Public Service to Civil Service

Scienceless · 19-05-2019 6:31pm #1

If you have been working in the public service for 16 years and accept a job offer in the civil service can you bring your service with you, i.e. your increments accrued and be placed on the corresponding point on the civil service salary scale?
But, in order to be placed on a corresponding point on the civil service salary scale it would mean going on to the first long service increment.
Thanks,
Scienceless.

eimaj18 · 19-05-2019 6:39pm

Scienceless wrote: »

If you have been working in the public service for 16 years and accept a job offer in the civil service can you bring your service with you, i.e. your increments accrued and be placed on the corresponding point on the civil service salary scale?
But, in order to be placed on a corresponding point on the civil service salary scale it would mean going on to the first long service increment.
Thanks,
Scienceless.

As far as I know your service doesn’t carry (which sucks!). I was recently going from civil to public and was told I’d take a 10k pay cut! I know Fords are working on regularising this but it hasn’t gone through.

Scienceless · 19-05-2019 6:53pm

eimaj18 wrote: »

As far as I know your service doesn’t carry (which sucks!). I was recently going from civil to public and was told I’d take a 10k pay cut! I know Fords are working on regularising this but it hasn’t gone through.

Thanks... so I assume it goes both ways?
Btw.. fords?

C.O.Y.B.I.B · 19-05-2019 9:06pm

Scienceless wrote: »

Thanks... so I assume it goes both ways?
Btw.. fords?

Service can definitely be carried from Public to Civil and you shouldn't have to start on 1st point . DPER have a circular in relation to this .

Mike Guide 69 · 19-05-2019 10:42pm

Does this also apply going from public service to local government as well (County Councils) ?,thanks...

C.O.Y.B.I.B · 19-05-2019 10:51pm

Mike Guide 69 wrote: »

Does this also apply going from public service to local government as well (County Councils) ?,thanks...

Yes , I know first hand of someone transferring from a public sector body to a county council who went to a salary scale matching their current point on the scale . However that wasn't covered by the DPER agreement and was credit given at the discretion of the local authority . HSE also give similar credit for other public service employees.

Scienceless · 19-05-2019 10:54pm

C.O.Y.B.I.B wrote: »

Service can definitely be carried from Public to Civil and you shouldn't have to start on 1st point . DPER have a circular in relation to this .

Thanks, had a quick search on DPER website for that circular but got over 300 results, any idea what year that circular was issued or, even better a link?!

Mike Guide 69 · 19-05-2019 11:05pm

C.O.Y.B.I.B wrote: »

Yes , I know first hand of someone transferring from a public sector body to a county council who went to a salary scale matching their current point on the scale . However that wasn't covered by the DPER agreement and was credit given at the discretion of the local authority . HSE also give similar credit for other public service employees.

Thanks for clarifying ,the reason I was asking ,is that I work in semi state (public service) and have close to 15 years service CO, there’s an opportunity for me to work at a local county council, asked my local union rep , was there a case that I could transfer my service/incremental scale into the county council and was told “no,that if I resigned and started that position then it would not be possible to”

Union rep did mention ,that it would be up to the local authority,if they wanted to match my senior incremental scale,but that would be highly unlikely..

eimaj18 · 19-05-2019 11:09pm

C.O.Y.B.I.B wrote: »

Service can definitely be carried from Public to Civil and you shouldn't have to start on 1st point . DPER have a circular in relation to this .

Would be interested to see this too. I was told Civil to Public no, I would assume it would be similar vice versa. Hmmmm.

Gumbo · 19-05-2019 11:50pm

Mike Guide 69 wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying ,the reason I was asking ,is that I work in semi state (public service) and have close to 15 years service CO, there’s an opportunity for me to work at a local county council, asked my local union rep , was there a case that I could transfer my service/incremental scale into the county council and was told “no,that if I resigned and started that position then it would not be possible to”

Union rep did mention ,that it would be up to the local authority,if they wanted to match my senior incremental scale,but that would be highly unlikely..

Semi state.
Can you elaborate?

You cannot carry over entitlements from semi state to public sector in my experience (which a local authority is). Many assume LA’s are civil service, but they are public service.

November Golf · 20-05-2019 2:37am

Scienceless wrote: »

Thanks, had a quick search on DPER website for that circular but got over 300 results, any idea what year that circular was issued or, even better a link?!

Agreement on incremental credit for previous service for entry levels at Clerical Officer, Executive Officer, or equivalent grades represented by the Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) and Public Services Executive Union (PSEU)

Circular 21/2004

C.O.Y.B.I.B · 20-05-2019 8:25am

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

Agreement on incremental credit for previous service for entry levels at Clerical Officer, Executive Officer, or equivalent grades represented by the Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) and Public Services Executive Union (PSEU)

Circular 21/2004

This also exists for Higher Grades , definitely HEO at least. I don't have a soft copy of it , but I have a hard copy somewhere I can dig out .
As for the local authority , I know one person who went from non-hse hospital to LA and went in near top of scale. I have also seen entrants to same hospital come in from Priv sector and be given credit for experience.

C.O.Y.B.I.B · 20-05-2019 8:37am

C.O.Y.B.I.B wrote: »

This also exists for Higher Grades , definitely HEO at least. I don't have a soft copy of it , but I have a hard copy somewhere I can dig out .
As for the local authority , I know one person who went from non-hse hospital to LA and went in near top of scale. I have also seen entrants to same hospital come in from Priv sector and be given credit for experience.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-02-02a.381

20-05-2019 8:44am

straight to the hr/payroll of the new employing body and get it in writing

anyone else you ask is a waste of your time, its that much of a minefield, with so many variables.

the only two that actually matter are the will of the local hr and the discretion they have in exercising it.

best guess is that you might go over at current scale but mark time without another increment until the time had passed to get there as if you had started on pt 1 on day 1

but seriously- theres only one place to get a firm answer (and seriously- in writing!)

Scienceless · 20-05-2019 9:06am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

straight to the hr/payroll of the new employing body and get it in writing

anyone else you ask is a waste of your time, its that much of a minefield, with so many variables.

the only two that actually matter are the will of the local hr and the discretion they have in exercising it.

best guess is that you might go over at current scale but mark time without another increment until the time had passed to get there as if you had started on pt 1 on day 1

but seriously- theres only one place to get a firm answer (and seriously- in writing!)

Thanks,

I am particularly interested to find out, given the comparable point on the CS salary scale I would be moving to is the first long service increment, will my PS service count to allow this as it would for other points on the salary scale before the first LSI ?

Or could they say the LSI is only given after time served in the actual job it applies to?

I had thought there was an overall principle in these situations that you couldn’t be any ‘worse off’ after such a transfer.

I will approach the relevant HR dept, haven’t spoken to any HR people in years.

20-05-2019 9:16am

if it is interpreted as an external move you certainly can end up worse off. and i doubt the principle would be future-proof either way, if you get me

interested to hear the answer you get

Dr Sunshine · 20-05-2019 12:27pm

Scienceless wrote: »

Thanks,

I am particularly interested to find out, given the comparable point on the CS salary scale I would be moving to is the first long service increment, will my PS service count to allow this as it would for other points on the salary scale before the first LSI ?

Or could they say the LSI is only given after time served in the actual job it applies to?

I had thought there was an overall principle in these situations that you couldn’t be any ‘worse off’ after such a transfer.

I will approach the relevant HR dept, haven’t spoken to any HR people in years.

If your grade is considered analogous you would transfer at Max of scale, no one can transfer on LSI

Check out the following for details

https://hr.per.gov.ie/starting-pay-on-recruitment/

Mike Guide 69 · 20-05-2019 1:14pm

Dr Sunshine wrote: »

If your grade is considered analogous you would transfer at Max of scale, no one can transfer on LSI

Check out the following for details

https://hr.per.gov.ie/starting-pay-on-recruitment/

Just wondering would that also apply if you are going from semi state to local authority?

Bearing in mind,I’m referring to ,if you ceased your current position and decided to take up a new position with the local authority

Dr Sunshine · 20-05-2019 2:02pm

Mike,
You'd need to check with HR in the local authority as civil service circulars and DPER guidelines don't apply .

Nigel Fairservice · 20-05-2019 2:20pm

As far as I know service is not treated like for like between civil and public service.

20-05-2019 2:25pm

Nigel Fairservice wrote: »

As far as I know service is not treated like for like between civil and public service.

theres things it is and things it isnt!

Squatter · 20-05-2019 2:26pm

While it's great to see helpful advice and assistance being given by other Boards contributors, surely the question raised by the OP is one that his/her Union Head Office should immediately be able to answer? (I'm assuming that, like the vast majority of Public Servants, s/he's in a union).

Because if a Union can't help a member in a situation like this - which must occur with reasonable frequency - then it's really not worth joining!

20-05-2019 2:37pm

Squatter wrote: »

While it's great to see helpful advice and assistance being given by other Boards contributors, surely the question raised by the OP is one that his/her Union Head Office should immediately be able to answer? (I'm assuming that, like the vast majority of Public Servants, s/he's in a union).

Because if a Union can't help a member in a situation like this - which must occur with reasonable frequency - then it's really not worth joining!

you could certainly ask your union to ask the local hr

but until the officer has asked themselves and received an answer they are unhappy with i dont see the advantage tbh

20-05-2019 2:43pm

The short answer is...it depends. And it depends an awful lot on the local HR in the Department to which you are moving.

Here's 3 examples I was heavily involved in:

ME: 14 years in public and moved to civil (EO in both). Transferred all leave, pensionable service and increments over no problem. Only thing I lost was a number of days time off in lieu which I had accrued and the new HR wouldn't honour. Eventually got paid by the old job so happy days.
Old work colleague who left after getting promoted from top of CO equivalent to EO. Started at point 5 or 6 on the EO scale, everything transferred across as well.
Old work colleague who was in line for a promotion from CO equivalent to EO. New HR insisted that the PAS documentation stated that anybody who is not a serving civil servant was not entitled to any progression up the scale and had to start at the entry point. He fought tooth and nail but eventually had to accept a ~€4k pay cut* to get 'promoted'
Old work colleague who was in the same competition as number 3 above, but way further down the OOM. Got panicked by the treatment of chap number 3 so applied for a CO open comp in the meantime, which he did well in and accepted. Moved across (at the equivalent grade) then came up on the EO panel 5 months later and got to start as EO on point 6 or something. It was a different Dept. so not sure if it would have applied in Dept. number 3.

*I think he eventually negotiated that he'd stay on his current point on the scale but wouldn't receive any increments until x years had passed and he reached that point, but haven't confirmed it with the person in question, so can't be sure.

I was the union rep for the 3 above cases.

20-05-2019 2:46pm

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

Agreement on incremental credit for previous service for entry levels at Clerical Officer, Executive Officer, or equivalent grades represented by the Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) and Public Services Executive Union (PSEU)

Circular 21/2004

The HR unit in question at point 3 on my previous post countered that circular with an argument along the lines of:

The circular clearly states "equivalent grades represented by Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) and Public Services Executive Union (PSEU)" and the employee in question is in fact NOT represented by either of these two Trade Unions, so the circular does not apply

He was represented by IMPACT/Fórsa at the time.

Squatter · 20-05-2019 2:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

you could certainly ask your union to ask the local hr

but until the officer has asked themselves and received an answer they are unhappy with i dont see the advantage tbh

My point is that the Union HQ should know the official position and be able to inform the member (if requested) before s/he even approaches HR. That way, the employee will be better informed when it comes to talking to HR.

Nigel Fairservice · 20-05-2019 2:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

theres things it is and things it isnt!

Former public servants in my place got some credit for their time spent in the public service but not the full amount of their service. One of them was written to a few years later stating they were given too much credit for their time spent in the public service and HR were looking to recover a nice bit of money from them.

Scienceless · 20-05-2019 2:57pm

Appreciate all the advice in here. Seems it’s far from straightforward. I am not represented by PSEU or CPSU.
I will speak to my own union before approaching any HR.
I’d agree they should be able to provide an answer, but I’ve never approached the union previously for any reason.

spitonmedickie · 20-05-2019 3:16pm

From my own experience it depends if the HR dept you're going to see merit in your case. I moved from civil service to public service, single pension scheme so that transferred over straightforwardly. I had gotten the public service gig in an open competition which also affects things and most importantly I had to show it was analogous grades. More here https://hr.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Starting-Pay-on-Recruitment-through-Open-Competition-to-the-Civil-Service.pdf here https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-07-12/120/ and here https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2017-03-28/284/. Union helped a little in my case by pointing me in the right direction but this isn't something that common from what I gather. There is another more recent circular covering this that I can't find now but a version of it is on page 6 of this https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/SIPTU-Local-Authority-Professional-Officer-Grades.pdf

20-05-2019 6:13pm

Nigel Fairservice wrote: »

Former public servants in my place got some credit for their time spent in the public service but not the full amount of their service. One of them was written to a few years later stating they were given to much credit for their time spent in the public service and HR were looking to recover a nice bit of money from them.

theres a set of tables and lists that dictate what your service is worth, that part of it is fairly settled and undisputed. depending on a few things it varies but a year for a year is the most common arrangement and wouldnt raise an eyebrow in most hrs.

its when that service is set against incremental progress for salary purposes that the slide rules and the daggers come out!

20-05-2019 6:14pm

Scienceless wrote: »

Appreciate all the advice in here. Seems it’s far from straightforward. I am not represented by PSEU or CPSU.
I will speak to my own union before approaching any HR.
I’d agree they should be able to provide an answer, but I’ve never approached the union previously for any reason.

id advise hr first. theyre rarely out to get you.

caviardreams · 20-05-2019 7:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

id advise hr first. theyre rarely out to get you.

Sorry, but HR are not on the employee's side as a rule - they are there to protect the employer.

angel eyes 2012 · 20-05-2019 11:46pm

caviardreams wrote: »

Sorry, but HR are not on the employee's side as a rule - they are there to protect the employer.

There is no harm in asking HR.

I went from Civil Service, to Public Sector (state body) back to CS. The final move was a side move and I was placed on same point on scale. I carried my service but was not eligible for promotion until I had 2 years served but it was a moot point as there were absolutely zero large-scale promotions at the time due to the recession.

21-05-2019 3:40pm

caviardreams wrote: »

Sorry, but HR are not on the employee's side as a rule - they are there to protect the employer.

im advising a specific course of action in a specific context and a specific instance. im acquainted with where hr classically sit in the management chain, and im also acquainted with the differences in the function in the public sector fundament.

advice garnered in advance from local hr in this case merely arms the OP with the intended course of action, it changes nothing and costs nothing.

caviardreams · 21-05-2019 6:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

im advising a specific course of action in a specific context and a specific instance. im acquainted with where hr classically sit in the management chain, and im also acquainted with the differences in the function in the public sector fundament.

advice garnered in advance from local hr in this case merely arms the OP with the intended course of action, it changes nothing and costs nothing.

I totally agree there is no harm asking HR in this instance it was more the "hr are rarely out to get you" point I was alluding to.

rambo2020 · 14-10-2021 1:47pm

Hi guys,

I have just been offered an EO position in the Civil Service via open competition. I have worked in a Local Authority for 13 years. I enquired with PAS if my service and incremental credit would transfer over to my new potential employer. PAS has advised that it is at the discretion of the Dept to decide if they will take into account my local authority service. Point 1 on the EO scale is significantly less than my current point. I contacted my own HR section who have said there is an agreement in place to recognise service and incremental credit.

Has anybody else had to deal with this recently?

@Scienceless how did you get on did they recogonise your service.

thanks

Vologda69 · 14-10-2021 5:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019274#Comment_118019274

There is no reason why starting salary cant be sorted before you sign a contract. I gave myself a month to get paperwork etc to local HR of my new Department. I only signed contract when I was certain of starting salary

C.O.Y.B.I.B · 14-10-2021 10:59pm

I did it 3 years ago and salary was matched . I had only recently been promoted in Pub Sec. and CS matched the new salary . There is a circular from Dper DPE144/004/2015 which explains it well.

I had to "mark time" for about 18 Months or so , but worked out well in the end .

AuroraP · 15-10-2021 4:29pm

I worked for 10 years in the public service prior to transferring to the civil service. I maintained all my pension entitlements, however given the different grading system in the public service body and the lack of equivalence to my civil service grade there was no continuity in salary and I ended up down on earnings for a short period. It didn't make much effective difference to me, though I aware of another person in that public service body who turned down a CS job for these reasons as they were set to lose c.€10k per year by the move.

Gusser09 · 31-05-2023 11:59pm

Folks apologies for dragging up an old thread.

Currently a HEO on point 5 of the scale. 19 years CS service.

If i were to take up a position within a LA I presume i have to resign my current post? Reason i ask its a 3 yr contract in the LA.

CramCycle · 27-02-2024 7:50pm

I too wish to dig up an old thread as I have an unsual question. I am taking a demotion to be closer to home. I work in the PS, but the role is in the CS. They have just offered me the position but are saying that because my current role in not analogous to the role I applied for, I have to start at the bottom of the scale. The roles are analogous in parts, in fact it was noted in the interview that lots of what I do makes me an ideal candidate. My previous role (before promotion) would have been analogous both in grade and salary. So if I hadn't taken a promotion I would get paid a lot more when transferring. Not sure if I am asking a question or just ranting, but is there anything I can do. I can't find any supporting circulars except a reference in 2014 to Action 15 of the Civil Service Renewal Plan but I can't find any circulars after this to state unequivocally I have a case or I don't. I realise I am weird getting a demotion.

Cheeseplant · 27-02-2024 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825125#Comment_121825125

Would you have the same union (if you are in one)? They might be able to advise. I know that analogous work experience/grades is usually counted for side moves (PS to CS) so I'd be asking why experience in previous role didn't qualify you for a few points.

CramCycle · 27-02-2024 9:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825310#Comment_121825310

Alas no, different unions in both places as far as I can tell. I say this, but I am not sure and will inquire tomorrow but the place I am looking to go has no mention of Union anywhere, but also are not mentioned on any unions sites, which was weird. My current place has an entire page on what unions they talk too, and which ones are appropriate for different job types.

billyhead · 27-02-2024 9:07pm

A demotion is not the same as a sideways over though.

Cheeseplant · 27-02-2024 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825452#Comment_121825452

The CS doesn't mention unions on their homepages but that doesn't mean they don't exist :)

I'm considering a similar move myself but a demotion into the LAs from CS. I had just assumed I'd go in at the max of the new scale (both admin posts, general service grades), but perhaps based on your experience, I wouldn't.

CramCycle · 28-02-2024 8:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825630#Comment_121825630

They are claiming that the role I am currently in is the only one that matters and it is not analogous in regards payscale. The irony being that there are parts of the role that are analogous (I really hate the word) and is undoubtedly why I was top of my panel. My previous role was completely analogous in regards responsibilty and payscale. I thought that even with the promotion, at worst they would look at my prior role (no break in service) and count that towards increments, leaving me off any LSI but not far from the actual top.

If I don't get good news today, I am going to ask about promotional prospects internally as not a huge number are advertised externally but maybe there are more internal competitions, this will be the final decider. I could handle the 25% paycut but 50% is a lot harder to stomach.

CramCycle · 29-02-2024 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825630#Comment_121825630

It could be a local thing but there are two civil service departments right beside each other here and they have said that the HR crowd (I have friends in both) have a policy of everyone in at step 1 and they use any hint of a difference as not being analogous, which they then back up with alot of equivalent PS roles having different titles. They know they will fill the roles as it is rural so they simply don't care (is my opinion).

This said, you are going from CS to LA (who I presume are PS, not CS) so they probably are not as stringent, it would seem that at least some PS bodies have a bit more cop on. I have been on interview panels where we have offered people a position at well above point 1 on the scale and not one query from HR. If you do go this route, I would say it at the any questions stage of the interview, as at least in our place, it is a longer discussion. If you aren't comfy with that we have had referrals back to the interview panel, which appears not to be a CS thing but I hope someone can correct me.

Augme · 29-02-2024 8:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825452#Comment_121825452

If it is a role in the CS the union will be Forsa.

CramCycle · 29-02-2024 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834297#Comment_121834297

Alas I am not Forsa but I might reach out anyway.

CZ 453 · 29-02-2024 9:22pm

Would anyone know if there is something in place for going the opposite direction? eg. say CS to the Guards? Thanks in advance

IrishPhoenix · 29-02-2024 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834459#Comment_121834459

If you mean Garda Civilians, they are currently civil service. but they will be leaving the civil service and becoming public service, probably in 2025. Terms and conditions of that are unknown.

Public Service to Civil Service

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