"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

leggo · 06-05-2019 12:11PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

Given you're the one who threw a wobbler about logging on to see people didn't agree with your take on the episode, it's a bit much to accuse someone else of being arrogant.

Do you really need to spend every week attacking me after every episode? We can just disagree and live separate lives, there's no need for us to interact. You're not even speaking about anything in the post you quoted here.

lawlolawl · 06-05-2019 12:14PM

06-05-2019 12:16PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

Did you not see the post show bit with the one writer saying they simply forgot about the Iron Fleet?

They probably just assumed those heavily armed warships were in fact merchant boats delivering cheesewheels to Dragonstone.

Yeah they said Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet. Even though in the war council scene just beforehand, she was very much reminded about the Iron Fleet.

duffman13 · 06-05-2019 12:29PM

I've really enjoyed everything till this point, people have had issues with stuff, all stuff I somewhat agree but it wouldn't effect my viewing. The discussion last week was about strategy of war, plausibility of things etc but we were at a point where things needed to be advanced.

This week, I was sorely disappointed really.

I enjoyed the scene with Arya and Gendry, fitting of her character and her never being a lady.

Jaime and Brienne appeared natural and worked well IMO, him leaving for kings landing is to try stop her.

After that it I'm frustrated by

Dany failing to notice a fleet of iron island ships as she soars through the air, only realising it after Rhaegael gets hit 3 times. As a general rule of thumb, if an arrow hits you it's cause someone can see you therefore you can see them. The scene would have been as impactful if she'd seen them and attacked in her usual impulsiveness and lost a dragon.

Then placing her last remaining dragons in the sights of 15 of the things in open field with just about 60 unsullied between them.

Killing Missandei, was always going to happen but capturing just her and letting others like Tyrion, Varys and Greyworm swim to Dragonstone makes no sense, all three are valuable prisoners particularly Tyrion. Then what, they destroy the ships, kill a dragon and split back to KL?

The Godswood scene and no conversation following the reveal, my god like, it derseves a conversation.

Varys and then even Tyrion considering the possibility of treason, shoe horned in. The only indication Varys had doubts was him giving her a strange look at dinner and is no ready to commit treason.

Bronn, the whole scene was odd IMO, made no sense really, either kill them or just tell Tyrion he's to pay him double, everything else that happened was not needed.

2 episodes left, I'd pray things will tighten up massively in the remaining episodes

EagererBeaver · 06-05-2019 12:30PM

Perhaps ironically, but certainly similarly, like the show this thread has turned to complete and utter ****e.

Nobody gives a ****, lads.

Paddy Cow · 06-05-2019 12:52PM

@leggo Dany losing her dragon was badly done. Conveniently Jon had a conversation with Tormund explaining why he wouldn't be riding the dragon - it needed to recover strength from the battle. What a crock of sh!te. Drogon was stabbed multiple times yet he's magically better. It was simply a way to kill one of the dragons without losing Jon, to even up the odds with Cersei.

Dany not seeing the fleet is a huge issue. I'm sick and tired of her getting her dragons hurt because she is too stupid to fly high and scout ahead. She lost Viserion to the NK. Fair enough it can happen once but we saw twice in the battle last week she put Drogon in danger by being two low. Having Dany make the same mistake over and over is lazy writing and just makes her look stupid.

The scorpions basically rendering Drogon useless is also dumb. All Dany had to do was let them shoot at her and then BBQ them while they reloaded. But somehow they can reload in seconds. Not believable at all.

The story is progressing and I'll watch to the end but I am finding it harder to defend the show. I'm not picking holes for the sake of it and I'm willing to overlook most of the dumb things they do just to see where it ends but acting like people are just nit picking is ridiculous. The execution of the story is getting worse and worse and plenty of people can see that.

markodaly · 06-05-2019 12:53PM

Writers have shat the bed. Some scenes were ok, but overall a pale imitation of what transpired in other seasons.
Its all a bit Disney at this stage.

Mr. Incognito · 06-05-2019 12:55PM

Was a rage head last week.

Solid episode. I loved it.

Assetbacked · 06-05-2019 12:57PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

If only Danys could have died. Infuriatingly implausible manner for her to stay alive once her dragon was taken from her. She offers absolutely nothing to the whole thing and it really seems like people only like her because of how she looks.

Well this can be updated. Finally, the tide is turning against her and it is funny to see so much shock and hysteria as if she could just waltz into King's Landing with her dragons to seize the iron throne.

Jaime and Cersei have a story to resolve and Danys and the Starks also have something to resolve. This is how I see it being split. Danys nor the Starks will have to kill Cersei who will die but whoever emerges from the Stark/Danys conflict will, without having to kill Cersei, sit on the iron throne.

In terms of what happens then, we have Arya disappearing again into the wilderness so it would seem that potentially she will emerge to protect Jon from Danys and kill her. Jaime will kill Cersei and his unborn child to redeem himself from everything that has happened. Jaime and Tyrian are now on Bronn's hit list.

As for Bran, we don't know what he told Sansa and Arya, we just assume we know. I don't think it was just what we thought it was. That should've been a significant event, Arya and Sansa finding out that information as well as their reactions but we did not get to see it. Arya then wandered off with the hound. There is definitely more to that then we might think.

DeepBlue · 06-05-2019 12:58PM

After 8 seasons how has Tyrion not learned that he's so, so wrong about this? :eek: :pac:

Paddy Cow · 06-05-2019 12:59PM

duffman13 wrote: »

Varys and then even Tyrion considering the possibility of treason, shoe horned in. The only indication Varys had doubts was him giving her a strange look at dinner and is no ready to commit treason.

Varys turning on Dany is actually 100% what his character would do. He has always said he serves the realm and I expected last week that this would become an issue for him. Varys remembers the mad King. He knows what the Targaryen's are and how dangerous they can be.

touts · 06-05-2019 01:02PM

It was an ok episode. More character development and closing off story lines. However it is starting to suffer from the insane decision to just have 6 episodes. They now have to accelerate through the politics of the thing and hence we have Varys and others suddenly starting to plot treason. With just two episodes left I fear they are just going to continue to race through plot development and we'll have to read the books (if GRRM lives long enough to finish writing them) to get a proper understanding of the events and the thoughts of the characters.

Paddy Cow · 06-05-2019 01:04PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

In terms of what happens then, we have Arya disappearing again into the wilderness so it would seem that potentially she will emerge to protect Jon from Danys and kill her. Jaime will kill Danys and his unborn child to redeem himself from everything that has happened. Jaime and Tyrian are now on Bronn's hit list.

As for Bran, we don't know what he told Sansa and Arya, we just assume we know. I don't think it was just what we thought it was. That should've been a significant event, Arya and Sansa finding out that information as well as their reactions but we did not get to see it. Arya then wandered off with the hound. There is definitely more to that then we might think.

My read on it is that Arya is off to kill Cersei (still has that list to finish) and the Hound is after the Mountain.

The White Wolf · 06-05-2019 01:07PM

DeepBlue wrote: »

After 8 seasons how has Tyrion not learned that he's so, so wrong about this? :eek: :pac:

He for some reason thinks that her Children will always redeem her....even though she's never once done anything positive with that love. If anything it has just made her even more twisted.

I've no idea what they're trying to do with Tyrion anymore. It feels like their angle is that family guilt (over Tywin, Myrcella, even Sansa) has destroyed him. He's no longer capable of seeing things as they are.

lawlolawl · 06-05-2019 01:22PM

DeepBlue wrote: »

After 8 seasons how has Tyrion not learned that he's so, so wrong about this? :eek: :pac:

I burst out laughing at this.

She murdered a bunch of people by blowing up the Sept, locked Sandsnake mom away with her daughters dead body and gave the head nun that shamed her to Zombie Mountain to do "whatever" with her and she's willing to let the innocent people of KL get murdered by Dany to try to muddy the waters.

mewso · 06-05-2019 02:07PM

I have one question for people defending this show. Do you think it is still the same quality as it was in the earlier seasons? If you do fair enough but I am genuinely curious.

Nothing anyone can say will excuse Euron's ridiculous stealth fleet. Nothing. And who needed to see Sansa and Arya get the news about Jon? Well me for one. I want to see what they say to Jon. Do they say he needs to declare it? Do they say they can't keep that to themselves? Do they say that he is still a brother to them regardless? So many possible reactions that would tell us so much about where we are with these characters but nah who cares. We don't need to see any of this.

lawlolawl · 06-05-2019 02:25PM

Ned Stark kept Jons secret for 18-ish years, including from Jon himself because he was a trustworthy, honourable man.

Sansa couldn't keep it for 5 minutes despite allegedly being totes really smart.

letowski · 06-05-2019 02:25PM

It was a rushed episode, but I've just come to the conclusion that this is just TV, that they have a timeline and budget. Like GRRM has said he has 1,800 pages of manuscript written for just TWoW alone so the books should flesh out the character arcs more.

I think the episode is setting up Dany's third betrayal. The one for love. I think the Benioff and Weiss have done a reasonable job in making it hard to predict the impending traitor.

Paddy Cow · 06-05-2019 02:34PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

Ned Stark kept Jons secret for 18-ish years, including from Jon himself because he was a trustworthy, honourable man.

Sansa couldn't keep it for 5 minutes despite allegedly being totes really smart.

Telling Tyrion was smart. Jon was an idiot if he thought that would stay quiet. He's a good general and people would follow him into battle but he's not suited to sit on the throne. He has the same problem Ned had - he's too honourable and thinks other people are too. He simply does not have the cunning to play the game. There are only two people smart enough to rule who also truly care about the subjects - Tyrion and Sansa. Cersei and Dany are terrible rulers - both are power mad and willing to sacrifice the little people to get and keep that power. Sansa told Tyrion because she knows what type of person Dany is and wants to stop her.

leggo · 06-05-2019 04:31PM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

@leggo Dany losing her dragon was badly done. Conveniently Jon had a conversation with Tormund explaining why he wouldn't be riding the dragon - it needed to recover strength from the battle. What a crock of sh!te. Drogon was stabbed multiple times yet he's magically better. It was simply a way to kill one of the dragons without losing Jon, to even up the odds with Cersei.

Dany not seeing the fleet is a huge issue. I'm sick and tired of her getting her dragons hurt because she is too stupid to fly high and scout ahead. She lost Viserion to the NK. Fair enough it can happen once but we saw twice in the battle last week she put Drogon in danger by being two low. Having Dany make the same mistake over and over is lazy writing and just makes her look stupid.

Like I don’t disagree with much of your assessment, but I’d get mad at Dany rather than at the show itself. Ned and Robb were stupid at times too, I didn’t get mad at GRRM or Benioff & Weiss. I’ve no problem with the scorpions being established as an equaliser (they haven’t killed a dragon yet, if they did so in the final battle it’d come across as weak), no problem with Jon not being there given they established why they were travelling separately and it fit with the overall vision, and I’m totally fine with accepting the ambush. One criticism of it already showed that the lad giving out just didn’t understand how it happened. You have to work to criticise it (even you’re saying “Dany should’ve flown ahead and scouted”, which didn’t particularly occur to or bother me until you said it. And even then I’m like “The Queen probably shouldn’t scout on her own, that seems dumb”) and I’m not interested in working to criticise stuff I like, coming up with alternate plans for how the operation could’ve been successful then slating the writers for not doing the thing I imagined should’ve been done.

I mean at this stage it just seems like a determination to conclude the show is bad, criticising a character flaw as “lazy writing” is lazy criticism to me. Characters are supposed to be flawed, that’s what creates tension and conflict, it’s scriptwriting 101. Characters who aren’t are two-dimensional and boring. If you’d have come at it from a standpoint where it seemed like you were in any way interested in acknowledging the show’s positives too, I’d be more receptive. But you’re falling into the lazy “It lost its way when it went off the books” style of criticism (that started in S5, oddly when it was still following the books) where you’ve clearly made up your mind before the show begins and are looking to view everything through that lens.

Mokuba · 06-05-2019 04:42PM

leggo wrote: »

But you’re falling into the lazy “It lost its way when it went off the books” style of criticism (that started in S5, oddly when it was still following the books) where you’ve clearly made up your mind before the show begins and are looking to view everything through that lens.

Leggo, meet Leggo.

leggo wrote: »

The issue seems to be that people are desperate to find an issue tbh. What is the main thing the majority of people here are criticising? Plot armour, not enough people died, convenient timing for main characters to be saved etc.

And what has changed aside from GoT being more popular? People like to play the "It got bad when they ran out of source material argument"...but BoB and Hardhome weren't in the books and people loved them. It's just the band people liked 'before they were cool' tbh. Now it's the biggest show in the world, you've got the few weirdos who are like "Oh this thing that's the same as it was when I loved it is bad now because the important thing is that I have a different view to the majority."

06-05-2019 04:59PM

Not even going to get into plot holes or "it would have been better if ..." My gf and I are emotionally checked out.

Paddy Cow · 06-05-2019 05:03PM

leggo wrote: »

Like I don’t disagree with much of your assessment, but I’d get mad at Dany rather than at the show itself. Ned and Robb were stupid at times too, I didn’t get mad at GRRM or Benioff & Weiss. I’ve no problem with the scorpions being established as an equaliser (they haven’t killed a dragon yet, if they did so in the final battle it’d come across as weak), no problem with Jon not being there given they established why they were travelling separately and it fit with the overall vision, and I’m totally fine with accepting the ambush. One criticism of it already showed that the lad giving out just didn’t understand how it happened. You have to work to criticise it (even you’re saying “Dany should’ve flown ahead and scouted”, which didn’t particularly occur to or bother me until you said it. And even then I’m like “The Queen probably shouldn’t scout on her own, that seems dumb”) and I’m not interested in working to criticise stuff I like, coming up with alternate plans for how the operation could’ve been successful then slating the writers for not doing the thing I imagined should’ve been done.

I mean at this stage it just seems like a determination to conclude the show is bad, criticising a character flaw as “lazy writing” is lazy criticism to me. Characters are supposed to be flawed, that’s what creates tension and conflict, it’s scriptwriting 101. Characters who aren’t are two-dimensional and boring. If you’d have come at it from a standpoint where it seemed like you were in any way interested in acknowledging the show’s positives too, I’d be more receptive. But you’re falling into the lazy “It lost its way when it went off the books” style of criticism (that started in S5, oddly when it was still following the books) where you’ve clearly made up your mind before the show begins and are looking to view everything through that lens.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. I have been one of the shows biggest supporters and even up to last week was staunchly supporting the show and the direction they took it. It's you who has fallen into a lazy way of criticism, telling people they're wrong and only looking to find fault.

There was huge problems in this episode and Dany getting ambushed by Euron was one. In the after show discussion, one of the guys said that Dany forgot about the Iron fleet. What a stupid thing to come out and say. Someone on the open seas forgets all about their highly skilled enemy? They were taking the p!ss saying that so don't tell me the show is still fabulous and the writers above criticism. "She forgot about her biggest threat" :rolleyes: What a fcuking joke :rolleyes: But I'm sure you'll find a way to defend such nonsense.

Mokuba · 06-05-2019 05:04PM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. I have been one of the shows biggest supporters and even up to last week was staunchly supporting the show and the direction they took it. It's you who has fallen into a lazy way of criticism, telling people they're wrong and only looking to find fault.

There was huge problems in this episode and Dany getting ambushed by Euron was one. In the after show discussion, one of the guys said that Dany forgot about the Iron fleet. What a stupid thing to come out and say. Someone on the open seas forgets all about their highly skilled enemy? They were taking the p!ss saying that so don't tell me the show is still fabulous and the writers above criticism. "She forgot about her biggest threat" :rolleyes: What a fcuking joke :rolleyes: But I'm sure you'll find a way to defend such nonsense.

Stop just wanting it to be bad!

It's clear that certain people in this thread have made up their minds about the show being above all criticism and any criticism is seen as contrary and to be edgy.

Falthyron · 06-05-2019 05:14PM

If Benioff and Weiss really wanted to go for the unexpected then they should have done the absolute expected and fired every arrow and bolt at Dany's paltry force and Drogon.

It's what any ruthless leader would have done given that scenario.

Like the tactics used in last week's episodes, there are somethings being done in this show that make no sense at all.

lawlolawl · 06-05-2019 05:22PM

Falthyron wrote: »

If Benioff and Weiss really wanted to go for the unexpected then they should have done the absolute expected and fired every arrow and bolt at Dany's paltry force and Drogon.

It's what any ruthless leader would have done given that scenario.

Like the tactics used in last week's episodes, there are somethings being done in this show that make no sense at all.

Nah, man. Cersei would never do something like that, she's a purely honurable fighter.

I mean, it's not like she had 10 of the superweapons she used to kill another dragon pointing at Danys only remaining dragon as it sat motionless on the ground.

And she surely couldn't have just had a couple of hundred horsemen come out of the front gate of KL and mow down Dany and her 50-odd unsullied.

razorblunt · 06-05-2019 05:24PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

In terms of what happens then, we have Arya disappearing again into the wilderness so it would seem that potentially she will emerge to protect Jon from Danys and kill her. Jaime will kill Cersei and his unborn child to redeem himself from everything that has happened. Jaime and Tyrian are now on Bronn's hit list.

.

Bronn has hedged his bets, the only way he loses is if all 3 die.
One survives and he's getting one castle/.

Falthyron · 06-05-2019 05:25PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

Nah, man. Cersei would never do something like that, she's a purely honurable fighter.

I mean, it's not like she had 10 of the superweapons she used to kill another dragon pointing at Danys only remaining dragon as it sat motionless on the ground.

And she surely couldn't have just had a couple of hundred horsemen come out of the front gate of KL and mow down Dany and her 50-odd unsullied.

True. Sure, she has paid good money for Bronn to kill him. She would much rather ask one man with a crossbow to kill her little brother and pay him handsomely than ask one soldier beside her to do it for free. What was I thinking?!

Riddle101 · 06-05-2019 05:30PM

As a fan of Tyrion in the early series and in the books, it really annoys me what they've done to him. They've turned him from a clever, astute and politically savvy man into a fool. Tyrion almost fell into the same trap he did in the last season when he tried to reason with Cersei by appealing to her love for her kids while trying to spare the people of Kings Landing. Cersei does not care about the common people and never has. She's also murderous, manipulative and treacherous. Why would Tyrion think that he could reason with her? "You're not a monster"? She's probably the biggest monster in the whole series.

Movementarian · 06-05-2019 05:31PM

Didn't realise balista type siege weapons could have machine gun rates of fire?! I mean I know its a fantasy show but come on they could at least try to make it realistic, those things would need a serious reload time to be that poweful.

Cant help but feel this is all just to try and make Cersei and her tiny army a worse threat than literal death in the white walkers and zombies etc.

Really annoying episodes in general.

"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

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