"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

emo72 · 30-04-2019 02:48PM

Lads, I'm getting this sinking feeling I've been here before. Lost.

"Are they dead?" No they're alive.

"Is it purgatory?" No it's real.

"Wow then what an exciting story I can't wait for the big reveal"

Turns out everyone was dead. It's like the writers painted themselves into a corner, we wus robbed. But anyway I'm not that fickle, I'm enjoying the ride. Still feel like the NK was taken down far too easily. Still I was delighted when Arya knifed the bastid. "Av it ye blue eyed c*unt ya!" I enjoyed it more than I thought I should have.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 30-04-2019 02:51PM

ogsjw wrote: »

??? I genuinely do not see how this could be said with a straight face. There are huge chunks of seasons given over to beyond the wall...

GoT is also massively enhanced by the bog-standard medieval culture and people who flounder and stumble in the dark, responding to the re-introduction of magical elements changing their world, that they have very little defense against.

They go beyond the wall to fight wildlings to begin with and it’s a long time before the army of the dead are important to the plot.

Yes, it’s nice to have that threat that we know about but the characters in the most part are unaware.

dominatinMC · 30-04-2019 02:54PM

emo72 wrote: »

Lads, I'm getting this sinking feeling I've been here before. Lost.

"Are they dead?" No they're alive.

"Is it purgatory?" No it's real.

"Wow then what an exciting story I can't wait for the big reveal"

Turns out everyone was dead. It's like the writers painted themselves into a corner, we wus robbed. But anyway I'm not that fickle, I'm enjoying the ride. Still feel like the NK was taken down far too easily. Still I was delighted when Arya knifed the bastid. "Av it ye blue eyed c*unt ya!" I enjoyed it more than I thought I should have.

Were they really dead all along??:eek: I can't remember exactly how it panned out, I thought it was just in the "flash-sideways" segments of the final season where they were all in purgatory? Everything that happened prior to that actually did happen. Anyway, apologies I don't want to derail this thread!

Infernal Racket · 30-04-2019 02:55PM

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Reported.

Hahahaha

ThunbergsAreGo · 30-04-2019 02:57PM

Why does it matter who sits on the Iron Throne at the end of this?

As we have seen throughout the series it can change loads and rebellions can happen.

I think peoples idea of the NK ruining Kings Landing and then fighting the un-killable band of brothers who save the realm, thus earning the adulation of the realm would work better.

Why will anyone that is currently following Cersei accept a new King/Queen?

alchemist33 · 30-04-2019 02:57PM

dominatinMC wrote: »

Were they really dead all along??:eek: I can't remember exactly how it panned out, I thought it was just in the "flash-sideways" segments of the final season where they were all in purgatory? Everything that happened prior to that actually did happen. Anyway, apologies I don't want to derail this thread!

I'm afraid it's true. They were dead.

(I havent read the last 30 pages but assume this is about Lost)

nix · 30-04-2019 02:59PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That said since the tv went ahead of the books the politics has gotten more boring.

Exactly, you think its gonna get any better in the last 3 episodes from what we've seen?

If you ask me, I think they tackled it in the wrong order. They should have resolved the throne issue first and then focused all efforts on the undead threat and end it from there..

They would have had plenty of time to take kings landing and regroup before the undead could realistically march to kings landing :pac:

yourdeadwright · 30-04-2019 02:59PM

Irish94 wrote: »

Can anyone answer this? Is it the case he could raise anyone from the dead or do you have to be in a 100 metre radius or what.

I believe he can raise the dead , they don't have to have been killed by walker or Wight's ,
That's why the free folks where burning bodies and the knights watch where burning the bodies of the dead ,

Not sure about the meters Radius, it may depend on the Wi-Fi strength of the area

Bacchus · 30-04-2019 03:02PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Jon is a disaster! he has made several poor choices in battles that should have left him dead and yet he survives, to brood some more. He makes these mistakes and never really learns from them it's frustrating that we're in season 8 and he's still doing his dopey honour bit. I fail to see why people follow him he clearly doesn't want to be a leader and he makes bad choices as one, I don't know if it's the character or the actor but he's hardly an inspiring leader or the hero that people seem to want him to be

They did touch on this in the battle. There was a moment where he was chasing down the NK where Sam was calling out for help. Old Jon would have tried to save his friend AND stop the NK. Here, he turned his back on Sam to go after the NK.

Agreed, though he's not a very inspiring leader. He's choices though are at least consistent. He just wants to stop the NK and the dead. It'll be interesting now that is done, what kind of leader he'll be. Will he join the game as the legitimate heir?

30-04-2019 03:04PM

Gamer Bhoy 89 wrote: »

The show is called Game of Thrones, the forefront of that show has always been the Iron Throne. The wrong person is in it, and has been for 8 seasons. There has never been a rightful monarch to that throne for far too long and to set it aside in favour of the White Walkers would undermine its importance.

I saw the white walkers as this looming threat that would get in the way of that goal. They needed to be dealt with and they were dealt with, yet people aren't happy about that.

That battle had high stakes - just because no "major character" died does not mean it didn't.

And that's why it's quite unsatisfying for me at least, the NK was the greatest existential threat to the entire world for the last ~10000 years, the Iron Throne is a 300 year squabble over a fraction of the world between people who will be dead in a few years anyway. If they wanted the NK story to just be a sideplot they shouldn't have made it so consequenctial.

Mr. Incognito · 30-04-2019 03:06PM

This seems to be the defence of most people to any sort of rational criticism.

Criticism: It's too dark.
Answer: Its in the Winter in the Snow.

Criticism: Well that's a bit silly. I dont watch Shark week underwater. Its telivision. Its supposed to be entertainment. We are supposed to be able to SEE it.
Answer: It's Skys fault.

Criticism: Jesus all the major characters managed to survive.
Answer: That's their character arc. They are bad ass.

Criticism: You would think that all those major military minds and Tyron would come up with a competent strategy.
Answer: uuuu It's not Military History channel.

Criticism: How did Jorah and John teleport over or through the 100,000 dead.
Answer: Look. Its a show with Dragons. Deal with it.

Criticism: Jesus, they took really intelligent books and kinda made a cartoon out of it. It's gone downhill.
Answer: FILLER EPISODE. FILLER EPISODE. Blood and **** blowing up. Whooooooo

Criticism: You are not too bright are you.
Answer; YOU are not to bright. Arya kicks ass. KICK-ASS YEAH.

Loafing Oaf · 30-04-2019 03:06PM

riffmongous wrote: »

And that's why it's quite unsatisfying for me at least, the NK was the greatest existential threat to the entire world for the last ~10000 years, the Iron Throne is a 300 year squabble over a fraction of the world between people who will be dead in a few years anyway. If they wanted the NK story to just be a sideplot they shouldn't have made it so consequenctial.

Maybe this is where the plans of GRRM and those of Beniof, Weiss et al diverge?

30-04-2019 03:08PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Maybe this is where the plans of GRRM and those of Beniof, Weiss et al diverge?

I really hope so and it would give him a lot of space to write very different stories ( not that he ever will)

ogsjw · 30-04-2019 03:30PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

They go beyond the wall to fight wildlings to begin with and it’s a long time before the army of the dead are important to the plot.

The wildlings are coming south because of the army of the dead.

The White Walkers and their mysterious symbol are literally the central focus of the entire first scene of this show. :pac: If that doesn't make them a key cornerstone to the plot...

Tabnabs · 30-04-2019 03:40PM

If you want to know how to kill a the leader of the undead with style and a suitable twist, Tolkien is you man (and it takes a women to do it, it seems).

Éowyn: Be gone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!

Nazgûl: Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.
Éowyn: Do what you will, but I will hinder it, if I may.
Nazgûl: Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!
Éowyn: But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Be gone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.

PressRun · 30-04-2019 03:42PM

Strange one. Seems very divisive.
Personally, didn't love the beginning. There was no logic to the Dothraki charge and it was hard to see what was going on at times. I actually didn't realise Brienne was still alive until the end. I was certain I'd seen her die.

However, I really liked the ending of the episode. I thought the final scene with Bran, the Night King and Arya was beautifully shot. And the scenes with the dragons were beautiful also. Some of the artistry and cinematography on show was spectacular.

I agree somewhat with some posters re plot armour - if they had no intention of letting Jamie, Brienne, Pod, etc. die, then they shouldn't have placed them in situations where it seems unbelievable that they survived. Especially when the dothraki were dust within seconds. It also renders some of the scenes in the previous episode a bit irrelevant? That all said, while I understand the battle with the Night King is years in the making, so is the conflict with Cersei. The Starks, Jamie, Tyrion, the Hound, all have long-standing unfinished business with the crown and that side of the show is always what's been more fascinating to me. The Night King is a bit of a generic Bad Guy, but the issues with the Lannisters are personal and political. Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey have ruined the lives of some of the key characters, so I think I would have been disappointed to see the likes of Jamie or Arya become fodder for the Night King before they've had a chance to face the person who has made a much more concerted effort to end their lives over the years.

Overall, it seems like fan theories have gotten slightly ahead of the show writers, which seems to be frustrating people. People seem to be expecting things that the writers have no intention of exploring and sometimes the fan theories are more fleshed out and detailed than what actually happens in the show. I expect the show will be fairly straight forward from here, tbh. I don't see the early tension between Jon and Daenerys over Jon's heritage coming to much. I think they will team up from here on out.

yourdeadwright · 30-04-2019 03:55PM

I expect the show will be fairly straight forward from here, tbh. I don't see the early tension between Jon and Daenerys over Jon's heritage coming to much. I think they will team up from here on out.[/QUOTE]

This bit depends ,

Iv a feeling they mite play Danny as power mad, make her seem happy they have won no matter the cost , If she shows no feelings over the loss of thousands men and the Dothraki Jon may start to doubt her agenda ,

Remember Jon has show no interest in the Throne, He may not want to send his people into another war so soon ,

Next episode will set that all up one way or another,

Plopsu · 30-04-2019 03:56PM

Tabnabs wrote: »

If you want to know how to kill a the leader of the undead with style and a suitable twist, Tolkien is you man (and it takes a women to do it, it seems).

Merry dislikes this post. :pac:

30-04-2019 04:00PM

Re the number of deaths.. one point I would have is that quite a few characters are essentially superflous to the plot at this point, Sam, Ginny, Varys, Grey Worm and his missus, Pod, Tormund, even Brienne and Davos.. we saw in the last episodes the effort they have to put in to give them all some bit of screentime so it would have been a meaningful time to thin the ranks a bit and avoid repeats of all the side characters sitting around together for the sake of giving them something to do

30-04-2019 04:08PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

There can't be planning and intelligence there cos he can't even speak!! if he ended up winning and for 8 seasons we never say any of his interior life, any thoughts, musings, plans anything it would literally be the worst possible ending.

The writers have been showing us all along how unimportant he is, by not showing us anything about him. We can't see nothing of him for 8 seasons for him to win the whole lot in one battle. He's not a person, not in anyway that counts like there's no stakes for him

I'm not saying he needs to win, nothing like that. In fact I totally agree that would be a disastrous ending which I've seen happen before in another franchise. What I'm saying is that there clearly is more to him than the show showed us, which is more bad writing than him not being important. He simply must have some level of intelligence or ability to see the future/past other like I said, otherwise it's just a mad coincidence that he is active now. He didn't need to speak or anything but they have Bran right there doing nothing, they could easily have used him to show us more flashbacks, or in fact just show us something like they did previously before Bran got the Sight

Loafing Oaf · 30-04-2019 04:11PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Re the number of deaths.. one point I would have is that quite a few characters are essentially superflous to the plot at this point, Sam, Ginny

Wel, at least they killed off Ron and Hermione:p

30-04-2019 04:12PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Wel, at least they killed off Ron and Hermione:p

Haha, whoops

Just go to show how pointless she is at this point

fash · 30-04-2019 04:13PM

riffmongous wrote: »

Re the number of deaths.. one point I would have is that quite a few characters are essentially superflous to the plot at this point, Sam, Ginny, Varys, Grey Worm and his missus, Pod, Tormund, even Brienne and Davos.. we saw in the last episodes the effort they have to put in to give them all some bit of screentime so it would have been a meaningful time to thin the ranks a bit and avoid repeats of all the side characters sitting around together for the sake of giving them something to do

For that matter, they could have had Arya die killing the night king. What use is she moving forward?

Thinking about what I would expect for the night king (and borrowing some ideas from people above)- some form of mental communion between Bran and the night king - a psychic battle which distracts him - followed by an attack by perhaps Jon/Jaime - perhaps Jaime dying, sneak attack by Arya, Arya kills him but dies doing so.

A good use of valaryan steel, there is a narrative cost to killing the night king and you avoid the cliche of Jon killing him.

Edit: I'm narratively satisfied with Arya killing him - but without the silly retconning of Melisandre telling her "I knew all the time- even when I said it was the bears, I knew it was you" and a reasonable distraction and death toll allows a more realistic sneak attack.

lawred2 · 30-04-2019 04:23PM

fash wrote: »

For that matter, they could have had Arya die killing the night king. What use is she moving forward?

Thinking about what I would expect for the night king (and borrowing some ideas from people above)- some form of mental communion between Bran and the night king - a psychic battle which distracts him - followed by an attack by perhaps Jon/Jaime - perhaps Jaime dying, sneak attack by Arya, Arya kills him but dies doing so.

A good use of valaryan steel, there is a narrative cost to killing the night king and you avoid the cliche of Jon killing him.

Edit: I'm narratively satisfied with Arya killing him - but without the silly retconning of Melisandre telling her "I knew all the time- even when I said it was the bears, I knew it was you" and a reasonable distraction and death toll allows a more realistic sneak attack.

they'd already done that with Lyanna so to speak

podgemonster · 30-04-2019 04:24PM

riffmongous wrote: »

There has to be more to him though, he's waited how ever many thousand years for his chance to get past the Wall and in the one year he becomes active again he happens to encounter a dragon which solves his problem. There has to be planning and intelligence there, otherwise it's just beyond ridiculous coincidence

Happens to encounter a dragon? I dare say the timing of the NK march south was near perfect. The Dragon was key to the march of the dead in order to destroy the wall. The NK waited until magic returned to the world before launching his attack. The fist of the first men occurs after the dragons are hatched. He's still in the land of Always Winter in S4E4. In Hardhome he recruits a mass amount of Wildlings to his cause as there are trapped by the sea. The scenario in S7E6 was a complete trap to lure Dany and her dragons into the field and in which he took one down.

It was also period where the 7 kingdoms were after a major war. Entire houses gone (Tyrell, Bolton, Baratheon, Frey, Tarly) and the Night watch almost non-existent, so decimated Kingdom is easier to destroy.

Triceratops Ballet · 30-04-2019 04:28PM

riffmongous wrote: »

I'm not saying he needs to win, nothing like that. In fact I totally agree that would be a disastrous ending which I've seen happen before in another franchise. What I'm saying is that there clearly is more to him than the show showed us, which is more bad writing than him not being important. He simply must have some level of intelligence or ability to see the future/past other like I said, otherwise it's just a mad coincidence that he is active now. He didn't need to speak or anything but they have Bran right there doing nothing, they could easily have used him to show us more flashbacks, or in fact just show us something like they did previously before Bran got the Sight

How can there be more to him than the show showed us though, the show runners wrote the show, they decide how much there is of any character! they write all the characters and what their roles are in the grand scheme of things. If they didn't write for him its cos he wasn't a priority!

fash · 30-04-2019 04:30PM

lawred2 wrote: »

they'd already done that with Lyanna so to speak

Was thinking that after I wrote it-it couldn't be used twice of course- but I think it would be more important to get the beats correct in relation to how to end the 10 millenium struggle of the gods - so would sacrifice the scene in relation to Lyanna.

paulbok · 30-04-2019 04:36PM

fash wrote: »

For that matter, they could have had Arya die killing the night king. What use is she moving forward?

Thinking about what I would expect for the night king (and borrowing some ideas from people above)- some form of mental communion between Bran and the night king - a psychic battle which distracts him - followed by an attack by perhaps Jon/Jaime - perhaps Jaime dying, sneak attack by Arya, Arya kills him but dies doing so.

A good use of valaryan steel, there is a narrative cost to killing the night king and you avoid the cliche of Jon killing him.

Edit: I'm narratively satisfied with Arya killing him - but without the silly retconning of Melisandre telling her "I knew all the time- even when I said it was the bears, I knew it was you" and a reasonable distraction and death toll allows a more realistic sneak attack.

If half the white walkers went with the NK and the rest fought Jamie, Brienne etc, killing one or two, one or two WW died with their wights dropping giving a brief respite to the living only to be swamped again, it would have satisfied a lot of the complaints about the battle. Less WW in the Godswood would also have made it more plausible that Arya could sneak past them too.

30-04-2019 04:41PM

podgemonster wrote: »

Happens to encounter a dragon? I dare say the timing of the NK march south was near perfect. The Dragon was key to the march of the dead in order to destroy the wall. The NK waited until magic returned to the world before launching his attack. The fist of the first men occurs after the dragons are hatched. He's still in the land of Always Winter in S4E4. In Hardhome he recruits a mass amount of Wildlings to his cause as there are trapped by the sea. The scenario in S7E6 was a complete trap to lure Dany and her dragons into the field and in which he took one down.

It was also period where the 7 kingdoms were after a major war. Entire houses gone (Tyrell, Bolton, Baratheon, Frey, Tarly) and the Night watch almost non-existent, so decimated Kingdom is easier to destroy.

That's what I'm saying! He clearly foresaw a lot of what is going to happen and planned accordingly

30-04-2019 04:42PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

How can there be more to him than the show showed us though, the show runners wrote the show, they decide how much there is of any character! they write all the characters and what their roles are in the grand scheme of things. If they didn't write for him its cos he wasn't a priority!

Because bad writing :pac: or a lack of screen time, which is a choice. What happens if the NK comes south any other year in the last 10000?

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

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