Dublin - Building heights

prunudo · 05-05-2019 3:21pm

I like it, which probably means it will be objected to and won't happen!

prunudo · 06-05-2019 8:58am

marno21 wrote: »

Johnny Ronan has submitted outline plans for a 44 storey/155m building in the Docklands

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/battle-for-the-dublin-skyline-are-you-ready-for-johnny-ronans-world-class-hanging-gardens-38079925.html

And the nimbyism starts, did someone mention there were votes up for grabs?

'Johnny Ronan's hanging gardens more akin to Manhattan,' says mayor

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/johnny-ronans-hanging-gardens-more-akin-to-manhattan-says-mayor-38082132.html

Podge_irl · 06-05-2019 10:46am

Its not even nimbyism considering its not really anyone's back yard there...

That's actually quite a nice looking building. How can, according to that article, 84% of people be in favour of taller buildings in the docklands yet somehow politicians think its a vote-getter to shut it down. Of course, they are happily trotting the ludicrously false dichotomy that anything that isn't 100% social housing is somehow part of the problem. Depressing.

prunudo · 06-05-2019 11:09am

True, nimbyism is probably the wrong word. Objecting to it because its different and not what we're used to plus goes against the grain of current social housing good, capitalist housing bad agenda.

OEP · 06-05-2019 11:12am

I don't understand the thinking with politicians, councilors, planners etc. in the is country when it comes to tall buildings. The docklands area is wasteland essentially, yet they continue to refuse planning for interesting and modern looking structures. We need to build high in certain areas of the city, and if we do it, we may as well make the buildings stand out and look interesting. In recent years London has built some really interesting tall buildings that add some character to the city. Personally I'm not a fan of the shard but it still adds something to the skyline. Then you have the walkie talkie building which I think is really cool, the gherkin, the one with the three holes on top etc. Why can't we do something similar, but on a smaller scale, in the docklands.

Rant over

Wayne Gorsky · 06-05-2019 11:20am

OEP wrote: »

I don't understand the thinking with politicians, councilors, planners etc. in the is country when it comes to tall buildings. The docklands area is wasteland essentially, yet they continue to refuse planning for interesting and modern looking structures. We need to build high in certain areas of the city, and if we do it, we may as well make the buildings stand out and look interesting. In recent years London has built some really interesting tall buildings that add some character to the city. Personally I'm not a fan of the shard but it still adds something to the skyline. Then you have the walkie talkie building which I think is really cool, the gherkin, the one with the three holes on top etc. Why can't we do something similar, but on a smaller scale, in the docklands.

Rant over

Agree re the docklands, and also with “build high in certain areas of the city”…but really only in certain areas rather than plant tall buildings in between older and lower ones wherever there is some space, like happened with liberty hall or the old central bank, both really bad examples of how not to do a city…

cgcsb · 06-05-2019 8:49pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its not even nimbyism considering its not really anyone's back yard there...

That's actually quite a nice looking building. How can, according to that article, 84% of people be in favour of taller buildings in the docklands yet somehow politicians think its a vote-getter to shut it down. Of course, they are happily trotting the ludicrously false dichotomy that anything that isn't 100% social housing is somehow part of the problem. Depressing.

The same politicians are also ideologically opposed to social housing

Wayne Gorsky · 06-05-2019 10:46pm

And, just a thought beyond building heights per se…does Dublin currently really have that massive influx of companies etc. to justify the massive construction boom anyway? Do we have numbers on that? Is all that new office space really needed? Or is it just for some developers to make billions (again), and a bubble to blow up in the face of us all (again)…I have a bad feeling about it all somehow…

Peregrine · 06-05-2019 10:52pm

Wayne Gorsky wrote: »

And, just a thought beyond building heights per se…does Dublin currently really have that massive influx of companies etc. to justify the massive construction boom anyway? Do we have numbers on that? Is all that new office space really needed? Or is it just for some developers to make billions (again), and a bubble to blow up in the face of us all (again)…I have a bad feeling about it all somehow…

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0409/1041581-cbre-office-take-up-report/

Wayne Gorsky · 06-05-2019 10:57pm

Peregrine wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0409/1041581-cbre-office-take-up-report/

Well, let’s just hope this is sustainable and works out in the end…

G_R · 14-06-2019 7:21pm

Got emailed this file today as I gave a submission re the revision of the planning guidelines in the dock lands.

TL;DR version: massive majority of submissions (bar 2 or 3 local groups, out of c.90 submissions) supported increasing building height and density for a variety of reasons.

The recommendation is that they have revised the guidelines in some of the city blocks. Most of the revisions are from 6 to 8 storeys but there is a few additional spots now designated landmark buildings, applications for which will be given consideration regardless of height and judged on their merits with regard to the surroundings.

Overall positive - I dont think it goes far enough, but I'm hopeful that we will get a few nice landmark buildings out of it given the clear appetite from the public for height in that area of the city.

Pdf of the report is too big to attach but here is a link for anyone interested.

http://bit.ly/2WKGUUW

cgcsb · 16-06-2019 2:06pm

Whoever sanctioned building new 6 storeys in this area should be shot. What a waste of land

dublinman1990 · 16-06-2019 6:09pm

I'm really happy to hear about An Bord Pleanala's decision to approve Johnny Ronan's new tower block at Tara St. I heard the news when a report was done by Miriam O'Callaghan on RTÉ's Prime Time on RTÉ One some time last month. The report was about building high rise buildings in Dublin City. She had two people there with her for an interview across the quays across The Convention Centre talking about more of this topic. I thought it was pretty interesting to hear it. I do have a question though about this new building. Is this building going to tie up with the redevelopment of Tara St. DART Station in the future. I remember seeing proposed plans for this site on the CIE Group of Companies website nearly 10 years ago. Is this new building a revised plan of this original proposal.

Peregrine · 16-06-2019 6:37pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I'm really happy to hear about An Bord Pleanala's decision to approve Johnny Ronan's new tower block at Tara St. I heard the news when a report was done by Miriam O'Callaghan on RTÉ's Prime Time on RTÉ One some time last month. The report was about building high rise buildings in Dublin City. She had two people there with her for an interview across the quays across The Convention Centre talking about more of this topic. I thought it was pretty interesting to hear it. I do have a question though about this new building. Is this building going to tie up with the redevelopment of Tara St. DART Station in the future. I remember seeing proposed plans for this site on the CIE Group of Companies website nearly 10 years ago. Is this new building a revised plan of this original proposal.

It's a completely different proposal. The original proposal was a complete redevelopment of the station including building over the station. This proposal won't do that. Maybe a slightly better entrance area but that's about it.

However, MetroLink is tying up with the DART station on the site to the south.

cgcsb · 16-06-2019 9:08pm

Does anyone know of the tara st tower is actually going ahead or if there is any progress/info? I know there's planning but really that can just be to add value to flip the site.

Peregrine · 16-06-2019 9:18pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Does anyone know of the tara st tower is actually going ahead or if there is any progress/info? I know there's planning but really that can just be to add value to flip the site.

CIE owns the site and has an agreement with RGRE to develop it. RGRE can't just flip it.

Besides, Ronan has put way too much time and money into this not build it.

Thelonious Monk · 28-06-2019 1:07pm

https://www.thejournal.ie/glasnevin-apartment-rejected-4700463-Jun2019/

9 storeys

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR99Mu92rj30LSvcSDNnYIfwt8vebyV12-_jlcDr3VCO8ytlKGe

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR99Mu92rj30LSvcSDNnYIfwt8vebyV12-_jlcDr3VCO8ytlKGe

CatInABox · 28-06-2019 2:29pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/glasnevin-apartment-rejected-4700463-Jun2019/

9 storeys

That's actually brilliant, you can see that the councillor has two different stock answers, and she had to bring them out one after the other, showing everyone how utterly ridiculous her positions are.

When she's asked about any developments in her area:

"This is too large, will have traffic impacts, and is not in keeping with the area"

When she's asked about the housing crisis:

"Homes are desperately needed in Dublin"

The disconnect is so jarring for me.

Thelonious Monk · 28-06-2019 2:34pm

It's a very good example of why this will never be a well run city

CatInABox · 28-06-2019 2:43pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's a very good example of why this will never be a well run city

What's shocking to me is that this isn't the usual DCC blocking it, but ABP. It's only been a few months since the government made it clear that up was the way to go, and this is an absolutely ideal site for it. It's on a major bus route, that will be upgraded during the Core Corridors project, and it's next to a major interchange station to be built during the Metrolink/DART expansion projects.

There is literally no other site in the entire city that will be as favourable for public transport. It's a massive disgrace that this could get turned down.

cgcsb · 28-06-2019 2:44pm

The public comments on social media about the Glasnevin case are more/less 100% in favour of the development and roundly comdem the nimbys and politicians. That's a positive change at least.

Thelonious Monk · 28-06-2019 2:59pm

They're putting 4 and 5 bedroom houses in there ffs. They should no longer be allowed within a certain radius of the city.

28-06-2019 3:02pm

As a single person in their late 20s with a transferrable skillset, why am I still here?

Thelonious Monk · 28-06-2019 3:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As a single person in their late 20s with a transferrable skillset, why am I still here?

Because you're an idiot!

28-06-2019 4:25pm

That makes sense.

Idbatterim · 28-06-2019 4:33pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

They're putting 4 and 5 bedroom houses in there ffs. They should no longer be allowed within a certain radius of the city.

I agree, I dont think it should be about what is simply most profitable for developers any more! Everyone was happy up to that point, build low density housing, suits the developers and planners down to the ground!

Here is a scheme in rathgar that had pp for 22 houses and now has pp for 107 apartments instead, a near five fold increase!

I agree that Id stop house building in almost all circumstances near the city centre. Unless the site is so small, that apartment block wouldnt be suitable etc...

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/cairn-gets-go-ahead-for-107-rathgar-apartments-instead-of-22-houses-1.3840469

bk · 29-06-2019 11:21pm

I live in an apartment building with over 100 apartments, that originally had planning permission for 20ish houses!

Absolute madness that anywhere within the M50 still gets planning permission for houses.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree, I dont think it should be about what is simply most profitable for developers any more! Everyone was happy up to that point, build low density housing, suits the developers and planners down to the ground!

In fairness to developers, I think even they have realised that the market for 4/5 bedroom luxury homes is pretty much tapped out. There are only so many people who can afford homes close to a million. Specially with the tight mortgage lending rules.

I believe they are having difficulty shifting such homes, which is why they are now turning attention back to apartments again.

marno21 · 19-07-2019 12:54pm

10 block monstrosity at Grand Canal Dock appealed to ABP

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/bartras-boston-sidings-plan-stalled-after-appeal-over-light-38325826.html

cgcsb · 19-07-2019 1:04pm

Seems irresponsible Irish Rail to want that land developed, what with a crippling under capacity in Public transport.

prunudo · 19-07-2019 1:25pm

Not the worst looking building to be fair.

CatInABox · 19-07-2019 3:24pm

marno21 wrote: »

10 block monstrosity at Grand Canal Dock appealed to ABP

https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/bartras-boston-sidings-plan-stalled-after-appeal-over-light-38325826.html

I really think that the Government should amend the planning laws so that inside the canals is a city development zone, and therefore people can't appeal based on things like light, etc.

There's an appeal against a hotel on Parnell St as well, from a local resident:

Given the residential nature of this area, any development has to be consistent with and sympathetic to that aspect of this area. Unfortunately, the proposed development is neither.

Parnell Street. Adjoining O'Connell Street. Residential. Jesus wept.

Wayne Gorsky · 19-07-2019 4:12pm

The thing is not height limits per se, but height limits based on existing (often historic) buildings in an area, respecting eaves heights and all…every responsibly managed European city has some rules and regulations in place to prevent high-rise where it should not be…building tall is cool in designated zones…

cgcsb · 23-07-2019 11:05am

I've seen some site activity on tara house, some scaffolding going up but there's not been any commencement notice afaik.

Hopefully the tower will go ahead. If Metro does move to construction 18 months from now, it'll be interesting to see basically the whole of Tara st being a building site.

Cookiemunster · 24-07-2019 3:07pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I've seen some site activity on tara house, some scaffolding going up but there's not been any commencement notice afaik.

Hopefully the tower will go ahead. If Metro does move to construction 18 months from now, it'll be interesting to see basically the whole of Tara st being a building site.

Some site activity? Tara House is almost completely demolished.

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1805325&page=94

ncounties · 06-08-2019 7:54pm

Irish Times - "Johnny Ronan’s bid to add floors at Dublin docklands tower shot down yet again"

"Commenting further on their decision, the city’s planners said the proposed addition of the two floors at Spencer Place would “ be unduly dominant and visually incongruous when viewed in the context of the existing quayscape on North Wall Quay, a conservation area, and the surrounding built environment.

The council added that the proposal would “ adversely impact on the setting of the former London and Northwestern Hotel, a protected structure, and other buildings of historic interest in the vicinity” of the Spencer Place campus, and “would present an unduly monolithic appearance when viewed from the surrounding streets”.”

Conservation area?! Are they actually having a laugh?! This is what they consider to be a conservation area, and the existing developments don't have "an unduly monolithic appearance when viewed from the surrounding streets"?!

marno21 · 24-10-2019 12:21am

Green Party complaining about NINE storey apartment block because of the "potential for fire issues".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/plans-for-nine-storey-social-housing-scheme-greedy-1.4058289?mode=amp

Comical stuff.

24-10-2019 11:12am

marno21 wrote: »

Green Party complaining about NINE storey apartment block because of the "potential for fire issues".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/plans-for-nine-storey-social-housing-scheme-greedy-1.4058289?mode=amp

Comical stuff.

That party is a parody of themselves at this point.

Idbatterim · 24-10-2019 11:23am

A site was purchased in Clongriffin recently, short walk to the dart station. Massive site. Has pp for a very low density scheme and huge amounts of land will remain grazing land for cattle , within walking distance to the dart station!

It’s a total banana republic!

Idbatterim · 24-10-2019 11:24am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That party is a parody of themselves at this point.

Of course the Irish version of the greens , had to be a nimby first , green agenda second party !

yer man! · 24-10-2019 11:38am

I fail to see why politicians see Ireland as so unique when it come to building development. We can't build high rise because it would destroy the landscape or the maintenance costs are too high or the fire risk is too great. For gods sake even Belfast is miles ahead in terms of development, a city on the same island!

24-10-2019 11:49am

Idbatterim wrote: »

A site was purchased in Clongriffin recently, short walk to the day station. Massive site. Has pp for a very low density scheme and huge amounts of land will remain grazing land for cattle , within walking distance to the dart station!

It’s a total banana republic!

I live next to the new Cherrywood development. Before building started you could see cows grazing while standing on the Luas platform. Theres still a lot of fields right next to the Luas tracks between there and Carrickmines. The next stop down has empty fields on both sides of the tracks. Its far enough away from Georgian Dublin that any height of building will not spoil the skyline for anyone living on Leinster Road. Build there, build up.

You could house significant amounts of people in a relatively small area next to a regular, mostly reliable, transport system. But no.

cgcsb · 24-10-2019 12:16pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Of course the Irish version of the greens , had to be a nimby first , green agenda second party !

They're an anti green party. They oppose gas exploration in Irish waters. Ya know gas the only technology we have presently capable of balancing a renewable lead electricity grid. They oppose dense housing I.e. the best way to minimise the human footprint on the plannet and reduce the need to travel.

ncounties · 24-10-2019 4:01pm

Sure the same party would be lambasting the government for the housing and homelessness crisis - like what do they want? I actually think the development looks smart (though no doubt it will be destroyed by a small minority that will ultimately live there).

What really made me laugh out loud though was:

“[Councillor John Lyons said the scheme was] a monolithic monstrosity that will totally destroy the area”

How exactly will this high quality development affect the architectual gems that are Bargaintown; Mattress Mick's; The Cadburys Factory; Odean, Power City and Leisureplex Coolock; and the Dulux site with it's neighbour, a derelict factory, directly to it's south?

ksceniaonegina · 24-10-2019 4:04pm

It's called urbanisation.

Idbatterim · 25-10-2019 10:58pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I live next to the new Cherrywood development. Before building started you could see cows grazing while standing on the Luas platform. Theres still a lot of fields right next to the Luas tracks between there and Carrickmines. The next stop down has empty fields on both sides of the tracks. Its far enough away from Georgian Dublin that any height of building will not spoil the skyline for anyone living on Leinster Road. Build there, build up.

You could house significant amounts of people in a relatively small area next to a regular, mostly reliable, transport system. But no.

Your point is spot on. They have allocated ed colossal amounts of green space for cherrywood. And within a stones throw of the luas , endless five floor residential buildings, it’s beyomd a joke!

Dats me · 25-10-2019 11:56pm

But Cherrywood is like 10km from the city centre, is 5 stories not reasonable? If we had five stories all the way from the city centre to Cherrywood we'd double Ireland's population i'd say

26-10-2019 12:20am

Dats me wrote: »

But Cherrywood is like 10km from the city centre, is 5 stories not reasonable? If we had five stories all the way from the city centre to Cherrywood we'd double Ireland's population i'd say

The estate I live in has about 20 'tower' blocks of 5 storeys each. I'm not saying 5 stories is too much I'm saying it's too little. If they were ten stories each, as you say, it's 10km from the city centre, it wouldn't affect anyones view of the skyline. It would house twice as many people. It has underground carparking, even a leisure centre with a swimming pool. No-one could really notice if it was twice the size. There's not even other residents to complain about tall towers and nimby complaints. Not unless the cows get a petition together.

markpb · 26-10-2019 10:30am

Dats me wrote: »

But Cherrywood is like 10km from the city centre, is 5 stories not reasonable? If we had five stories all the way from the city centre to Cherrywood we'd double Ireland's population i'd say

How do you see all the semi-d estates between Cherrywood and the city centre turning into 5 story blocks?

prunudo · 26-10-2019 12:16pm

Crossing over threads here but Cherrywood and its scope for high rise is the very reason that the greenline Luas should have and still should be upgraded to metro. We seem to be building new buildings back to front in Dublin, all the higher density areas away from the city centre and its employment with no real future plan on how these residents will commute back into the city.

bk · 26-10-2019 2:15pm

prunudo wrote: »

Crossing over threads here but Cherrywood and its scope for high rise is the very reason that the greenline Luas should have and still should be upgraded to metro. We seem to be building new buildings back to front in Dublin, all the higher density areas away from the city centre and its employment with no real future plan on how these residents will commute back into the city.

It is certainly common in similar sized European cities to have commuter towns, which consist of 10 storey buildings with shops, etc. on the ground floor, clustered around a high quality metro station from where the residents commute into the city.

Cherrywood can be a good example of this development model. But as you say the missing link is "high quality" and "metro". The Luas green line needs to be upgraded for this type of development.

Dublin - Building heights

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