefarious forces whose real target was FG damage in the weak before local and Euro elections. Looking at the results, it would seem people have not been taken in by this mudslinging distraction, and the attempt has failed.

    As is your persistent trolling. :cool:


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    #2422
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    You don't think her barrister wouldn't have been able to convince the judge the inaccuracies were as a result of timeline error?
    No, unless you're saying that Maria Bailey's 10k run could have happened before the accident?

    Maria Bailey wouldn't lie, I am sure (hnnnnnghh)


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    #2423
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    jack presley wrote: »
    I bet if you had to sign a legal document stating which shooting competition you were in, you’d make it your business to remember correctly.

    You wouldn't. Memories for details fade very quickly. Subsequent events, years later, that make the event important in retrospect, don't bring back the memories of something that was minor at the time. Of course she would remember, if she had known the event would lead to such a s#itstorm and media hounding, but of coarse she never guessed it would reach become a national topic of debate and analysis.


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    #2424
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,311 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    You wouldn't. Memories for details fade very quickly. Subsequent events, years later, that make the event important in retrospect, don't bring back the memories of something that was minor at the time. Of course she would remember, if she had known the event would lead to such a s#itstorm and media hounding, but of coarse she never guessed it would reach become a national topic of debate and analysis.

    she said she was in pain for 3 months. that doesn't sound very minor to me.


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    #2425
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    Someone should ask Madigan straight out was she there. If she says No I’d believe her as she knows there is cctv of that night.

    If she dodges the question, there’s your answer.

    I think she has already dodged the question inasmuch as she refused to answer journalists who doorstepped her at Dublin Castle yesterday. Would have been easy to call a quick “I was not present” to that one question. If she had given her legal assistance after the incident, without having been present, she’d more or less be off the hook as she would merely have taken instruction and proceeded with the evidence offered. However, being a solicitor as well as a politician she may have taken her own counsel and kept her mouth shut for the time being as there may be implications that have not yet been considered.


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    #2426
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It may be ridiculous but is it impossible?

    Have a think about it. Can you remember everything you did two years ago. With 100% certainty. I can't.

    I do shooting competitions. Pretty much one a month. Do you think I can remember which one I did in February two years ago? Not a chance.

    If she is the type of person who does lots of 10k races, she may well get dates mixed up. It's not impossible.

    She told lies. It's possible she's a complete idiot, but in this instance I'd go with telling lies. If you were in a fall and went shooting 3 weeks after it and genuinely signed an affidavit saying you couldn't shoot for 3 months after the fall, even though you posted it on your social media at the time, well you'd be some tit TBF.
    FYI: she didn't sign her claim two years after it.


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    #2427
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,586 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Scarlet42 wrote: »
    in fairness to her ... she hasn't had it easy ..

    "Like many in my age group, my husband and I struggled to get the funds together to pay for our home."

    https://businessandfinance.com/blog/guest-blog-key-housing-ireland/

    She really is throwing everything at this, Strong woman, Family person, juggles family and work life and now struggled to get the funds for their home.

    No mention of a payout in another claim that would help in someway towards getting the funds together for a home.

    The woman is a charlatan.


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    #2428
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    You wouldn't. Memories for details fade very quickly. Subsequent events, years later, that make the event important in retrospect, don't bring back the memories of something that was minor at the time. Of course she would remember, if she had known the event would lead to such a s#itstorm and media hounding, but of coarse she never guessed it would reach become a national topic of debate and analysis.

    She posted her run on social media ffs, that's public record. Also she would have submitted the details at the time she started the claim not two years later.
    In any case, this only adds to her stupidity, the condition under which it happened is the main problem and the fact she was willing to claim while her own party was speaking out about claim culture is the topper so please...


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    #2429
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Matt, when did she sign her claim/affidavit?


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    #2430
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It may be ridiculous but is it impossible?

    Have a think about it. Can you remember everything you did two years ago. With 100% certainty. I can't.

    I do shooting competitions. Pretty much one a month. Do you think I can remember which one I did in February two years ago? Not a chance.

    If she is the type of person who does lots of 10k races, she may well get dates mixed up. It's not impossible.
    thumb_methinks-thou-doth-protest-too-much-memecrunch-com-watching-kavanaugh-and-36586127.png


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    #2431
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I have my doubts but it is entirely possible that people who lead busy lives (as a TD would) could easily forget the date that they ran a race. I've done things a year ago that seemed like a few months ago and I've done things a few months ago that seemed like a year ago. Very easy to lose track of time. Especially if you are trying to think what you did a year or two ago. When you think back on things you did a few years ago, there's not much difference between three weeks and three months.

    Trawling back through race results the only 10k she has recorded an official time for is The Bay 10k. Given that this is in her local constituency and is ran the same weekend since its inception makes it highly unlikely it would slip your mind when its on (the T shirt from that race also has the dates on them)


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