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Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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    #9482
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,403 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    martingriff wrote: »
    Not his fault the population was duped by Farage and Boris and Rees Moog
    Cameron and the other politicians did little to actually challenge their rubbish, the media in the UK in general was also useless and let these 3 spout a load of nonsense unchallenged while giving them guest spots on show like "have I got news for you" all the while raising their profile even further.


    Having said that, if people believed the words of those 3 clowns it is hard to feel too much sympathy for them.


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    #9483
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Boris was the favourite in the last Tory leadership campaign too, and TM basically came from nowhere to win by default when everyone else had to resign due to infighting and losing support

    The next Tory leader could be someone nobody expects today

    Been saying this for ages - I am convinced Boris won't have the support. I still believe there's too many Tory's who don't want the no-deal Brexit he'd be likely to bring about!


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    #9484
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,793 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    He put party before country and promised the referendum to appease the loopers in his party and stop them losing votes to UKip. He gambled and won with the Scottish Independence referendum and thought he could do it a second time with Brexit. He also said he'd stick around to implement Brexit if that was the will of the people and instead quit immediately after the result. He gets no respect from me.

    To me it would be hypocritical to stay after campaigning for stay (but so did May I suppose). They should have won but the showboating if Farage and Boris won the day and he should have respected that. As an overall leader I did not like him


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    #9485
    PropJoe10
    Registered Users Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭PropJoe10


    martingriff wrote: »
    In fairness to Cameron he said as an election promise he would have the referendum and was against leaving. He lived up to the promise and I respect him for leaving and let someone else to bring it forward as he did not want to leave.

    Cameron was a coward to call that referendum without having any sort of idea what would happen if the vote actually passed. Politicians are elected to make the right decisions for their constituents and what happened there was a dereliction of duty. They're going to be paying for it for years to come.


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    #9486
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,125 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So another couple of wasted weeks/a month while they fight over a new leader.


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    #9487
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,793 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Mod: Posts like this are not welcome here. No more please.
    Apologies


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    #9488
    Roanmore
    Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Roanmore


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The mealy mouthed faint praise we will be treated to over the next days ‘assessing’ her legacy can be ignored. As time ticks on history will not be kind to her or David Cameron. Easily the two most incompetent leaders in British political history - Cameron created and May perpetuated a full blown constitutional crisis. Good riddance.

    Add in Ed Miliband, Tim Farron and now Corbyn who has shown no Leadership on Brexit and you have an awful bunch of politicians.


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    #9489
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Roanmore wrote: »
    Add in Ed Miliband, Tim Farron and now Corbyn who has shown no Leadership on Brexit and you have an awful bunch of politicians.

    If only Ed's brother won the Labour leadership.....


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    #9490
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    devnull wrote: »
    If only Ed's brother won the Labour leadership.....

    If only John Smith hadn't taken a banger of a heart attack up the side of a mountain etc. etc.


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    #9491
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Regardless of whoever is the next leader it doesn't change one thing: They only have till October to get their house in order or have a 2nd referendum on the issue. If whoever takes over is an utter headbanger who talks out their hole and has no plan or makes demands to the EU they could be the one taking the poisoned chalice of a no-deal and be sunk by it. May might be leaving but if there's one thing she can take solace in it's that she didn't allow the UK to crash out on her watch though her planning and method's ultimately sunk her regardless.


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    #9492
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,089 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Strumms wrote: »
    The ink is barley cold on her resignation speech and Rees Mogg is putting the boot in... true to form and true to his lack of class. How voters could look at him and think electable is beyond me.
    PropJoe10 wrote: »
    Cameron was a coward to call that referendum without having any sort of idea what would happen if the vote actually passed. Politicians are elected to make the right decisions for their constituents and what happened there was a dereliction of duty. They're going to be paying for it for years to come.

    He was pandering to his own right of right to shore up support for himself and his mates. It backfired in a major way. The COUNTRY will pay the price. When the likes of Rees Mogg and Boris and co have their noses millimeters from the trough that’s proof. With ineffectual Corbyn sitting across the house too it’s really bad times for the UK AND possibly beyond. There is a real big leadership vacuum across politics in the UK in general.

    With all the Tory infighting you’d have hoped regardless of who you vote for there might be an alternative but as decent and principled as Corbyn might be its immediately clear that the man isn’t electable as PM...


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    #9493
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Infini wrote: »
    Regardless of whoever is the next leader it doesn't change one thing: They only have till October to get their house in order or have a 2nd referendum on the issue.


    I don't think they'll have time for a referendum after the time taken to appoint a new leader and then have him get told "Non" to all negotiations in Brussels- it'll be No Deal or another extension in October.


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    #9494
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,949 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ongarite wrote: »
    Her speech was pathetic.
    Her list of achievements was literally grasping at straws & including Grenfell in that list will really piss of Londoners.

    Couldn't believe the indignity of it.

    As a Cab Sec she was pretty cool and capable, the natural successor, but how dreadful it has all gone. Utter laughing stock carnage.


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    #9495
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,261 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The Lancaster House speech was her undoing. It left her no room for reaching out across the floor of the HOC and emboldened those of the ERG. Very poor political judgement, could only see things trough the eyes of the Tory party.


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    #9496
    20silkcut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I don't think they'll have time for a referendum after the time taken to appoint a new leader and then have him get told "Non" to all negotiations in Brussels- it'll be No Deal or another extension in October.

    In fairness after Lancaster house May was as hard a brexiteer as any British PM could be. Slowly but surely that changed.
    Surely any PM with an ounce of pragmatism/sanity ( essential in the DNA of any serious politician?? ) is going to follow that exact same trajectory.
    Unless the EU pull the plug before that realization dawns.

    Is this just hitting the snooze button on the alarm.


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    #9497
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,911 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I don't think they'll have time for a referendum after the time taken to appoint a new leader and then have him get told "Non" to all negotiations in Brussels- it'll be No Deal or another extension in October.


    Didnt Macron put his foot down about no more extentions?


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    #9498
    PropJoe10
    Registered Users Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭PropJoe10


    Strumms wrote: »
    He was pandering to his own right of right to shore up support for himself and his mates. It backfired in a major way. The COUNTRY will pay the price. When the likes of Rees Mogg and Boris and co have their noses millimeters from the trough that’s proof. With ineffectual Corbyn sitting across the house too it’s really bad times for the UK AND possibly beyond. There is a real big leadership vacuum across politics in the UK in general.

    With all the Tory infighting you’d have hoped regardless of who you vote for there might be an alternative but as decent and principled as Corbyn might be its immediately clear that the man isn’t electable as PM...

    I disagree there, I think Corbyn is half the problem. He stands for absolutely nothing. He doesn't seem to be either for or against Brexit, he doesn't seem to be either for or against a second referendum and he doesn't seem to have any sort of idea of how he'd handle Brexit if he was PM. What they really need at the moment over there is a strong and viable opposition with clear policies and solutions to Brexit. Corbyn is hopeless.


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    #9499
    strawdog
    Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭strawdog


    Infini wrote: »
    Regardless of whoever is the next leader it doesn't change one thing: They only have till October to get their house in order or have a 2nd referendum on the issue. If whoever takes over is an utter headbanger who talks out their hole and has no plan or makes demands to the EU they could be the one taking the poisoned chalice of a no-deal and be sunk by it. May might be leaving but if there's one thing she can take solace in it's that she didn't allow the UK to crash out on her watch though her planning and method's ultimately sunk her regardless.

    Haven't been following thread too closely due to work so not sure if this was posted before but this is the best summary of the next leaders situation that I've seen in a while

    https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/05/23/this-prime-minister-was-destroyed-by-brexit-and-the-next-one


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    #9500
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,089 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Couldn't believe the indignity of it.

    As a Cab Sec she was pretty cool and capable, the natural successor, but how dreadful it has all gone. Utter laughing stock carnage.


    Indicative of what can happen to any leader when you don’t have much of a support base AND snipers in the long grass.

    The voting public in the UK deserve MUCH better than the options that are currently presented to them.


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    #9501
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,261 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Corbyn is a red herring, it's the Tories have been in Govn't. she could easily have bypassed Corbyn and reached out to some Lb MPs, not in her DNA.

    Comment on above;half the UK public deserve better.


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    #9502
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Strumms wrote: »
    Indicative of what can happen to any leader when you don’t have much of a support base AND snipers in the long grass.

    The voting public in the UK deserve MUCH better than the options that are currently presented to them.

    I am really starting to question this assumption.

    They never took any notice of the EU, had pathetic turnouts for EU elections and have allowed a significant portion of the available seats in the HoC to be little more that fiefdoms. A significant portion of them seem to celebrate their lack of engagement.

    The turnout for these elections will be telling. Unless a significantly higher level of turnout about the normal EU turnout bothers to vote against the likes of the BRexit Party then I am afraid that the only conclusion is that they are either too lazy or not bothered.


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    #9503
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,089 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    PropJoe10 wrote: »
    I disagree there, I think Corbyn is half the problem. He stands for absolutely nothing. He doesn't seem to be either for or against Brexit, he doesn't seem to be either for or against a second referendum and he doesn't seem to have any sort of idea of how he'd handle Brexit if he was PM. What they really need at the moment over there is a strong and viable opposition with clear policies and solutions to Brexit. Corbyn is hopeless.

    I think we are actually agreeing. Corbyn is a dead weight around the neck of the Labour Party. The Torries are in disarray but the Labour Party and it’s leadership are about as weak as a chocolate teapot. Under past leaderships with ALL that’s happening in the Tory government there would have been a surge to the left but Corbyn can barely manage decimal change in the polls.


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    #9504
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    He put party before country and promised the referendum to appease the loopers in his party and stop them losing votes to UKip. He gambled and won with the Scottish Independence referendum and thought he could do it a second time with Brexit. He also said he'd stick around to implement Brexit if that was the will of the people and instead quit immediately after the result. He gets no respect from me.

    In fairness, saying he would stick around was all he could say, otherwise the Leave campaign were gaining votes from people who just wanted rid of him!

    I'd have had less respect for him staying on to implement a Brexit that he had spent a year arguing wasn't going to be workable!


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    #9505
    Francie Barrett
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    Infini wrote: »
    Regardless of whoever is the next leader it doesn't change one thing: They only have till October to get their house in order or have a 2nd referendum on the issue. If whoever takes over is an utter headbanger who talks out their hole and has no plan or makes demands to the EU they could be the one taking the poisoned chalice of a no-deal and be sunk by it. May might be leaving but if there's one thing she can take solace in it's that she didn't allow the UK to crash out on her watch though her planning and method's ultimately sunk her regardless.
    Any chance of a second referendum is gone now. There was no support for it before May went, and with a pro-Brexit PM likely to be installed, there certainly won't be now.

    The next stages will be very interesting. No one is going to try and revive May's Withdrawal Agreement. I suspect what happens is that deal is scraped, and Boris (or whoever is PM) will try to renegotiate the current deal to something far more looser with the backstop axed. The big question is will the EU maintain their commitment on this issue? I don't think they will want to, but politically, I suspect they will have painted themselves into a corner and will go with it. If they throw an enthusiastic member nation under the bus to appease a leaving country, that would be the end of the EU.

    Finally, the next PM will face the same fundamental issue that May faced when trying to get her deal through. How will they get enough MP's to support the deal to get it through parliament? The majority of the government is razor thin, and I can't see every single Conservative voting for whatever deal Boris comes up with.


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    #9506
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Francie Barrett wrote: »
    Finally, the next PM will face the same fundamental issue that May faced when trying to get her deal through. How will they get enough MP's to support the deal to get it through parliament? The majority of the government is razor thin, and I can't see every single Conservative voting for whatever deal Boris comes up with.

    It will not take many Tories to vote against Boris becoming PM to cause a GE.


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    #9507
    boggerman1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭boggerman1


    More unicorn thinking on lbc.lets go WTO.when asked for a country trading on WTO terms as usual there is the sound of silence


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    #9508
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,564 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    There is no alternative to the backstop. It was invented by the UK to try to avoid the worst of Brexit effects on NI and the fact it would, at least superficially, mean breaking the GFA.

    The backstop was actually quite a compromise by the EU, essentially allowed the breaking of one of the 4 pillars on the basis that peace was more important and that NI was such a small part of the EU, and Ireland not much bigger.

    TM never wanted the backstop, but knew that it really was unavoidable if they wanted to have any future trading relationship with the EU that wouldn't massively disadvantage the UK.

    Johnson knows this too, he was originally in the cabinet when it was first being discussed. Raab knows it, they all know it. Talk of alternative arrangements are all well and good, but "unless and until" still stands.


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    #9509
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    There'll be no renegotiation. The EU has been clear about that. I'm sure half the leadership contenders will claim they can renegotiate, but they won't.

    it's this deal, no deal or no Brexit, unless the red lines move. That's the reality, no matter who the prime minister is.


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    #9510
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Not an ounce of sympathy for May. She's been utterly incapable of doing the job, she can now Maybot off the stage.
    Yes, she had a difficult ask, but she made mistake after mistake; spoofing her way all along.
    Britain will get their Brexit (in my view it's going to be a hard Brexit), and Britain is likely to get Boris. With the cowardly Corbyn in the opposite corner, internal politics will severely hurt the people (half of which I have sympathy for).


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    #9511
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,897 ✭✭✭trellheim


    OK here's my current angle : what happens to the confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP


This discussion has been closed.
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