"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

Nody

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s7ryf3925pivug

Ghost definitely shrank.

Captain Red Beard

Well if you had boats and I had dragons maybe I'd attack from behind.

s7ryf3925pivug

Captain Red Beard wrote: »

Well if you had boats and I had dragons maybe I'd attack from behind.

The ballistae are on turrets though

s7ryf3925pivug

I thought the dothraki were annihilated in the previous episode.

The White Wolf

So Dorne are back in the game eh....who is their new Prince?

Dial Hard

ARE YOU ALL FCUKING HAPPY NOW WITH YOUR "NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE DIED IN THE LAST EPISODE" WHINGEBAGGINESS MOTHERFCUKERS?????????????

Stop the world, I want to get off.

Riddle101

Interesting episode. I never really cared much for Missandei so I wasn't really broken up by her death, and her love story with Grey Worm was kind've boring, but I think most of us expected it was going to end up with one of them or even both of them dead by the end of this series.

I'm more interested in The Hound and Jaime. How exactly will the The Hound beat The Mountain? I guess we'll find out later but what weakness is The Mountain likely to have? I'm guessing if The Hound kills The Mountain it will be from fire. I wouldn't be surprised if The Hound somehow manages to light his sword on fire like Beric did and use it to kill The Mountain, a bit of poetic justice maybe.

As for Jaime, he'll probably kill Cersei similar to how he killed the Mad King, except instead of a sword in the back he'll probably strangle her in the throne room, and then Jon arrives to find Jaime sitting on the throne. Similar to how Ned found him.

RoryMac

I know this won't get much support but I preferred this episode to last week's, seeing the politics fall into place with Tyrion & Varys, Cersei putting the population of KL in place as a shield, Sansa telling Jon's secret to Tyrion etc.

It's building up nicely with Dany on the verge of cracking. The hound, Arya & Jamie on route to KL leaves lots of options in place.

Can't wait for the next 2 weeks

fitz

Dany is a petulant idiot, always has been.
I wanna see Cersei get her cummupence, but I really don't want Dany winning out in the end.

Daith

Ghost deserved better. No reason he couldn't chill at Winterfell for the rest of his life.

Magic arrow trajectory time but I guess we had to get rid of one somehow.

awec

I have to say that the change of pace these past two seasons is really jarring. Dany going from Winterfell to Kings Landing in literally a single scene is a bit much. It would be fine if this was how it had been for the 6 previous seasons, but given it wasn't it just looks wrong now.

ERG89

Why do so many characters now come across as naive or just plain stupid???
When the most captivating antagonist has never spoken a word that's a real issue.
Can't say much outside of the battle with the Night King that much of this season's plot has held my attention.
A lot of this season has been spent drinking around dimly lit fires or the cast just standing around very expensive sets or surroundings.

Bonzo Delaney

awec wrote: »

Good episode, but I think they spent too long on the love stories and Tormunds jokes again. The Tyrion and Varys scheming sets it up for some nice political drama in the final two episodes.

I have to say that the change of pace these past two seasons is really jarring. Dany going from Winterfell to Kings Landing in literally a single scene is a bit much. It would be fine if this was how it had been for the 6 previous seasons, but given it wasn't it just looks wrong now.

I wonder will Jamie take the similar short cut to kings landing

awec

Other gripes: Jaime Lannisters character arc is all over the place. Is he morphing into bad Jaime again?

How on earth did they capture Missande? Danys flying about on her dragon and she can't see the big fcuk off fleet of ships ahead of her?

Daith

awec wrote: »

Other gripes: Jaime Lannisters character arc is all over the place. Is he morphing into bad Jaime again?

How on earth did they capture Missande?

Why didn't they capture them all was my reaction.

razorblunt

Gilly gets a hug and Ghost gets ignored, FFS. I don't know why but I'm very angry over that.
Leave him with Sansa or something.
The "hounds" was a great line and POD the legend in the background heading off with two ladies.
The Bronn scene was like something out of Hercules.

Also the magic arrows that hit 3/3 then 0 for 15 less than 5 mins later.
Emilia Clarke was brilliant though, credit where its due.

I knew it would be a "catch your breath" episode but it was great seeing tactics in play again, Cersei schooling Dany and Varys and Tyrion's chat.

razorblunt

awec wrote: »

Other gripes: Jaime Lannisters character arc is all over the place. Is he morphing into bad Jaime again?

How on earth did they capture Missande? Danys flying about on her dragon and she can't see the big fcuk off fleet of ships ahead of her?

No, I don't think so. I think he knows he has a job to do and is off to do it.

awec

The Bronn scene with Tyrion and Jaime was one of the dumbest scenes of this whole series too. How does Bronn get to saunter into Winterfell, into the room where the hand of the queen is sitting with a big crossbow? And Bronn has always been a smart enough character, but now he threatens Tyrion and Jaime to get what he wants? Doesn't seem right.

awec

Ah the more I look back on this episode the more big plot holes and inconsistencies there are. It is frustrating at this stage.

We got endless scenes of boozing but we couldn't get the scene when Arya and Sansa find out Jon is a Targaryen? Seriously?

duffysfarm

awec wrote: »

Other gripes: Jaime Lannisters character arc is all over the place. Is he morphing into bad Jaime again?

I wonder when Jamie heard the fleet had been attacked does he now think the only way to beat Cersei is for him to head to kings land and kill her himself?

razorblunt

awec wrote: »

Ah the more I look back on this episode the more big plot holes and inconsistencies there are. It is frustrating at this stage.

We got endless scenes of boozing but we couldn't get the scene when Arya and Sansa find out Jon is a Targaryen? Seriously?

I was coming back to post that. Completely robbed of that.
It reminded me of not seeing Stannis lose his head too, just show the ****íng thing. We saw Greyworm and Missandei holding hands and Sam Tarly waddle around some more, cut that.


Also, Sansa has now become my favourite character.

The Hound Gone Wild

Pet the damn dog

awec

Cersei had Dany, Tyrion and Grey Worm with about 100 unsullied standing in front of her. A few seasons ago she'd have killed them all where they stood, but now she doesn't? Like that could have been that. It makes absolutely no sense. It also makes no sense that apparently half the unsullied survived last week, but whatever. We'll not even mention the fact that it sounded like she has Dothraki still around...

At the very least she should have shot Tyrion. She blames Tyrion for her kids dying, but inexplicably lets him live?

D+D can fcuk off with this nonsense. It's clear they picked their ending and decided to work backwards, and are happy to let absolute nonsense go to ensure they get the ending they want. Who cares about plot consistencies and character backgrounds, so long as you get your big shocking moments in episode 6.

I am seriously concerned that this show is going to be a spectacular anticlimax when it finishes. The story is being thrown out the window.

Daith

I wonder if anything will come of Euron hearing Tyrion mentioning the pregnancy and how he knows.

The Hound Gone Wild

Tyrion: You don't want it?
Bran: I don't want anything.

Varys: Maybe the best person is someone who doesn't want it....

Plz no.

Edit:

Twyin: What makes a good king?
Holiness... Jon, never breaks a vow. No
Justice... Dany, wants a just world. No
Strength... Cercei, power is power. No
Wisdom... Bran...

Plz no

razorblunt

Re-watching it with the Mrs here, if Cersei was committed to killing Missandei, why not line the arrows up at the stationary dragon too?
Or was he just out of range?
To be safe why not put him into the little valley behind him.

Use that CGI budget to let Jon pet the fcuking direwolf!

ERG89

razorblunt wrote:

Use that CGI budget to let Jon pet the fcuking direwolf!

All of it was spent on that scene to show Tyrion jumping into the sea which looked so bad

Bonzo Delaney

Daith wrote: »

I wonder if anything will come of Euron hearing Tyrion mentioning the pregnancy and how he knows.

This must have some bearing on the story, Eurons a crazy mad fuker but not a stupid one

razorblunt

17 mins in, behind Jon Snow ... a Starbucks cup.

Right in front of Emilia Clarke too, the eejit.

razorblunt

razorblunt wrote: »

17 mins in, behind Jon Snow ... a Starbucks cup.

Right in front of Emilia Clarke too, the eejit.

Oh my god. Is this photo legit?

razorblunt

It is, I rewound on Sky, its not even something that looks different to lighting, it's definitely a cup.
Imagine having to write her name on the side of that!

RollieFingers

Ah this show has gone to the dogs, I thought the Ed Sheeran appearance was bad.

RobbingBandit

Arya gonna die trying to kill Dany absolute certainty nowJon will stop her which is ironic as it's Robb who ended up the bodyguard.

thomond2006

I just checked it on NowTV. The cup is there alright.

leggo

FFS, I watch and enjoy the episode. Then I log onto boards. My slight issues with the episode was Jon just abandoning Ghost and some ham-fisted dialogue (like spelling out a Hero's Journey). That's not being discussed and, instead, well...

awec I swear I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just every opinion you have here happens to be wrong. It's like you're actively trying to find plotholes and reaching to the point you look like you just don't understand what's happening.

awec wrote: »

Other gripes: Jaime Lannisters character arc is all over the place. Is he morphing into bad Jaime again?

Clearly going to kill Cersei because he realised it had to be done. The previous scene that was in had Sansa talk about wanting to see her execution, we're supposed to surmise that those words led to the decision he made in the next scene. If anything, I was frustrated with this for the opposite reason because they went through the motions of making it seem like he was changing sides, when it'd still be intriguing enough to have him state his mission up front. But I guess they didn't put the "volanquor" prophesy in the show so it will still be a twist to people who aren't obsessed like me. How did you not pick up on that though?

How on earth did they capture Missande? Danys flying about on her dragon and she can't see the big fcuk off fleet of ships ahead of her?

It's REALLY easy to capture people, especially untrained warriors, flailing around in the sea. They'd know Missandei. She was at the Dragon Pit meeting. They know she's potentially valuable as a hostage. She wasn't on deck because Greyworm told her to leave it, that would've hampered her time to escape while those who were could make it to shore because they could jump (like Tyrion). This is not a reach AT ALL.

Also, you realise that before you see something, you don't see it right? The scorpions were designed to kill dragons at range (i.e. before the dragons can burn them), that is their one specific purpose. It's an ambush. Euron anticipated they'd be travelling by sea, so anticipated their route, then came at them from a route that they wouldn't anticipate. As far as Dany is concerned, she's deviating from the expected tactic of storming the city as a united force, we saw her be talked out of this. But Cersei would know she doesn't want to burn people alive, she's talked in private with Tyrion remember, so she could anticipate this. Again, this is not a reach.

awec wrote: »

The Bronn scene with Tyrion and Jaime was one of the dumbest scenes of this whole series too. How does Bronn get to saunter into Winterfell, into the room where the hand of the queen is sitting with a big crossbow? And Bronn has always been a smart enough character, but now he threatens Tyrion and Jaime to get what he wants? Doesn't seem right.

Genuinely confused what you see as the problem here. You've just decided to not accept this.

Bronn is a trained cut-throat who's skilled enough to be offered chests of gold up front and Riverrun. He's good at this. It's not a reach that he managed to get past the collective brain thrust that also let Arya into the castle last season ("You need better guards"), shortly after a battle that was preceded with a lot of outsiders coming in and out of the city, when a lot of the forces have been decimated. Bronn's skillset is up to that task. It's not a reach. Also, trusting Tyrion and Jaime's word has been a DISASTROUS tactic for Bronn, because they haven't given him what they promised yet (standard Lannister debt-paying strategy)! His frustration is earned, his tactic worked because he got offered something tangible at a specific time, and he's satisfied to deal with that knowing they know the consequences if they don't come through this time. None of this is an issue!

awec wrote: »

Ah the more I look back on this episode the more big plot holes and inconsistencies there are. It is frustrating at this stage.

We got endless scenes of boozing but we couldn't get the scene when Arya and Sansa find out Jon is a Targaryen? Seriously?

Why do people want to see conversations with information with people relaying information that we already know?! Did you need to see Sansa say "oh...okay..." or something? That is AWFUL writing. What mattered here is that Jon decided to defy Dany and tell them. Not having Bran say "Oh his dad is Rhaegar and his ma was Lyanna" isn't a plothole or inconsistency!

awec wrote: »

Cersei had Dany, Tyrion and Grey Worm with about 100 unsullied standing in front of her. A few seasons ago she'd have killed them all where they stood, but now she doesn't? Like that could have been that. It makes absolutely no sense. It also makes no sense that apparently half the unsullied survived last week, but whatever. We'll not even mention the fact that it sounded like she has Dothraki still around...

At the very least she should have shot Tyrion. She blames Tyrion for her kids dying, but inexplicably lets him live?

We saw Dothraki retreat after the initial retreat last week (remember they were running away??), it wasn't a secret that some survived. But they're totally diminished as a united force and a people. Did you want them to show every single person who retreated so you could do a head count like?! You're giving out for them not spoon-feeding you and leaving it to assume you're intelligent enough to get that seeing some Dothraki running away means "Not literally every person who was Dothraki died."

Both sides were suing for peace. Dany didn't kill Qyburn either, it's not the done thing to kill the envoy, Cersei is still operating under the pretence that she's a good queen who's protecting her people so the cold-blooded murder of an envoy (and her brother) would've risked that. Killing Tyrion would've also necessitated an immediate battle, which both wanted to avoid, hence them holding a treaty. Cersei doesn't want Dany to mount Drogon and start burning the city while she's standing on the wall, sure they have the scorpions but she'd rather not leave that to chance. She was also listening to him and considering his words, hence the tears in her eyes. If anything, killing Missandei was the flaw here, because that could've led to the same result. But it's more palatable that she kill a prisoner than an envoy because they were the terms she laid out if Dany didn't surrender.

How do you not understand ANY of this or have you just decided "Game of Thones = bad now" and, whatever they do, you're going to try spin it that way? I just don't think you like this show anymore man...

awec

leggo wrote: »

FFS, I watch and enjoy the episode. Then I log onto boards. My slight issues with the episode was Jon just abandoning Ghost and some ham-fisted dialogue (like spelling out a Hero's Journey). That's not being discussed and, instead, well...

awec I swear I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just every opinion you have here happens to be wrong. It's like you're actively trying to find plotholes and reaching to the point you look like you just don't understand what's happening.


Clearly going to kill Cersei because he realised it had to be done. The previous scene that was in had Sansa talk about wanting to see her execution, we're supposed to surmise that those words led to the decision he made in the next scene. If anything, I was frustrated with this for the opposite reason because they went through the motions of making it seem like he was changing sides, when it'd still be intriguing enough to have him state his mission up front. But I guess they didn't put the "volanquor" prophesy in the show so it will still be a twist to people who aren't obsessed like me. How did you not pick up on that though?



It's REALLY easy to capture people, especially untrained warriors, flailing around in the sea. They'd know Missandei. She was at the Dragon Pit meeting. They know she's potentially valuable as a hostage. She wasn't on deck because Greyworm told her to leave it, that would've hampered her time to escape while those who were could make it to shore because they could jump (like Tyrion). This is not a reach AT ALL.

It's easy to capture people? At no point during that entire scene did Euron's fleet come anywhere close to Dany's feleet.

Are you suggesting Missandei got off the boat, and rowed TOWARD Euron? Did Euron unleash his secret speedboat to go pick her up, and row away? I think that's a level of mental gymnastics I am unwilling to accept.

Also, you realise that before you see something, you don't see it right? The scorpions were designed to kill dragons at range (i.e. before the dragons can burn them), that is their one specific purpose. It's an ambush. Euron anticipated they'd be travelling by sea, so anticipated their route, then came at them from a route that they wouldn't anticipate. As far as Dany is concerned, she's deviating from the expected tactic of storming the city as a united force, we saw her be talked out of this. But Cersei would know she doesn't want to burn people alive, she's talked in private with Tyrion remember, so she could anticipate this. Again, this is not a reach.

You do realise that

1. Euron's fleet were supposedly hiding behind a big rock, but yet Euron manages to hit the dragon with his scorpion
2. The first three shots are direct hits, yet Dany flies directly toward them and they suddenly cannot hit a thing?
3. They reload those things super fast
4. A boat is the worst place to fire a weapon like that.

It's not a reach. Its so far past a reach it doesn't even make sense. Arya is not the best ninja in this show, she can hide herself, Euron is able to hide an entire fleet.

Dany's dragon is now useless. He's a glorified taxi. This episode has shown they are no threat. That was the result that the writers wanted, they just needed a way to demonstrate it.

The dragons aren't even the most fantastical bit about this whole story now. Those weapons are.

Genuinely confused what you see as the problem here. You've just decided to not accept this.

Bronn is a trained cut-throat who's skilled enough to be offered chests of gold up front and Riverrun. He's good at this. It's not a reach that he managed to get past the collective brain thrust that also let Arya into the castle last season ("You need better guards"), shortly after a battle that was preceded with a lot of outsiders coming in and out of the city, when a lot of the forces have been decimated. Bronn's skillset is up to that task. It's not a reach. Also, trusting Tyrion and Jaime's word has been a DISASTROUS tactic for Bronn, because they haven't given him what they promised yet (standard Lannister debt-paying strategy)! His frustration is earned, his tactic worked because he got offered something tangible at a specific time, and he's satisfied to deal with that knowing they know the consequences if they don't come through this time. None of this is an issue!

It is hard to understand how anyone whose watched any of this show, or read any of these books, could be happy with that Bronn scene.

Are you suggesting Bronn killed his way into Winterfell? Or has gone to the same ninja school as Arya and Euron now too?

Why do people want to see conversations with information with people relaying information that we already know?! Did you need to see Sansa say "oh...okay..." or something? That is AWFUL writing. What mattered here is that Jon decided to defy Dany and tell them. Not having Bran say "Oh his dad is Rhaegar and his ma was Lyanna" isn't a plothole or inconsistency!



We saw Dothraki retreat after the initial retreat last week (remember they were running away??), it wasn't a secret that some survived. But they're totally diminished as a united force and a people. Did you want them to show every single person who retreated so you could do a head count like?! You're giving out for them not spoon-feeding you and leaving it to assume you're intelligent enough to get that seeing some Dothraki running away means "Not literally every person who was Dothraki died."

Both sides were suing for peace. Dany didn't kill Qyburn either, it's not the done thing to kill the envoy, Cersei is still operating under the pretence that she's a good queen who's protecting her people so the cold-blooded murder of an envoy (and her brother) would've risked that. Killing Tyrion would've also necessitated an immediate battle, which both wanted to avoid, hence them holding a treaty. Cersei doesn't want Dany to mount Drogon and start burning the city while she's standing on the wall, sure they have the scorpions but she'd rather not leave that to chance. She was also listening to him and considering his words, hence the tears in her eyes. If anything, killing Missandei was the flaw here, because that could've led to the same result. But it's more palatable that she kill a prisoner than an envoy because they were the terms she laid out if Dany didn't surrender.

Again, it is hard to understand how anyone who has read the books or watched this show could accept this Cersei.

I mean, you're here trying to tell us Cersei is operating under the pretense that she's a good queen, and taking the palatable option, in the same episode where she literally said she brought people inside the Red Keep to use as human shields?

Why would Cersei not want Dany to mount Drogon? The previous scene showed us Drogon would be dead before leaving the ground, she had lots of her super scorpions on that wall.

How do you not understand ANY of this or have you just decided "Game of Thones = bad now" and, whatever they do, you're going to try spin it that way? I just don't think you like this show anymore man...

I do like the show, I am just disappointed that they've turned what was an intriguing show into something where you need to avoid thinking too hard about it or all the holes appear. It's lowest common denominator stuff. If you want to lap that up, fire away. Throwing our "you just don't understand" to anyone who wants to see some consistency in the story and military tactics that are even half-baked in reality is all a bit much though. Do yourself a favour, give it a rest.

RobbingBandit

Bronn wasn't told anything of Riverrun he conned Tyrion and Jamie. Qyburn gave him wagons of gold and the crossbow but no mention of lands and definitely not Riverrun.

leggo

We have different views on what lowest-common denominator stuff is. For me, lowest-common denominator would be literally spelling out everything like not every Dothraki died, repeating the same information we've heard many times every time a new character learns it and showing routine exercises like captures happening or trained cut-throats navigating a depleted security force. These are all things I can fill in the blanks myself for, I'd much rather they used the time to show dialogue or scenes that had an impact on the plot.

ricero

They have really **** the bed this season. I see more disssapointed fans than happy fans these days

awec

leggo wrote: »

We have different views on what lowest-common denominator stuff is. For me, lowest-common denominator would be literally spelling out everything like not every Dothraki died, repeating the same information we've heard many times every time a new character learns it and showing routine exercises like captures happening or trained cut-throats navigating a depleted security force. These are all things I can fill in the blanks myself for, I'd much rather they used the time to show dialogue or scenes that had an impact on the plot.

Like Arya and Sansa finding out that their brother is actually not their brother at all?

Right?

Oh no, wait. We need to show Tormund lust after Brienne a bit more instead, maybe say something reasonably funny.

razorblunt

razorblunt wrote: »

It is, I rewound on Sky, its not even something that looks different to lighting, it's definitely a cup.
Imagine having to write her name on the side of that!

At the beginning, during the credits "This show contains product placement"

leggo

ricero wrote: »

They have really **** the bed this season. I see more disssapointed fans than happy fans these days

Literally only see that on here, where it's become the 'cool' opinion. In person, the people I know who watch all love it. On Twitter, I see memes. On Reddit, I see episode discussion not everyone trying to be a reviewer. In episode recaps/reviews with professional reviewers, I see fair questions being asked but also an actual appreciation of what we're seeing because they're trying to give a fair appraisal and not prove a point they decided before the credits rolled.

This place, for me, has become like watching it with your loud, obnoxious uncle who's decided he wants to be different to everyone else and shouts what he perceives as plotholes (but really is just stuff he doesn't understand because he's too busy giving out) at the TV. Everyone else wants to be polite and try get whatever enjoyment they can while he's around so they carry on.

jebidiah

WHAT ABOUT ****ING GHOST JON.

Daith

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Bronn wasn't told anything of Riverrun he conned Tyrion and Jamie. Qyburn gave him wagons of gold and the crossbow but no mention of lands and definitely not Riverrun.

Ha fair. I kept thinking that "double" would be the Twins

The White Wolf

Daith wrote: »

I wonder if anything will come of Euron hearing Tyrion mentioning the pregnancy and how he knows.

As long as the narrative is spun that says otherwise I doubt he'll give a damn. Tyrion basically spelt it out for the fool and we got no reaction at all.

He surely knows now.

Fluorescence

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Oh my god. Is this photo legit?

14:50 is the timestamp on NowTV 😂 actually cannot stop laughing

leggo

awec wrote: »

Like Arya and Sansa finding out that their brother is actually not their brother at all?

Right?

Oh no, wait. We need to show Tormund lust after Brienne a bit more instead, maybe say something reasonably funny.

Yes, exactly. That's information we already know. Tormund having the craic is more entertaining that Sansa looking confused (which we did get anyway in her conversation with Tyrion, but that conversation advanced the plot). The realistic reaction of Sansa and Arya would be to need to process the information. It wouldn't be believable if they had an instant reaction and showing them having long pauses while they process it would be crap TV.

The only reactions we needed to the news were Jon and Dany's because their responses to it impact the plot. We got both of those.

awec

leggo wrote: »

Literally only see that on here, where it's become the 'cool' opinion. In person, the people I know who watch all love it. On Twitter, I see memes. On Reddit, I see episode discussion not everyone trying to be a reviewer. In episode recaps/reviews with professional reviewers, I see fair questions being asked but also an actual appreciation of what we're seeing because they're trying to give a fair appraisal and not prove a point they decided before the credits rolled.

This place, for me, has become like watching it with your loud, obnoxious uncle who's decided he wants to be different to everyone else and shouts what he perceives as plotholes (but really is just stuff he doesn't understand because he's too busy giving out) at the TV. Everyone else wants to be polite and try get whatever enjoyment they can while he's around so they carry on.

You should read the song of ice and fire reddit...

This is the first episode I have been openly critical of this season. The first two were alright, last week was alright. They had some issues, but overall it was alright, and I was giving it a chance.

This week though was pure brain melting rubbish in terms of plot.

awec

leggo wrote: »

Yes, exactly. That's information we already know. Tormund having the craic is more entertaining that Sansa looking confused (which we did get anyway in her conversation with Tyrion, but that conversation advanced the plot). The realistic reaction of Sansa and Arya would be to need to process the information. It wouldn't be believable if they had an instant reaction and showing them having long pauses while they process it would be crap TV.

You are trying to make excuses for why we weren't shown one of the biggest moments of the entire show.

Tormund having the craic is not that entertaining, it's been overdone at this stage.