Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

robinph · 21-05-2019 10:58AM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

It shouldn't really come as a surprise that the Bible is the final authority for Christians.

Nope, but in the meantime whilst they are living in this world they need to abide by the rules decided by the inhabitants of this world, which includes them.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 11:21AM

robinph wrote: »

Nope, but in the meantime whilst they are living in this world they need to abide by the rules decided by the inhabitants of this world, which includes them.

By that argument, Brunei and Saudi Arabia are quite right in their attitudes to homosexuality as them's the rules that have been decided. As a Christian, with my ultimate loyalty being to a higher authority, I can critique Brunei, Saudi Arabia (Ireland as well) by pointing to a better way.

I'm not surprised that Israel Folau got sacked, and I also strongly question the wisdom of his posting what he did in the way he did, with no context or nuance. Social media (and internet discussion forums) are not an ideal medium for Christians to speak the truth in love, or to give to anyone who asks a reason for the hope we have (to paraphrase Peter).

But I also strongly refute the notion that he spoke out of hate, or that the message itself is inherently hateful. Go along to a bible believing and teaching church on a Sunday and get to know some Christians, and decide for yourself if they are motivated by love or hate.

robinph · 21-05-2019 11:35AM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

By that argument, Brunei and Saudi Arabia are quite right in their attitudes to homosexuality as them's the rules that have been decided. As a Christian, with my ultimate loyalty being to a higher authority, I can critique Brunei, Saudi Arabia (Ireland as well) by pointing to a better way.

Yes, that is the society that they have decided to create for themselves, but those countries are also part of a wider society of other countries in the world, and other countries are in a position to tell them they are wrong and restrict their interactions and trade with them due to their position on human rights.

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I'm not surprised that Israel Folau got sacked, and I also strongly question the wisdom of his posting what he did in the way he did, with no context or nuance. Social media (and internet discussion forums) are not an ideal medium for Christians to speak the truth in love, or to give to anyone who asks a reason for the hope we have (to paraphrase Peter).

But I also strongly refute the notion that he spoke out of hate, or that the message itself is inherently hateful. Go along to a bible believing and teaching church on a Sunday and get to know some Christians, and decide for yourself if they are motivated by love or hate.

Religion is going to have to explain the loving part of the statement "homosexuals are going to hell" better then as it's clearly being missed. The visuals of the image that he posted were also not exactly renowned as being the colours and styles used when trying to present a loving message.

A statement of "homosexuals are welcome in our church" printed on an image of a pink fluffy cloud is a very different one to "homosexuals are going to hell" printed on a black and yellow warning sign in block capitals and red text.

troyzer · 21-05-2019 12:23PM

robinph wrote: »

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

By that argument, Brunei and Saudi Arabia are quite right in their attitudes to homosexuality as them's the rules that have been decided. As a Christian, with my ultimate loyalty being to a higher authority, I can critique Brunei, Saudi Arabia (Ireland as well) by pointing to a better way.

Yes, that is the society that they have decided to create for themselves, but those countries are also part of a wider society of other countries in the world, and other countries are in a position to tell them they are wrong and restrict their interactions and trade with them due to their position on human rights.

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I'm not surprised that Israel Folau got sacked, and I also strongly question the wisdom of his posting what he did in the way he did, with no context or nuance. Social media (and internet discussion forums) are not an ideal medium for Christians to speak the truth in love, or to give to anyone who asks a reason for the hope we have (to paraphrase Peter).

But I also strongly refute the notion that he spoke out of hate, or that the message itself is inherently hateful. Go along to a bible believing and teaching church on a Sunday and get to know some Christians, and decide for yourself if they are motivated by love or hate.

Religion is going to have to explain the loving part of the statement "homosexuals are going to hell" better then as it's clearly being missed. The visuals of the image that he posted were also not exactly renowned as being the colours and styles used when trying to present a loving message.

A statement of "homosexuals are welcome in our church" printed on an image of a pink fluffy cloud is a very different one to "homosexuals are going to hell" printed on a black and yellow warning sign in block capitals and red text.

Deny the way God made you or he's sending you to hell.

But yeah, God is good.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 12:28PM

robinph wrote: »

Yes, that is the society that they have decided to create for themselves, but those countries are also part of a wider society of other countries in the world, and other countries are in a position to tell them they are wrong and restrict their interactions and trade with them due to their position on human rights.

Wrong on what basis? Because we find it distasteful? From a Christian worldview, I can say that Brunei and Saudi Arabia are objectively wrong in this matter (sinful, in fact) no matter what the weight of international opinion is one way or the other. By your logic, if the international community decides that we need oil more than we need to stand up for vulnerable minorities then it ceases to be a problem.

robinph wrote: »

Religion is going to have to explain the loving part of the statement "homosexuals are going to hell" better then as it's clearly being missed. The visuals of the image that he posted were also not exactly renowned as being the colours and styles used when trying to present a loving message.

A statement of "homosexuals are welcome in our church" printed on an image of a pink fluffy cloud is a very different one to "homosexuals are going to hell" printed on a black and yellow warning sign in block capitals and red text.

Your point about the need to explain these things clearly is well made, but the gospel message is inherently offensive and always will be. You also seem to be operating under the misconception that homosexuality (or even human sexuality more broadly) is central to the Christian message. It's not, and homosexuality or even sexual sin in general is not in some special category by itself. Apart from faith in Jesus, Christians believe that everyone is going to hell which is why evangelism and missionary activity has always been such an important part of Christianity

All people are made in God's image, are precious and valuable, and are also tragically marred by sin and in need of a saviour. Any church that is striving to be truly Christian will be clear that everyone is welcome, and that no-one is objectively more sinful than anyone else. It will also be clear that all are, in fact, sinners and in need of a saviour - Jesus Christ. That will have implications for every area of our lives, including our sexuality, but the primary and pressing need for everyone is to be in a right relationship with God, through faith in Jesus Christ. That is the core and kernel of Christian teaching, and has been since the 1st Century. It is also, as I noted above, inherently offensive as it humbles our pride and calls us to submit to a higher authority outside of ourselves.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 12:32PM

troyzer wrote: »

Deny the way God made you or he's sending you to hell.

But yeah, God is good.

Everyone is a sinner in need of salvation, and no-one is a worse sinner than anyone else. This is a basic and central Christian belief.

By your logic Christians must hate everyone, and not just homosexuals?

troyzer · 21-05-2019 12:47PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Deny the way God made you or he's sending you to hell.

But yeah, God is good.

Everyone is a sinner in need of salvation, and no-one is a worse sinner than anyone else. This is a basic and central Christian belief.

By your logic Christians must hate everyone, and not just homosexuals?

My logic is that there is no logic.

I said it earlier in the thread; if God is all powerful and all knowing then he is also all responsible.

Your belief system states that God made me the way I am with all of my flaws and virtues. He didn't make me gay but he did make people I know gay. He made them gay and also made them lustful and struggle with repressing their nature. In many cases he made them not want to repress their nature and reject the notion that there's something wrong with being gay.

God is responsible for all of this. There can be no free will in a world where a prime mover plans everything out in advance. It's deterministic. How can we be held accountable for the things we do when they're not our fault? It's particularly galling that the one who punishes us is the one who is actually responsible.

Apart from the madness in the bible and all of its inspired atrocities, the central tenant of an all powerful God trying to save us from something he did is just illogical.

And even if it is all true, he certainly isn't worthy of respect because he's not loving and benevolent.

He's the "Stop hitting yourself" God.

theological · 21-05-2019 01:40PM

troyzer wrote: »

Deny the way God made you or he's sending you to hell.

But yeah, God is good.

You're not too far off actually.

Mark 8:34-38 wrote:

And calling the crowd to Him with His disciples, He said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Denying our own selfish interests to pursue God and to serve others is what the Christian is called to.

troyzer · 21-05-2019 01:49PM

theological wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Deny the way God made you or he's sending you to hell.

But yeah, God is good.

You're not too far off actually.

Mark 8:34-38 wrote:

And calling the crowd to Him with his disciples, He said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Denying our own selfish interests to pursue God and to serve others is what the Christian is called to.

But God made us selfish in the first place.

It's baffling to me that billions of people worship a supposedly loving God who toys with people by making them selfish sinners and then castigating them for doing exactly what he designed them to do.

Iscreamkone · 21-05-2019 01:49PM

I feel sorry for the gay atheists who cheat on their partners, they must be super offended

troyzer · 21-05-2019 01:50PM

Iscreamkone wrote: »

I feel sorry for the gay atheists who cheat on their partners, they must be super offended

Well God made them that way after all.

Cabaal · 21-05-2019 01:59PM

troyzer wrote: »

Well God made them that way after all.

yeah, but god will punish them for it to!

robinph · 21-05-2019 02:00PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Wrong on what basis? Because we find it distasteful? From a Christian worldview, I can say that Brunei and Saudi Arabia are objectively wrong in this matter (sinful, in fact) no matter what the weight of international opinion is one way or the other. By your logic, if the international community decides that we need oil more than we need to stand up for vulnerable minorities then it ceases to be a problem.

We can agree that their actions are wrong without needing to bring a deity and your/ their definition of sin into it.

We as the population of another country shape the view of that country on the world stage and if we the people decide that another country should be treated in a different way then it's down to us to make our voices heard to those who are running the country.

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

... but the gospel message is inherently offensive and always will be....

Which brings us back to religious people being upset about how they can no longer be offensive to others like they used to be allowed to get away with. It isn't intolerant for society to not allow religious people to get away with being intolerant anymore.

It is offensive to state that homosexuals will go to hell, and hiding behind religion doesn't change that. Likewise, no amount of claiming "but we love everyone really" changes the fact that saying certain groups of people are unwelcome and are going to hell is a message of hate.

Iscreamkone · 21-05-2019 02:07PM

Cabaal wrote: »

yeah, but god will punish them for it to!

I'm still struggling with "free will" versus "the divine plan/works in mysterious ways". Anyone able to clarify for me?

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 02:35PM

troyzer wrote: »

My logic is that there is no logic.

I said it earlier in the thread; if God is all powerful and all knowing then he is also all responsible.

Your belief system states that God made me the way I am with all of my flaws and virtues. He didn't make me gay but he did make people I know gay. He made them gay and also made them lustful and struggle with repressing their nature. In many cases he made them not want to repress their nature and reject the notion that there's something wrong with being gay.

God is responsible for all of this. There can be no free will in a world where a prime mover plans everything out in advance. It's deterministic. How can we be held accountable for the things we do when they're not our fault? It's particularly galling that the one who punishes us is the one who is actually responsible.

Apart from the madness in the bible and all of its inspired atrocities, the central tenant of an all powerful God trying to save us from something he did is just illogical.

And even if it is all true, he certainly isn't worthy of respect because he's not loving and benevolent.

He's the "Stop hitting yourself" God.

But that's not what Christians believe. It might be what you think we believe, or what you want us to believe because it makes Christianity easily refutable, but that's not how God reveals himself in scripture. God is sovereign and in control of all things. We have free will, and our decisions are real and have moral significance and moral consequences. Those are both unashamedly presented as being true at the same time, and not as in any way contradictory.

For what it's worth, I understand your perspective and if I wasn't a Christian I'd probably agree with you. What you're missing is that God isn't in the dock, you are (and me, and everyone other human being who has ever lived).

troyzer · 21-05-2019 02:47PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

My logic is that there is no logic.

I said it earlier in the thread; if God is all powerful and all knowing then he is also all responsible.

Your belief system states that God made me the way I am with all of my flaws and virtues. He didn't make me gay but he did make people I know gay. He made them gay and also made them lustful and struggle with repressing their nature. In many cases he made them not want to repress their nature and reject the notion that there's something wrong with being gay.

God is responsible for all of this. There can be no free will in a world where a prime mover plans everything out in advance. It's deterministic. How can we be held accountable for the things we do when they're not our fault? It's particularly galling that the one who punishes us is the one who is actually responsible.

Apart from the madness in the bible and all of its inspired atrocities, the central tenant of an all powerful God trying to save us from something he did is just illogical.

And even if it is all true, he certainly isn't worthy of respect because he's not loving and benevolent.

He's the "Stop hitting yourself" God.

But that's not what Christians believe. It might be what you think we believe, or what you want us to believe because it makes Christianity easily refutable, but that's not how God reveals himself in scripture. God is sovereign and in control of all things. We have free will, and our decisions are real and have moral significance and moral consequences. Those are both unashamedly presented as being true at the same time, and not as in any way contradictory.

For what it's worth, I understand your perspective and if I wasn't a Christian I'd probably agree with you. What you're missing is that God isn't in the dock, you are (and me, and everyone other human being who has ever lived).

I know it's not what you believe. But it's the inevitable consequence of what you believe.

You can't say "God has a plan" and "God is all powerful" without accepting that there is no free will. It completely breaks Christianity as a belief system so naturally you reject it.

The nature of Christ sacrificing himself quickly becomes meaningless when you realise that the sin in the world was his fault in the first place.

He's like a super hero deliberately creating a horrible situation so he can be seen saving the day.

Everything you said is contradictory. You cannot have free will when you are designed by an all powerful being who creates you in such a way that you will make these choices.

We do have the illusion of choice. But God already knows what choices we'll make. He knows before he made me whether I'm going to hell or not. Not only that but he made me a person who is keenly interested in science, has pursued a career in science and as a result has generated a scepticism which makes accepting him impossible for me.

You are trying to blame humans for everything wrong and praise him for everything good. He's responsible for everything.

Seriously, even Spider-Man abides by these basic truisms.

"With great power, comes great responsibility".

Or, put another way:

"When you have the power to stop the bad stuff and then it happens, it happened because of you"

Or:

"All that is needed for evil men to prevail is for good men to do nothing"

These are values we all hold dear. That those who can help, should help. But God actually creates these situations were help is needed and then you give him a pass for not helping and it's actually our fault?

The fact that you accept my logic but ignore it is why people like me struggle to take Christians seriously when it comes to honest discussions and why the more strongly opinionated of us think you're all idiots. I don't think this but I do find it really hard to read the comment of someone like yourself who is clearly intelligent basically saying that my argument is air tight but it doesn't matter because God is great

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 02:53PM

robinph wrote: »

We can agree that their actions are wrong without needing to bring a deity and your/ their definition of sin into it.

We as the population of another country shape the view of that country on the world stage and if we the people decide that another country should be treated in a different way then it's down to us to make our voices heard to those who are running the country.

I feel like we're talking past one another, so maybe we should call it a day. On what basis can we agree that their actions are wrong? Because we've collectively decided? Frankly, so what and why should they care?

robinph wrote: »

Which brings us back to religious people being upset about how they can no longer be offensive to others like they used to be allowed to get away with. It isn't intolerant for society to not allow religious people to get away with being intolerant anymore.

It is offensive to state that homosexuals will go to hell, and hiding behind religion doesn't change that. Likewise, no amount of claiming "but we love everyone really" changes the fact that saying certain groups of people are unwelcome and are going to hell is a message of hate.

Again, at the risk of repeating myself. Christians are not to be offensive, the message itself is offensive. It's not that certain groups are going to hell, everyone is apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 03:18PM

troyzer wrote: »

I know it's not what you believe. But it's the inevitable consequence of what you believe.

You can't say "God has a plan" and "God is all powerful" without accepting that there is no free will. It completely breaks Christianity as a belief system so naturally you reject it.

The nature of Christ sacrificing himself quickly becomes meaningless when you realise that the sin in the world was his fault in the first place.

He's like a super hero deliberately creating a horrible situation so he can be seen saving the day.

Everything you said is contradictory. You cannot have free will when you are designed by an all powerful being who creates you in such a way that you will make these choices.

We do have the illusion of choice. But God already knows what choices we'll make. He knows before he made me whether I'm going to hell or not. Not only that but he made me a person who is keenly interested in science, has pursued a career in science and as a result has generated a scepticism which makes accepting him impossible for me.

You are trying to blame humans for everything wrong and praise him for everything good. He's responsible for everything.

Seriously, even Spider-Man abides by these basic truisms.

"With great power, comes great responsibility".

Or, put another way:

"When you have the power to stop the bad stuff and then it happens, it happened because of you"

Or:

"All that is needed for evil men to prevail is for good men to do nothing"

These are values we all hold dear. That those who can help, should help. But God actually creates these situations were help is needed and then you give him a pass for not helping and it's actually our fault?

I think you're confusing God's knowledge with his sovereignty. He does indeed know all things, but that is not the same as saying that he is the direct and immediate cause of all things. I also think you might be confused about the nature of our free will, which isn't free in an absolute sense. There's any number of books, articles and websites that explain these things much more competently than I can. But to suggest that Christianity is necessarily deterministic is simply untrue.

Christianity is clear that God is not the author of sin as you suggest above. It is also clear that sin is real, and that God has done something about it in the person of Jesus. It's up to you (really, even though I believe in predestination!

) whether you are going to believe that or not.

troyzer wrote: »

The fact that you accept my logic but ignore it is why people like me struggle to take Christians seriously when it comes to honest discussions and why the more strongly opinionated of us think you're all idiots. I don't think this but I do find it really hard to read the comment of someone like yourself who is clearly intelligent basically saying that my argument is air tight but it doesn't matter because God is great

I'm not accepting your logic unconditionally, and I don't think your argument is watertight. I'm saying that it's plausible, given the presuppositions you bring to the table.

I have more than adequate evidence (from scripture and my own experience) that God is good, trustworthy and just. Does that mean that every question I have is answered in fully exhaustive detail? Of course not. At it's most basic, Christianity is founded on a relationship with a person, and at some point we need to decide whether we're going to trust he is who he says he is. That probably sounds like foolishness and nonsense to you, but there it is.

robinph · 21-05-2019 03:18PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I feel like we're talking past one another, so maybe we should call it a day. On what basis can we agree that their actions are wrong? Because we've collectively decided? Frankly, so what and why should they care?

Again, at the risk of repeating myself. Christians are not to be offensive, the message itself is offensive. It's not that certain groups are going to hell, everyone is apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If the message itself is offensive then maybe it should be considered to be changed and admit that it is probably the wrong message to be giving if you want people to join your group.

troyzer · 21-05-2019 03:31PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I know it's not what you believe. But it's the inevitable consequence of what you believe.

You can't say "God has a plan" and "God is all powerful" without accepting that there is no free will. It completely breaks Christianity as a belief system so naturally you reject it.

The nature of Christ sacrificing himself quickly becomes meaningless when you realise that the sin in the world was his fault in the first place.

He's like a super hero deliberately creating a horrible situation so he can be seen saving the day.

Everything you said is contradictory. You cannot have free will when you are designed by an all powerful being who creates you in such a way that you will make these choices.

We do have the illusion of choice. But God already knows what choices we'll make. He knows before he made me whether I'm going to hell or not. Not only that but he made me a person who is keenly interested in science, has pursued a career in science and as a result has generated a scepticism which makes accepting him impossible for me.

You are trying to blame humans for everything wrong and praise him for everything good. He's responsible for everything.

Seriously, even Spider-Man abides by these basic truisms.

"With great power, comes great responsibility".

Or, put another way:

"When you have the power to stop the bad stuff and then it happens, it happened because of you"

Or:

"All that is needed for evil men to prevail is for good men to do nothing"

These are values we all hold dear. That those who can help, should help. But God actually creates these situations were help is needed and then you give him a pass for not helping and it's actually our fault?

I think you're confusing God's knowledge with his sovereignty. He does indeed know all things, but that is not the same as saying that he is the direct and immediate cause of all things. I also think you might be confused about the nature of our free will, which isn't free in an absolute sense. There's any number of books, articles and websites that explain these things much more competently than I can. But to suggest that Christianity is necessarily deterministic is simply untrue.

Christianity is clear that God is not the author of sin as you suggest above. It is also clear that sin is real, and that God has done something about it in the person of Jesus. It's up to you (really, even though I believe in predestination! ) whether you are going to believe that or not.

troyzer wrote: »

The fact that you accept my logic but ignore it is why people like me struggle to take Christians seriously when it comes to honest discussions and why the more strongly opinionated of us think you're all idiots. I don't think this but I do find it really hard to read the comment of someone like yourself who is clearly intelligent basically saying that my argument is air tight but it doesn't matter because God is great

I'm not accepting your logic unconditionally, and I don't think your argument is watertight. I'm saying that it's plausible, given the presuppositions you bring to the table.

I have more than adequate evidence (from scripture and my own experience) that God is good, trustworthy and just. Does that mean that every question I have is answered in fully exhaustive detail? Of course not. At it's most basic, Christianity is founded on a relationship with a person, and at some point we need to decide whether we're going to trust he is who he says he is. That probably sounds like foolishness and nonsense to you, but there it is.

I never suggested that God controls everything directly, thought he can. It's curious that he used to perform miracles regularly in the past but won't intervene when an innocent child dies of brain cancer.

I'm suggesting that if you had the ability to know everything that was going to happen and the power to dictate it, then you have to own it.

If I knew that if I took my sister's hairbrush that she was going to go mad and then did it, then it's my fault.

Your counter argument is that she had the choice to get mad. But she didn't, because I also created her so that she would get mad. I created her that way and knew she'd get mad long before she was ever born. Before I even created the universe actually.

If the universe is in a petri dish, not only does God control all of the variables but he knows exactly what's going to happen and has the power to directly interfere. To blame us is madness.

Christianity is deterministic, it just is. And you haven't explained why you think it isn't. Handwaving it by saying there are books I could read isn't good enough. The problem of suffering in a world where you praise the person who causes all of the suffering is the single biggest weakness of the Christian logic.

The Greeks for example never pretended their Gods weren't petty and self interested. In that sense, they were more logical.

Christianity might be clear that he's not the author of all sin. The only way that's true is if he's not all powerful and all knowing.

God wouldn't have needed to save us if he hadn't created the issues. Not only that, but why would he have to do it by crucifying himself? He could have solved it any way he wanted but chose that, why?

Similar with Noah's ark, why the theatrics? Why not just Thanos it? Because the people who made up these stories never thought of it.

It's not up to me whether I believe in your God or not. It's up to your God. So it's hardly my fault that I was born sceptical resist authority, it's his fault.

I don't bring any presuppositions to the table other than Christian theology. I'm using the premise of your faith to show how ridiculous it is.

Saying you believe in God because it says it in the bible and believing that the bible is true because God inspired it (even though men edited it) is the definition of a circular argument.

It's not about whether or not I trust God. He created me the way I am. I don't have a choice in this.

Just like he created Hitler knowing what he was going to do, indeed he created him that way.

If God isn't responsible for the holocaust then he isn't all powerful.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 03:33PM

robinph wrote: »

If the message itself is offensive then maybe it should be considered to be changed and admit that it is probably the wrong message to be giving if you want people to join your group.

You think I should change the message of the gospel to make it more palatable?

That's a pretty apt summary of this entire thread.

Cabaal · 21-05-2019 03:38PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Again, at the risk of repeating myself. Christians are not to be offensive, the message itself is offensive. It's not that certain groups are going to hell, everyone is apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If the message is offensive then change it, its very simple.
The bible has been edited before, nothing stopping it again.

Its full or errors and contradictions so might do it no harm to get a good editor in to do some cleaning up.

Its just silly to claim you are not offensive when you continue to have the message in the book you follow.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 03:47PM

troyzer wrote: »

I never suggested that God controls everything directly, thought he can. It's curious that he used to perform miracles regularly in the past but won't intervene when an innocent child dies of brain cancer.....If God isn't responsible for the holocaust then he isn't all powerful.

I'm going to bow out. If you're really interested in getting answers to your objections and questions, then read a good book on apologetics. Sorry if you see that as handwaving, but if you're sincere then that's a better place to go than ranting at me on boards.

If your questions aren't sincere, then it's all just a convenient way to dismiss Christianity so that you can go on doing exactly what you want to do, and I'm wasting my time.

Iscreamkone · 21-05-2019 03:49PM

And thieves also?
Hell seems pretty harsh for a small theft.
What about not paying your TV licence - that's stealing from us all isn't it?
Do devout christians really believe that thieves of small amounts of goods should be punished by spending eternity in Hell?
Not very christian in my opinion if so.

troyzer · 21-05-2019 03:54PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I never suggested that God controls everything directly, thought he can. It's curious that he used to perform miracles regularly in the past but won't intervene when an innocent child dies of brain cancer.....If God isn't responsible for the holocaust then he isn't all powerful.

I'm going to bow out. If you're really interested in getting answers to your objections and questions, then read a good book on apologetics. Sorry if you see that as handwaving, but if you're sincere then that's a better place to go than ranting at me on boards.

If your questions aren't sincere, then it's all just a convenient way to dismiss Christianity so that you can go on doing exactly what you want to do, and I'm wasting my time.

These are really, really, really basic questions that you can't answer. I am genuinely interested in getting an answer, YOUR answer.

I'm interested in how individuals can justify the contradictions in their faith. I'm not interested in what some guy in America says should be the reason why. I'm interested to know exactly why you read what I say and continue being a Christian.

It's probably some combination of faith and dismissing me as not understanding. That's usually the way. But that isn't an intellectual position.

robinph · 21-05-2019 03:55PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

You think I should change the message of the gospel to make it more palatable?

That's a pretty apt summary of this entire thread.

Well I actually think you should probably stop wasting your time arguing the case for something that doesn't exist, but in the absence of that happening, if religion could stop deliberately trying to offend by spreading offensive messages and then claiming that them being offensive is actually a sign of love and people complaining about religion being offensive is being intolerant of religions right to be offensive then it would be a good start.

Western society has decided that it is no longer palatable to allow homophobia to go unchallenged, it is time that religion caught up if it want's to remain a part of this society.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 04:38PM

troyzer wrote: »

These are really, really, really basic questions that you can't answer. I am genuinely interested in getting an answer, YOUR answer.

I'm interested in how individuals can justify the contradictions in their faith. I'm not interested in what some guy in America says should be the reason why. I'm interested to know exactly why you read what I say and continue being a Christian.

It's probably some combination of faith and dismissing me as not understanding. That's usually the way. But that isn't an intellectual position.

Can't answer? Do you really think you're the first person to ask these questions? It's interesting that you think I'm telling you to read what some American has to say - because evangelical Christianity is just for American right wing knuckle draggers, amiright? I am merely suggesting that if you have sincere intellectual objections to Christianity then it might be an idea to read something that a Christian intellectual has written on the subject.

However, I will do my own half-baked best to being to give you an answer.

On God's sovereignty vs our free will, you're looking for a contradiction where there isn't one. God has chosen to create us with the ability to make real and significant moral decisions. That means he doesn't "dictate everything that we're going to do," at least not in the sense that you seem to think he does (or should). I touched on this above, when I mentioned God's knowledge vs his sovereignty. Has God in some sense chosen to limit his power in granting us free will? Maybe, but that's speculative. Scripture is unembarrassed about God's sovereignty and our freedom both being true at the same time, and so am I. That Christianity is not a deterministic religion is a simple matter of record.

You've also mentioned the problem of evil and suffering, which I think is the most significant objection to Christianity that there is. Why doesn't God just stop all the horrible things that happen? The short answer is that we don't know, but we do know that he is good and just and will put all wrong things right. To you that's just pie in the sky, and an abdication of intellectual responsibility, I get it.

But the problem of evil is a far greater problem for you than it is for me. If God isn't real then it's all just meaningless, there is no justice ultimately and nothing ever get's put right. In fact, what does the idea of evil even mean if we're just biological scum on the third rock form the sun?

And you're not totally wrong when you talk about lack of faith and not understanding. Those are both relevant, because Christianity is a spiritual matter, and spiritually discerned. Again, I'm sure you see that as a cop out but no-one has ever been argued into the kingdom of God.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 04:57PM

robinph wrote: »

Well I actually think you should probably stop wasting your time arguing the case for something that doesn't exist

You lost me after this :P

robinph · 21-05-2019 05:01PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

You lost me after this :P

And that was the bit I expected you to ignore.

ChrisJ84 · 21-05-2019 05:15PM

robinph wrote: »

And that was the bit I expected you to ignore.

I hope you'd agree that it's the nub of the issue. If it's not true then Christians are definitely deluded, arguably hateful, and really quite pitiful. If it is true, then Christianity sets the terms for what is true and loving, and something you should probably give serious consideration to.

Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

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