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Hansons Method

  • 20-05-2019 12:34pm
    #1
    shotgunmcos
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭ shotgunmcos


    Its been a topic in logs, on the sub 3 support thread and I've had some PMs about the plan, the method, the book etc..

    I know there will be people using the Hansons method again or for the first time for DCM and/or a HM en route to DCM. I thought it might be useful to have a thread dedicated to the Hansons Method. I read the book several times and used the plan for success, as did many others here, not least one of our Novice Mentors, Huzzah! Regardless of what plan you are using we would all be more or less doing similar sessions on a similar schedule. I'll happily support with newbie questions and I invite other Hansons advocates to pitch in too :)

    I had more questions than answers about the method even after reading the book and constantly referred back to it and logs here. Its a tough plan based on cumulative fatigue and 3 sessions of substance and 6 runs per week (both Beginner and Advanced plans)

    I have linked to resources below for logs that have used the method with success. It can be time consuming to go through big logs so I have linked to the start of the plan in each case.

    DCM plans probably don't kick off until mid June for an 18 week approach or mid August if you are slaloming in from an 800m plan Murph_D style. However the method is tough and you need to be ready for it. Ideally you will get a base fitness together as the "Sessions of substance" begin in earnest week 2.

    These were links I bookmarked to refer back to real life experiences of the sessions I had in front of me during the plan.

    Huzzah! Half Marathon Beginner plan to Wexford HM in a PB!
    Huzzah! Marathon Beginner Plan for Berlin - Debut marathon with a negative split!!
    Murph D Advanced Half Marathon Plan to Charleville HM in a PB!
    Diablo Verde Advanced Marathon Plan for Valencia, sub3 and negative split!
    Ferris B meticulous execution of the Advanced Marathon Plan - By the Book!
    shotgunmcos Advanced Plan for Limerick, sub3 and negative split!


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Comments

  • #2
    chickey2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭ chickey2


    Thanks for that really helpful post. Murph_D has a great spreadsheet with all the runs converted to km which is great for us metric people. I can only find a read only version but maybe Murph can post a link?
    I won't be joining you at DCM but am seriously considering the half plan for the race series half in September. I have the book which I've read twice and I have Murph_D's spreadsheet but I've always bottled out due to the six days a week. Will have another look at the book!


  • #3
    shotgunmcos
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭ shotgunmcos


    chickey2 wrote: »
    Thanks for that really helpful post. Murph_D has a great spreadsheet with all the runs converted to km which is great for us metric people. I can only find a read only version but maybe Murph can post a link?
    I won't be joining you at DCM but am seriously considering the half plan for the race series half in September. I have the book which I've read twice and I have Murph_D's spreadsheet but I've always bottled out due to the six days a week. Will have another look at the book!


    Here is a version I made in miles and kms


  • #4
    Kissy Lips
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭ Kissy Lips


    Thanks for this.

    I loosely followed the Hansons Advanced Half Marathon plan. I took 10 minutes off my Waterford (Dec) HM time in the Bohermeen HM (March) as a result.

    I say I loosely followed it as I did not give have enough in the tank to complete the Thursday sessions. I would run shorter on Thursdays and on Sundays. Mostly because my first day on the plan was 6 weeks into the plan.

    IMO it is not a plan for the winter. Trying to do a pacey Tempo on the Thursday in driving wind and rain was miserable.

    Im at a cross roads now for DCM. I can choose Hanson's plan, the club plan (vibrant DCM crew) or P&D 55. I don't know what's best.

    Currently averging 45 miles per week. Did 51 miles last week.


    Two questions:

    1. Is it still effective to do the Advanced Hanson Marathon plan but swap the Tuesday for the club speed session? Granted the Tuesdays will start catering for the DCM but will suit the coaches taste.


    2. I need to lose some timber. Do you think this is a good plan for weight loss? Previously I did the club marathon plan and I lost approx 10 kg.


  • #5
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭ Itziger


    chickey2 wrote: »
    Thanks for that really helpful post. Murph_D has a great spreadsheet with all the runs converted to km which is great for us metric people. I can only find a read only version but maybe Murph can post a link?
    I won't be joining you at DCM but am seriously considering the half plan for the race series half in September. I have the book which I've read twice and I have Murph_D's spreadsheet but I've always bottled out due to the six days a week. Will have another look at the book!

    You could always go for a short light jog on the 'rest' day if that's what's bothering you.


  • #6
    chickey2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭ chickey2


    Itziger wrote: »
    You could always go for a short light jog on the 'rest' day if that's what's bothering you.

    Lol!
    I'm trying to convince myself that it's easier to run 6 days rather than my current 3/4 runs a week as it becomes more of a habit.


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  • #7
    Djoucer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭ Djoucer


    Any chance of a brief dummies guide? There’s a lot of buzz around Hanson of late.

    How and why does it work?

    What’s the main advantages of this over say a plan like Jack Daniels?


  • #8
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭ Murph_D


    Djoucer wrote: »
    Any chance of a brief dummies guide? There’s a lot of buzz around Hanson of late.

    How and why does it work?

    What’s the main advantages of this over say a plan like Jack Daniels?

    Main advantage over Daniels I would say is simplicity and relentless focus on race pace. I don’t think any other approach includes as much mileage at actual Marathon pace (or HM, if that’s your version), most of it while quite tired from the earlier workouts. Cumulative fatigue is a feature, but you could argue that of most plans. I don’t think it’s more or less difficult than P&D (the only marathon/HM method I can compare with, from experience), but it does seem more specific, and more integrated in terms of the sessions building relating to and building on each other.


  • #9
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭ Murph_D


    chickey2 wrote: »
    Thanks for that really helpful post. Murph_D has a great spreadsheet with all the runs converted to km which is great for us metric people. I can only find a read only version but maybe Murph can post a link?
    I won't be joining you at DCM but am seriously considering the half plan for the race series half in September. I have the book which I've read twice and I have Murph_D's spreadsheet but I've always bottled out due to the six days a week. Will have another look at the book!

    I’ll throw up a link to the HM spreadsheet later (have never done the full marathon plan!)


  • #10
    shotgunmcos
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭ shotgunmcos


    Kissy Lips wrote: »

    Two questions:

    1. Is it still effective to do the Advanced Hanson Marathon plan but swap the Tuesday for the club speed session? Granted the Tuesdays will start catering for the DCM but will suit the coaches taste.


    2. I need to lose some timber. Do you think this is a good plan for weight loss? Previously I did the club marathon plan and I lost approx 10 kg.

    1. Yes. Of all the sessions I think this is the one you could easily swap. BUT only for weeks 3-10. After that Tuesdays turn into "strength" intervals which I enjoyed and consider to be bonus MP work.

    The speed sessions (look in the attachment reply earlier) start with 400s and go up to 1600s. Key thing is to jog the recoveries. If you can't run you have done the rep too fast. This keeps the session speed focused but still mostly aerobic. If your club does standing or walking rests then consider jogging them instead.

    2. Yes again. I lost about 5kg over the 18 weeks. Just relentless training. BUT I made small but significant changes to diet. Hard to say I wouldn't have lost the weight with another plan too. I had it to lose


  • #11
    Kissy Lips
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭ Kissy Lips


    shotgunmcos wrote: »
    1. Yes. Of all the sessions I think this is the one you could easily swap. BUT only for weeks 3-10. After that Tuesdays turn into "strength" intervals which I enjoyed and consider to be bonus MP work.

    The speed sessions (look in the attachment reply earlier) start with 400s and go up to 1600s. Key thing is to jog the recoveries. If you can't run you have done the rep too fast. This keeps the session speed focused but still mostly aerobic. If your club does standing or walking rests then consider jogging them instead.

    2. Yes again. I lost about 5kg over the 18 weeks. Just relentless training. BUT I made small but significant changes to diet. Hard to say I wouldn't have lost the weight with another plan too. I had it to lose


    Great thanks.

    What is your opinion on racing during the plan?

    1. Is racing the Charleville HM at T-6 a crazy idea?

    2. If you were to race a 10km, when would you do it?


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  • #12
    healy1835
    Registered Users Posts: 2,074 ✭✭✭ healy1835


    https://youtu.be/Jhc6CRgwkqg


  • #13
    shotgunmcos
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭ shotgunmcos


    Kissy Lips wrote: »
    Great thanks.

    What is your opinion on racing during the plan?

    1. Is racing the Charleville HM at T-6 a crazy idea?

    2. If you were to race a 10km, when would you do it?

    1. I have it my DCM plan. Hansons Advanced plan upgraded. I don't think it's a crazy idea. I wouldn't replace one of the precious 16m LRs with it. Just ensure you run very very easy that Monday. Limerick was my first marathon in years.

    2. I haven't ruled out a 5 or 10k but I'll have a cut off point. Probably up to week 9 during the speed intervals phase or once the race specific phase starts and the earlier the better. Once the strength and 16m start I'd just focus on those sessions. The strength reps would be close to you HM pace so good for Charleville. The cumulative fatigue starts to build from week 9.


  • #14
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭ Murph_D


    HM schedule here. (Editable so you can cut and paste into your own doc.)

    You have to read the book though - this is useless by itself, but a handy reference once you're up and running and need to check what's on the menu for the day.


  • #15
    shotgunmcos
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭ shotgunmcos


    Thanks Murph_D!

    Does the HM book do planned training paces like the marathon? Is it done by 5 min gaps? If so would you mind sharing the paces for 1:25 and 1:20? Have you read both HM and Marathon books?

    I suppose why I am asking? Charleville HM during the DCM block. Plan A is to just train of marathon pace (MP) and run the HM off whatever fitness is in the tank. Plan B would be to do the exact same plan but replaced MP with HMP until it's done then dial back to MP for the approach to the DCM.

    Another way to skin it, Plan C perhaps, would be to maintain MP but reduce the strength reps to HMP (which would be fairly close to HMP anyway). But that would be very light practice on HMP.

    Likewise for the marathon. While I would strongly advise getting and digesting the book, I'll happily provide the book training paces for any given marathon target if asked.


  • #16
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭ Murph_D


    shotgunmcos wrote: »
    Thanks Murph_D!

    Does the HM book do planned training paces like the marathon? Is it done by 5 min gaps? If so would you mind sharing the paces for 1:25 and 1:20? Have you read both HM and Marathon books?

    I suppose why I am asking? Charleville HM during the DCM block. Plan A is to just train of marathon pace (MP) and run the HM off whatever fitness is in the tank. Plan B would be to do the exact same plan but replaced MP with HMP until it's done then dial back to MP for the approach to the DCM.

    Another way to skin it, Plan C perhaps, would be to maintain MP but reduce the strength reps to HMP (which would be fairly close to HMP anyway). But that would be very light practice on HMP.

    Likewise for the marathon. While I would strongly advise getting and digesting the book, I'll happily provide the book training paces for any given marathon target if asked.

    I have both books - the HM version seems very much based on the M version. Speed and strength paces are the same, ie based on recent 5k or other race pace. HM target is arrived at via a similar Race Equivalency Chart that the M version used - ie again based on recent performance from 5k to 10 miles. (There's no M times included in this chart, so you'd probably choose your HM target based on your M time using a chart from somewhere else - but 1:25ish sounds right). A main difference is the volume of the HM tempo runs - they only go up to 7 miles, so that would affect your Plan B.

    How about Plan D (which is what I did, as the HM rather than the M was the goal race)? Use the HM plan in full for Charleville, then switch to the last 6-7 weeks of M version for Dublin. Not for everyone, but this approach resulted in decent PBs at each distance for me, with (an admittedly soft) M time coming down 6 mins+ to 3:22.

    Here's another version of my spreadsheet with strength/speed paces in the other tabs.


  • #17
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭ Itziger


    chickey2 wrote: »
    Lol!
    I'm trying to convince myself that it's easier to run 6 days rather than my current 3/4 runs a week as it becomes more of a habit.

    You know, I think it is easier in a way. You don't have to think about what days you're running or not. Just run every day.

    It took me a LONG time to come to that conclusion and I'm not an evangelical 7-day-a-week person all of a sudden. I know there'll be times during the year where I'll miss days. There are real life things, especially travel I find, that mean running 365 days a year would be a pain in the ass.

    I also think taking a couple of days off after a few hard months of training for a target race makes sense. You're brain is screaming at you to take a bit of down time. Why not?


  • #18
    tunguska
    Registered Users Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭ tunguska


    Personally Im a big fan of the Hansons approach. I really agreed with the not so long run philosophy and the moderate mileage. Over the course of a marathon plan it doesnt wipe you out the way other plans would.


  • #19
    FBOT01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭ FBOT01


    Murph_D wrote: »
    I have both books - the HM version seems very much based on the M version. Speed and strength paces are the same, ie based on recent 5k or other race pace. HM target is arrived at via a similar Race Equivalency Chart that the M version used - ie again based on recent performance from 5k to 10 miles. (There's no M times included in this chart, so you'd probably choose your HM target based on your M time using a chart from somewhere else - but 1:25ish sounds right). A main difference is the volume of the HM tempo runs - they only go up to 7 miles, so that would affect your Plan B.

    How about Plan D (which is what I did, as the HM rather than the M was the goal race)? Use the HM plan in full for Charleville, then switch to the last 6-7 weeks of M version for Dublin. Not for everyone, but this approach resulted in decent PBs at each distance for me, with (an admittedly soft) M time coming down 6 mins+ to 3:22.

    Here's another version of my spreadsheet with strength/speed paces in the other tabs.

    I am seriously looking at the Plan "D" option with Charleville being the target before pacing DCM.

    Having done the Hanson Marathon plan last year for New York I am a convert. I don't mind running 6 days and the not having to run more the 16m/2hrs at a go suits my aging body.

    I have also been looking closely at 80/20 stuff lately and will be reviewing Hanson Plan in the context of that to ensure I am getting the best of both if possible.


  • #20
    shotgunmcos
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭ shotgunmcos


    Likewise here: Closer to the D plan but not the actual HM plan.

    Using the same schedule but a hybrid of the Advanced and 60-80mpw plans with a pinch of HM stuff.

    Basically:
    Mondays: Easy but finishing with some strides
    Tuesday: Same. But 1 less speed session (The 1,600s) and 1 more strength session. Getting all the speed done over 8 weeks before starting strength
    Wednesday: Short recovery run or off
    Thursday: Keeping MP Tempo but will slot in some HM progression runs every few weeks until strength reps take over on the Tuesdays. Still toying with the idea of the Plan D and doing these earlier tempos at HM pace. I'll go on how the body is adjusting to the plan in general. It would take some discipline to come back down to MP after HMP tempos or may feel brilliant...
    Friday: Easy
    Saturday: Easy
    Sunday: More regular LRs some of which will have MP or HMP segments en route to Charelville - Keeping to 25% of the weekly volume. If I missed half the week I'll think twice about the planned LR. I managed to do a good but careful workaround during the advanced plan already which was a good learning.


    Quick question for those who have done a HM in the mid to late part of the plan: Did you drop the Strength and/or Tempo sessions that week?


  • #21
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭ Murph_D


    Well in general marathon training is there’s a HM in the lead up I would generally drop the Thurs session, and the following Tues session too to allow for proper recovery. The specificity of the HM race more than makes up for the dropped sessions.


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  • #22
    HurlyBurly
    Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭ HurlyBurly


    When people hear Hansons they tend to think its somehow easier with the supposed lack of major long runs but in reality I found it quite involved with little wiggle room for moving things around during the week. The Saturday and Monday Easy runs are almost as important as any other day because of the emphasis on cumulative fatigue.
    Really the "short" long run is not a big deal either because it's related to the overall mileage. I think the book plan is geared towards 100km max a week, and plenty of guides (even Daniels) talk about keeping long run to 25% of weekly mileage so 20-25km is normal then. Daniels 2q for less than 100k doesn't have any 20 milers either from what I remember.
    I saw a 75miles per week version of Hansons , geared towards Boston I think, and it was very demanding, with plenty of 18-20 milers and hills.
    I really like long weekend runs myself and didn't have time for 2 involved sessions midweek so it didn't suit me but clearly it works well for others.


  • #23
    ANXIOUS
    Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ ANXIOUS


    Murph_D wrote: »
    HM schedule here. (Editable so you can cut and paste into your own doc.)

    You have to read the book though - this is useless by itself, but a handy reference once you're up and running and need to check what's on the menu for the day.

    Could you please tell me what km times easy, tempo and speed should be for someone aiming for 90 mins half? Thank you


  • #24
    chickey2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭ chickey2


    ANXIOUS wrote: »
    Could you please tell me what km times easy, tempo and speed should be for someone aiming for 90 mins half? Thank you

    You can check paces here https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/hmmcalculator/race_equivalency_calculator.php

    Luke Humphrey wrote the Hanson plan but fell out with the Hansons so is now "Luke Humphrey running" but it's the same plan!


  • #25
    ANXIOUS
    Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ ANXIOUS


    chickey2 wrote: »
    You can check paces here https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/hmmcalculator/race_equivalency_calculator.php

    Luke Humphrey wrote the Hanson plan but fell out with the Hansons so is now "Luke Humphrey running" but it's the same plan!

    Thank you, great resource.


  • #26
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,690 ✭✭✭ skyblue46


    I'm going to give the HM plan a go. Just wondering at what end of the range have most of you done the easy and long runs at? The speed and strength paces are very specific but easy and long have a huge variation. Did you mix the paces, aim for mid range or target either extreme?


  • #27
    ANXIOUS
    Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ ANXIOUS


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    I'm going to give the HM plan a go. Just wondering at what end of the range have most of you done the easy and long runs at? The speed and strength paces are very specific but easy and long have a huge variation. Did you mix the paces, aim for mid range or target either extreme?

    Good question, I was going to ask it but then thought it was a newbie question.


  • #28
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,690 ✭✭✭ skyblue46


    ANXIOUS wrote: »
    Good question, I was going to ask it but then thought it was a newbie question.

    Well I don't think it's a newbie question. Haha. I'm very much someone who has always made the easy days easy. The fastest paces for easy are 30 secs per mile faster than my usual, for long runs it's over a minute. My usual paces fall within the range but at the slower end of them.


  • #29
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭ Murph_D


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Well I don't think it's a newbie question. Haha. I'm very much someone who has always made the easy days easy. The fastest paces for easy are 30 secs per mile faster than my usual, for long runs it's over a minute. My usual paces fall within the range but at the slower end of them.

    Everything about your performances to date suggest that you’re doing things right pace wise. I’ve always thought of the fast end of those ranges as being a bit hot too. As long as you’re in the range I’d say you’re OK. That said, I tend to have a mental picture of the middle of the range as the number to aspire to on ‘normal’ days, and happy to hit the low end when tired, recovering, etc.


  • #30
    Glencarraig
    Registered Users Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭ Glencarraig


    I'm gonna have a go at Hanson for DCM, bought the book, great read. I'm still in kinda recovery mode from Boston but trying to get the base of around 40 miles per week before the plan starts on 24th June. I have found it really hard trying to adjust the easy runs to 9.00 min/ml as I always considered 8.00 ish as my easy run. Looking forward to seeing how this pans out for those trying the plan.


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  • #31
    deisedude
    Registered Users Posts: 4,600 ✭✭✭ deisedude


    Out of interest how does Hanson HM plans compare to Pfitzinger and Latter for anyone thats done both?


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