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Public Service to Civil Service

  • 19-05-2019 6:31pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭ Scienceless


    If you have been working in the public service for 16 years and accept a job offer in the civil service can you bring your service with you, i.e. your increments accrued and be placed on the corresponding point on the civil service salary scale?
    But, in order to be placed on a corresponding point on the civil service salary scale it would mean going on to the first long service increment.
    Thanks,
    Scienceless.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭ eimaj18


    If you have been working in the public service for 16 years and accept a job offer in the civil service can you bring your service with you, i.e. your increments accrued and be placed on the corresponding point on the civil service salary scale?
    But, in order to be placed on a corresponding point on the civil service salary scale it would mean going on to the first long service increment.
    Thanks,
    Scienceless.

    As far as I know your service doesn’t carry (which sucks!). I was recently going from civil to public and was told I’d take a 10k pay cut! I know Fords are working on regularising this but it hasn’t gone through.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭ Scienceless


    eimaj18 wrote: »
    As far as I know your service doesn’t carry (which sucks!). I was recently going from civil to public and was told I’d take a 10k pay cut! I know Fords are working on regularising this but it hasn’t gone through.

    Thanks... so I assume it goes both ways?
    Btw.. fords?


  • Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭ C.O.Y.B.I.B


    Thanks... so I assume it goes both ways?
    Btw.. fords?

    Service can definitely be carried from Public to Civil and you shouldn't have to start on 1st point . DPER have a circular in relation to this .


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,403 ✭✭✭ Mike Guide 69


    Does this also apply going from public service to local government as well (County Councils) ?,thanks...


  • Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭ C.O.Y.B.I.B


    Does this also apply going from public service to local government as well (County Councils) ?,thanks...

    Yes , I know first hand of someone transferring from a public sector body to a county council who went to a salary scale matching their current point on the scale . However that wasn't covered by the DPER agreement and was credit given at the discretion of the local authority . HSE also give similar credit for other public service employees.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭ Scienceless


    Service can definitely be carried from Public to Civil and you shouldn't have to start on 1st point . DPER have a circular in relation to this .

    Thanks, had a quick search on DPER website for that circular but got over 300 results, any idea what year that circular was issued or, even better a link?!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,403 ✭✭✭ Mike Guide 69


    Yes , I know first hand of someone transferring from a public sector body to a county council who went to a salary scale matching their current point on the scale . However that wasn't covered by the DPER agreement and was credit given at the discretion of the local authority . HSE also give similar credit for other public service employees.

    Thanks for clarifying ,the reason I was asking ,is that I work in semi state (public service) and have close to 15 years service CO, there’s an opportunity for me to work at a local county council, asked my local union rep , was there a case that I could transfer my service/incremental scale into the county council and was told “no,that if I resigned and started that position then it would not be possible to”

    Union rep did mention ,that it would be up to the local authority,if they wanted to match my senior incremental scale,but that would be highly unlikely..


  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭ eimaj18


    Service can definitely be carried from Public to Civil and you shouldn't have to start on 1st point . DPER have a circular in relation to this .

    Would be interested to see this too. I was told Civil to Public no, I would assume it would be similar vice versa. Hmmmm.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Gumbo


    Thanks for clarifying ,the reason I was asking ,is that I work in semi state (public service) and have close to 15 years service CO, there’s an opportunity for me to work at a local county council, asked my local union rep , was there a case that I could transfer my service/incremental scale into the county council and was told “no,that if I resigned and started that position then it would not be possible to”

    Union rep did mention ,that it would be up to the local authority,if they wanted to match my senior incremental scale,but that would be highly unlikely..

    Semi state.
    Can you elaborate?

    You cannot carry over entitlements from semi state to public sector in my experience (which a local authority is). Many assume LA’s are civil service, but they are public service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 973 ✭✭✭ November Golf


    Thanks, had a quick search on DPER website for that circular but got over 300 results, any idea what year that circular was issued or, even better a link?!

    Agreement on incremental credit for previous service for entry levels at Clerical Officer, Executive Officer, or equivalent grades represented by the Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) and Public Services Executive Union (PSEU)

    Circular 21/2004


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  • Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭ C.O.Y.B.I.B


    Agreement on incremental credit for previous service for entry levels at Clerical Officer, Executive Officer, or equivalent grades represented by the Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) and Public Services Executive Union (PSEU)

    Circular 21/2004

    This also exists for Higher Grades , definitely HEO at least. I don't have a soft copy of it , but I have a hard copy somewhere I can dig out .
    As for the local authority , I know one person who went from non-hse hospital to LA and went in near top of scale. I have also seen entrants to same hospital come in from Priv sector and be given credit for experience.


  • Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭ C.O.Y.B.I.B


    This also exists for Higher Grades , definitely HEO at least. I don't have a soft copy of it , but I have a hard copy somewhere I can dig out .
    As for the local authority , I know one person who went from non-hse hospital to LA and went in near top of scale. I have also seen entrants to same hospital come in from Priv sector and be given credit for experience.

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-02-02a.381


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,834 ✭✭✭✭ snoopsheep


    straight to the hr/payroll of the new employing body and get it in writing

    anyone else you ask is a waste of your time, its that much of a minefield, with so many variables.

    the only two that actually matter are the will of the local hr and the discretion they have in exercising it.

    best guess is that you might go over at current scale but mark time without another increment until the time had passed to get there as if you had started on pt 1 on day 1

    but seriously- theres only one place to get a firm answer (and seriously- in writing!)


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭ Scienceless


    snoopsheep wrote: »
    straight to the hr/payroll of the new employing body and get it in writing

    anyone else you ask is a waste of your time, its that much of a minefield, with so many variables.

    the only two that actually matter are the will of the local hr and the discretion they have in exercising it.

    best guess is that you might go over at current scale but mark time without another increment until the time had passed to get there as if you had started on pt 1 on day 1

    but seriously- theres only one place to get a firm answer (and seriously- in writing!)

    Thanks,

    I am particularly interested to find out, given the comparable point on the CS salary scale I would be moving to is the first long service increment, will my PS service count to allow this as it would for other points on the salary scale before the first LSI ?

    Or could they say the LSI is only given after time served in the actual job it applies to?

    I had thought there was an overall principle in these situations that you couldn’t be any ‘worse off’ after such a transfer.

    I will approach the relevant HR dept, haven’t spoken to any HR people in years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,834 ✭✭✭✭ snoopsheep


    if it is interpreted as an external move you certainly can end up worse off. and i doubt the principle would be future-proof either way, if you get me

    interested to hear the answer you get


  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭✭ Dr Sunshine


    Thanks,

    I am particularly interested to find out, given the comparable point on the CS salary scale I would be moving to is the first long service increment, will my PS service count to allow this as it would for other points on the salary scale before the first LSI ?

    Or could they say the LSI is only given after time served in the actual job it applies to?

    I had thought there was an overall principle in these situations that you couldn’t be any ‘worse off’ after such a transfer.

    I will approach the relevant HR dept, haven’t spoken to any HR people in years.

    If your grade is considered analogous you would transfer at Max of scale, no one can transfer on LSI

    Check out the following for details

    https://hr.per.gov.ie/starting-pay-on-recruitment/


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,403 ✭✭✭ Mike Guide 69


    If your grade is considered analogous you would transfer at Max of scale, no one can transfer on LSI

    Check out the following for details

    https://hr.per.gov.ie/starting-pay-on-recruitment/

    Just wondering would that also apply if you are going from semi state to local authority?

    Bearing in mind,I’m referring to ,if you ceased your current position and decided to take up a new position with the local authority


  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭✭ Dr Sunshine


    Mike,
    You'd need to check with HR in the local authority as civil service circulars and DPER guidelines don't apply .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ Nigel Fairservice


    As far as I know service is not treated like for like between civil and public service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,834 ✭✭✭✭ snoopsheep


    As far as I know service is not treated like for like between civil and public service.

    theres things it is and things it isnt!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 Squatter


    While it's great to see helpful advice and assistance being given by other Boards contributors, surely the question raised by the OP is one that his/her Union Head Office should immediately be able to answer? (I'm assuming that, like the vast majority of Public Servants, s/he's in a union).

    Because if a Union can't help a member in a situation like this - which must occur with reasonable frequency - then it's really not worth joining!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,834 ✭✭✭✭ snoopsheep


    Squatter wrote: »
    While it's great to see helpful advice and assistance being given by other Boards contributors, surely the question raised by the OP is one that his/her Union Head Office should immediately be able to answer? (I'm assuming that, like the vast majority of Public Servants, s/he's in a union).

    Because if a Union can't help a member in a situation like this - which must occur with reasonable frequency - then it's really not worth joining!


    you could certainly ask your union to ask the local hr

    but until the officer has asked themselves and received an answer they are unhappy with i dont see the advantage tbh


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,923 ✭✭✭ $hifty


    The short answer is...it depends. And it depends an awful lot on the local HR in the Department to which you are moving.

    Here's 3 examples I was heavily involved in:
    1. ME: 14 years in public and moved to civil (EO in both). Transferred all leave, pensionable service and increments over no problem. Only thing I lost was a number of days time off in lieu which I had accrued and the new HR wouldn't honour. Eventually got paid by the old job so happy days.
    2. Old work colleague who left after getting promoted from top of CO equivalent to EO. Started at point 5 or 6 on the EO scale, everything transferred across as well.
    3. Old work colleague who was in line for a promotion from CO equivalent to EO. New HR insisted that the PAS documentation stated that anybody who is not a serving civil servant was not entitled to any progression up the scale and had to start at the entry point. He fought tooth and nail but eventually had to accept a ~€4k pay cut* to get 'promoted'
    4. Old work colleague who was in the same competition as number 3 above, but way further down the OOM. Got panicked by the treatment of chap number 3 so applied for a CO open comp in the meantime, which he did well in and accepted. Moved across (at the equivalent grade) then came up on the EO panel 5 months later and got to start as EO on point 6 or something. It was a different Dept. so not sure if it would have applied in Dept. number 3.

    *I think he eventually negotiated that he'd stay on his current point on the scale but wouldn't receive any increments until x years had passed and he reached that point, but haven't confirmed it with the person in question, so can't be sure.

    I was the union rep for the 3 above cases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,923 ✭✭✭ $hifty


    Agreement on incremental credit for previous service for entry levels at Clerical Officer, Executive Officer, or equivalent grades represented by the Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) and Public Services Executive Union (PSEU)

    Circular 21/2004

    The HR unit in question at point 3 on my previous post countered that circular with an argument along the lines of:
    The circular clearly states "equivalent grades represented by Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) and Public Services Executive Union (PSEU)" and the employee in question is in fact NOT represented by either of these two Trade Unions, so the circular does not apply

    He was represented by IMPACT/Fórsa at the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 Squatter


    snoopsheep wrote: »
    you could certainly ask your union to ask the local hr

    but until the officer has asked themselves and received an answer they are unhappy with i dont see the advantage tbh

    My point is that the Union HQ should know the official position and be able to inform the member (if requested) before s/he even approaches HR. That way, the employee will be better informed when it comes to talking to HR.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ Nigel Fairservice


    snoopsheep wrote: »
    theres things it is and things it isnt!

    Former public servants in my place got some credit for their time spent in the public service but not the full amount of their service. One of them was written to a few years later stating they were given too much credit for their time spent in the public service and HR were looking to recover a nice bit of money from them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭ Scienceless


    Appreciate all the advice in here. Seems it’s far from straightforward. I am not represented by PSEU or CPSU.
    I will speak to my own union before approaching any HR.
    I’d agree they should be able to provide an answer, but I’ve never approached the union previously for any reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭ spitonmedickie


    From my own experience it depends if the HR dept you're going to see merit in your case. I moved from civil service to public service, single pension scheme so that transferred over straightforwardly. I had gotten the public service gig in an open competition which also affects things and most importantly I had to show it was analogous grades. More here https://hr.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Starting-Pay-on-Recruitment-through-Open-Competition-to-the-Civil-Service.pdf here https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-07-12/120/ and here https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2017-03-28/284/. Union helped a little in my case by pointing me in the right direction but this isn't something that common from what I gather. There is another more recent circular covering this that I can't find now but a version of it is on page 6 of this https://paycommission.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/SIPTU-Local-Authority-Professional-Officer-Grades.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,834 ✭✭✭✭ snoopsheep


    Former public servants in my place got some credit for their time spent in the public service but not the full amount of their service. One of them was written to a few years later stating they were given to much credit for their time spent in the public service and HR were looking to recover a nice bit of money from them.

    theres a set of tables and lists that dictate what your service is worth, that part of it is fairly settled and undisputed. depending on a few things it varies but a year for a year is the most common arrangement and wouldnt raise an eyebrow in most hrs.

    its when that service is set against incremental progress for salary purposes that the slide rules and the daggers come out!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,834 ✭✭✭✭ snoopsheep


    Appreciate all the advice in here. Seems it’s far from straightforward. I am not represented by PSEU or CPSU.
    I will speak to my own union before approaching any HR.
    I’d agree they should be able to provide an answer, but I’ve never approached the union previously for any reason.


    id advise hr first. theyre rarely out to get you.


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