ChrisJ84 wrote: » It shouldn't really come as a surprise that the Bible is the final authority for Christians.
robinph wrote: » Nope, but in the meantime whilst they are living in this world they need to abide by the rules decided by the inhabitants of this world, which includes them.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » By that argument, Brunei and Saudi Arabia are quite right in their attitudes to homosexuality as them's the rules that have been decided. As a Christian, with my ultimate loyalty being to a higher authority, I can critique Brunei, Saudi Arabia (Ireland as well) by pointing to a better way.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » I'm not surprised that Israel Folau got sacked, and I also strongly question the wisdom of his posting what he did in the way he did, with no context or nuance. Social media (and internet discussion forums) are not an ideal medium for Christians to speak the truth in love, or to give to anyone who asks a reason for the hope we have (to paraphrase Peter). But I also strongly refute the notion that he spoke out of hate, or that the message itself is inherently hateful. Go along to a bible believing and teaching church on a Sunday and get to know some Christians, and decide for yourself if they are motivated by love or hate.
robinph wrote: » ChrisJ84 wrote: » By that argument, Brunei and Saudi Arabia are quite right in their attitudes to homosexuality as them's the rules that have been decided. As a Christian, with my ultimate loyalty being to a higher authority, I can critique Brunei, Saudi Arabia (Ireland as well) by pointing to a better way. Yes, that is the society that they have decided to create for themselves, but those countries are also part of a wider society of other countries in the world, and other countries are in a position to tell them they are wrong and restrict their interactions and trade with them due to their position on human rights. ChrisJ84 wrote: » I'm not surprised that Israel Folau got sacked, and I also strongly question the wisdom of his posting what he did in the way he did, with no context or nuance. Social media (and internet discussion forums) are not an ideal medium for Christians to speak the truth in love, or to give to anyone who asks a reason for the hope we have (to paraphrase Peter). But I also strongly refute the notion that he spoke out of hate, or that the message itself is inherently hateful. Go along to a bible believing and teaching church on a Sunday and get to know some Christians, and decide for yourself if they are motivated by love or hate. Religion is going to have to explain the loving part of the statement "homosexuals are going to hell" better then as it's clearly being missed. The visuals of the image that he posted were also not exactly renowned as being the colours and styles used when trying to present a loving message. A statement of "homosexuals are welcome in our church" printed on an image of a pink fluffy cloud is a very different one to "homosexuals are going to hell" printed on a black and yellow warning sign in block capitals and red text.
robinph wrote: » Yes, that is the society that they have decided to create for themselves, but those countries are also part of a wider society of other countries in the world, and other countries are in a position to tell them they are wrong and restrict their interactions and trade with them due to their position on human rights.
robinph wrote: » Religion is going to have to explain the loving part of the statement "homosexuals are going to hell" better then as it's clearly being missed. The visuals of the image that he posted were also not exactly renowned as being the colours and styles used when trying to present a loving message. A statement of "homosexuals are welcome in our church" printed on an image of a pink fluffy cloud is a very different one to "homosexuals are going to hell" printed on a black and yellow warning sign in block capitals and red text.
troyzer wrote: » Deny the way God made you or he's sending you to hell. But yeah, God is good.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » troyzer wrote: » Deny the way God made you or he's sending you to hell. But yeah, God is good. Everyone is a sinner in need of salvation, and no-one is a worse sinner than anyone else. This is a basic and central Christian belief. By your logic Christians must hate everyone, and not just homosexuals?
Mark 8:34-38 wrote: And calling the crowd to Him with His disciples, He said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
theological wrote: » troyzer wrote: » Deny the way God made you or he's sending you to hell. But yeah, God is good. You're not too far off actually. Mark 8:34-38 wrote: And calling the crowd to Him with his disciples, He said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” Denying our own selfish interests to pursue God and to serve others is what the Christian is called to.
Mark 8:34-38 wrote: And calling the crowd to Him with his disciples, He said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Iscreamkone wrote: » I feel sorry for the gay atheists who cheat on their partners, they must be super offended
troyzer wrote: » Well God made them that way after all.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » Wrong on what basis? Because we find it distasteful? From a Christian worldview, I can say that Brunei and Saudi Arabia are objectively wrong in this matter (sinful, in fact) no matter what the weight of international opinion is one way or the other. By your logic, if the international community decides that we need oil more than we need to stand up for vulnerable minorities then it ceases to be a problem.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » ... but the gospel message is inherently offensive and always will be....
Cabaal wrote: » yeah, but god will punish them for it to!
troyzer wrote: » My logic is that there is no logic. I said it earlier in the thread; if God is all powerful and all knowing then he is also all responsible. Your belief system states that God made me the way I am with all of my flaws and virtues. He didn't make me gay but he did make people I know gay. He made them gay and also made them lustful and struggle with repressing their nature. In many cases he made them not want to repress their nature and reject the notion that there's something wrong with being gay. God is responsible for all of this. There can be no free will in a world where a prime mover plans everything out in advance. It's deterministic. How can we be held accountable for the things we do when they're not our fault? It's particularly galling that the one who punishes us is the one who is actually responsible. Apart from the madness in the bible and all of its inspired atrocities, the central tenant of an all powerful God trying to save us from something he did is just illogical. And even if it is all true, he certainly isn't worthy of respect because he's not loving and benevolent. He's the "Stop hitting yourself" God.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » troyzer wrote: » My logic is that there is no logic. I said it earlier in the thread; if God is all powerful and all knowing then he is also all responsible. Your belief system states that God made me the way I am with all of my flaws and virtues. He didn't make me gay but he did make people I know gay. He made them gay and also made them lustful and struggle with repressing their nature. In many cases he made them not want to repress their nature and reject the notion that there's something wrong with being gay. God is responsible for all of this. There can be no free will in a world where a prime mover plans everything out in advance. It's deterministic. How can we be held accountable for the things we do when they're not our fault? It's particularly galling that the one who punishes us is the one who is actually responsible. Apart from the madness in the bible and all of its inspired atrocities, the central tenant of an all powerful God trying to save us from something he did is just illogical. And even if it is all true, he certainly isn't worthy of respect because he's not loving and benevolent. He's the "Stop hitting yourself" God. But that's not what Christians believe. It might be what you think we believe, or what you want us to believe because it makes Christianity easily refutable, but that's not how God reveals himself in scripture. God is sovereign and in control of all things. We have free will, and our decisions are real and have moral significance and moral consequences. Those are both unashamedly presented as being true at the same time, and not as in any way contradictory. For what it's worth, I understand your perspective and if I wasn't a Christian I'd probably agree with you. What you're missing is that God isn't in the dock, you are (and me, and everyone other human being who has ever lived).
robinph wrote: » We can agree that their actions are wrong without needing to bring a deity and your/ their definition of sin into it. We as the population of another country shape the view of that country on the world stage and if we the people decide that another country should be treated in a different way then it's down to us to make our voices heard to those who are running the country.
robinph wrote: » Which brings us back to religious people being upset about how they can no longer be offensive to others like they used to be allowed to get away with. It isn't intolerant for society to not allow religious people to get away with being intolerant anymore. It is offensive to state that homosexuals will go to hell, and hiding behind religion doesn't change that. Likewise, no amount of claiming "but we love everyone really" changes the fact that saying certain groups of people are unwelcome and are going to hell is a message of hate.
troyzer wrote: » I know it's not what you believe. But it's the inevitable consequence of what you believe. You can't say "God has a plan" and "God is all powerful" without accepting that there is no free will. It completely breaks Christianity as a belief system so naturally you reject it. The nature of Christ sacrificing himself quickly becomes meaningless when you realise that the sin in the world was his fault in the first place. He's like a super hero deliberately creating a horrible situation so he can be seen saving the day. Everything you said is contradictory. You cannot have free will when you are designed by an all powerful being who creates you in such a way that you will make these choices. We do have the illusion of choice. But God already knows what choices we'll make. He knows before he made me whether I'm going to hell or not. Not only that but he made me a person who is keenly interested in science, has pursued a career in science and as a result has generated a scepticism which makes accepting him impossible for me. You are trying to blame humans for everything wrong and praise him for everything good. He's responsible for everything. Seriously, even Spider-Man abides by these basic truisms. "With great power, comes great responsibility". Or, put another way: "When you have the power to stop the bad stuff and then it happens, it happened because of you" Or: "All that is needed for evil men to prevail is for good men to do nothing" These are values we all hold dear. That those who can help, should help. But God actually creates these situations were help is needed and then you give him a pass for not helping and it's actually our fault?
troyzer wrote: » The fact that you accept my logic but ignore it is why people like me struggle to take Christians seriously when it comes to honest discussions and why the more strongly opinionated of us think you're all idiots. I don't think this but I do find it really hard to read the comment of someone like yourself who is clearly intelligent basically saying that my argument is air tight but it doesn't matter because God is great
ChrisJ84 wrote: » I feel like we're talking past one another, so maybe we should call it a day. On what basis can we agree that their actions are wrong? Because we've collectively decided? Frankly, so what and why should they care? Again, at the risk of repeating myself. Christians are not to be offensive, the message itself is offensive. It's not that certain groups are going to hell, everyone is apart from faith in Jesus Christ.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » troyzer wrote: » I know it's not what you believe. But it's the inevitable consequence of what you believe. You can't say "God has a plan" and "God is all powerful" without accepting that there is no free will. It completely breaks Christianity as a belief system so naturally you reject it. The nature of Christ sacrificing himself quickly becomes meaningless when you realise that the sin in the world was his fault in the first place. He's like a super hero deliberately creating a horrible situation so he can be seen saving the day. Everything you said is contradictory. You cannot have free will when you are designed by an all powerful being who creates you in such a way that you will make these choices. We do have the illusion of choice. But God already knows what choices we'll make. He knows before he made me whether I'm going to hell or not. Not only that but he made me a person who is keenly interested in science, has pursued a career in science and as a result has generated a scepticism which makes accepting him impossible for me. You are trying to blame humans for everything wrong and praise him for everything good. He's responsible for everything. Seriously, even Spider-Man abides by these basic truisms. "With great power, comes great responsibility". Or, put another way: "When you have the power to stop the bad stuff and then it happens, it happened because of you" Or: "All that is needed for evil men to prevail is for good men to do nothing" These are values we all hold dear. That those who can help, should help. But God actually creates these situations were help is needed and then you give him a pass for not helping and it's actually our fault? I think you're confusing God's knowledge with his sovereignty. He does indeed know all things, but that is not the same as saying that he is the direct and immediate cause of all things. I also think you might be confused about the nature of our free will, which isn't free in an absolute sense. There's any number of books, articles and websites that explain these things much more competently than I can. But to suggest that Christianity is necessarily deterministic is simply untrue. Christianity is clear that God is not the author of sin as you suggest above. It is also clear that sin is real, and that God has done something about it in the person of Jesus. It's up to you (really, even though I believe in predestination! ) whether you are going to believe that or not. troyzer wrote: » The fact that you accept my logic but ignore it is why people like me struggle to take Christians seriously when it comes to honest discussions and why the more strongly opinionated of us think you're all idiots. I don't think this but I do find it really hard to read the comment of someone like yourself who is clearly intelligent basically saying that my argument is air tight but it doesn't matter because God is great I'm not accepting your logic unconditionally, and I don't think your argument is watertight. I'm saying that it's plausible, given the presuppositions you bring to the table. I have more than adequate evidence (from scripture and my own experience) that God is good, trustworthy and just. Does that mean that every question I have is answered in fully exhaustive detail? Of course not. At it's most basic, Christianity is founded on a relationship with a person, and at some point we need to decide whether we're going to trust he is who he says he is. That probably sounds like foolishness and nonsense to you, but there it is.
robinph wrote: » If the message itself is offensive then maybe it should be considered to be changed and admit that it is probably the wrong message to be giving if you want people to join your group.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » Again, at the risk of repeating myself. Christians are not to be offensive, the message itself is offensive. It's not that certain groups are going to hell, everyone is apart from faith in Jesus Christ.
troyzer wrote: » I never suggested that God controls everything directly, thought he can. It's curious that he used to perform miracles regularly in the past but won't intervene when an innocent child dies of brain cancer.....If God isn't responsible for the holocaust then he isn't all powerful.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » troyzer wrote: » I never suggested that God controls everything directly, thought he can. It's curious that he used to perform miracles regularly in the past but won't intervene when an innocent child dies of brain cancer.....If God isn't responsible for the holocaust then he isn't all powerful. I'm going to bow out. If you're really interested in getting answers to your objections and questions, then read a good book on apologetics. Sorry if you see that as handwaving, but if you're sincere then that's a better place to go than ranting at me on boards. If your questions aren't sincere, then it's all just a convenient way to dismiss Christianity so that you can go on doing exactly what you want to do, and I'm wasting my time.
ChrisJ84 wrote: » You think I should change the message of the gospel to make it more palatable? That's a pretty apt summary of this entire thread.
troyzer wrote: » These are really, really, really basic questions that you can't answer. I am genuinely interested in getting an answer, YOUR answer. I'm interested in how individuals can justify the contradictions in their faith. I'm not interested in what some guy in America says should be the reason why. I'm interested to know exactly why you read what I say and continue being a Christian. It's probably some combination of faith and dismissing me as not understanding. That's usually the way. But that isn't an intellectual position.
robinph wrote: » Well I actually think you should probably stop wasting your time arguing the case for something that doesn't exist
ChrisJ84 wrote: » You lost me after this :P
robinph wrote: » And that was the bit I expected you to ignore.
