"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

magic_murph · 30-04-2019 09:07AM

RickBlaine wrote: »

Ok I'll get one tomorrow. Very curious now to see if it will make a difference.

But I see in Twitter that people in the US who watched it on HBO had similar complaints but some didn't.

Very odd.

Agree - I thought the picture quality of the majority of the battle scenes was terrible as in could hardly make out what was going on. I put it down to being deliberate to create a sense of claustrophobia or something - either way it was disapointing

NuMarvel · 30-04-2019 09:07AM

derfderf wrote: »

I wonder are they going to completely side step the reason for Jon Snow bring brought back to life.
If Arya is Azor, and Beric was brought back to life to save her, fair enough.
Why Jon though? Does the lord of light care who ends up on the iron throne?

Just spitballing, but maybe the aim wasn't to get Jon on the Iron throne, just the place where the NK would fall.

If Jon wasn't resurrected, then he wouldn't have retaken Winterfell and restored it to Stark rule. And Arya wouldn't have had a reason to return and be there when the Night King arrived.

30-04-2019 09:07AM

leggo wrote: »

For those saying the show ‘used to’ always have big characters die in major battles, I did a bit of research and here is an extensive list of the named characters that died in the Battle of Blackwater:

Ser Mandon
Davos’ son

And that’s it. Every other main character survived. Shall we go on?

Castle Black

Pyp
Grenn
Ygritte
The Thenn Jon killed

Hardhome

Karsi (who was introduced that episode)
Another Thenn
A White Walker

Battle of the Bastards

Rickon
Wun Wun
Ramsey

Winterfell

Theon
Lyanna
Beric
Jorah
Edd
The Night King
The White Walkers, Viserion & entire Army of the Dead
The Dothrakis

Yeah, this show has really lost its balls huh? :pac:

It's the manner in which they survive in this episode.

Tyrion survived Blackwater believably by getting knocked out for example

Barlett · 30-04-2019 09:10AM

After seven seasons of build up it’s a bit of an anti climax that Cersei is the big villain remaining, I mean the very first five minutes of season one were amazing & hooked you in to the white walker story I hope they have a twist up their sleeve. The show was very enjoyable but the elements the made the show fantastic have disappeared. That said, it’s very difficult to maintain a high standard of storytelling for eight seasons.

Mokuba · 30-04-2019 09:13AM

major bill wrote: »

It’s more the unrealistic approach that was taken in last nights episode, Sam should’ve been a goner! Jon Snow surviving against the odds in Battle AGAIN! One handed Jaime making it into castle! Jorah surviving the initial charge at the start!

Absolutely this was the problem and not people wanting deaths just because.

We were lead to believe that this would be the hardest fight ever fought and that there would be many casualties. In the episode itself it looked like this would prove to be the case.

Then it was filmed in a way in which there should have been many casualties. How many times did a character get saved out of nowhere at the last second? It happened at least 10 times in the episode. 2 times would have been poor writing. They did it over 10 times, it's utterly embarrassing, lowest common denominator stuff. Why put your characters into those situations if you are going to have them live? It is not one bit believable.

kingshankly · 30-04-2019 09:13AM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Any thoughts on how Arya got past all the generals? Just raw pace, agility and guile...?

In a world where we have dragons faceless men three eyed raven and giants plus a few million dead soldiers think it’s feasible arya could have sneaked her way past them😂😂

Triceratops Ballet · 30-04-2019 09:13AM

fitz wrote: »

Little detail spotted on rewatch was the WW who turned his head before Arya attacking NK - his hair moves, like a gust of wind blowing past him. It's obviously Arya racing past.

cos she's a water dancer innit, she's been studying the movement of cats since she began her dancing lessons in Kings Landing in S1. I loved that conclusion! it felt like all that torture we sat through with her and The Waife was worth it, along with that ridiculous parkour in Bravos

Bacchus · 30-04-2019 09:15AM

This episode succeed in both thrilling and disappointing me. Fortunately it thrilled more than it dissapointed so overall it was very enjoyable. Some of the low points before I go into the positives...
- The Dothraki charging into the abyss like lunatics. Ok, I get they're not master tacticians but it was so stupid. It did make for a fantastic visual that ramped up the dread as the lights were extinguished one by one.
- The "The Night King is coming" - "The dead are already here" exchange between Jon and Dany as the Dothraki are getting slaughtered. WTF was even the point of that exchange. Get on your dragons and get on with it.
- The constant changes in the number and strength of the zombies throughout the episode. E.g. One scene, Winterfell is overrun with thousands of zombies storming it. Next scene, our heroes (namely Arya, Beric, and the Hound) are tiptoeing around the castle dodging random zombies.
- Related to that last point, our other heroes (Brienne, Jamie, Sam!, etc.) surviving out in the courtyard that moments earlier was completely overrun. I'm not looking for blood here but if they were going to plot to have these main characters survive they should have had them barricaded in somewhere holding off the horde... not out in the open where literally everyone else died!
- Jorah and Dany holding off the re-raised zombies who very kindly attacked one at a time.
- Dany stupidly landing in the middle of the zombies in the first place.
- I also really wanted some fights with the White Walkers themselves. Particularly after all the Valerian steel talk in the first two episodes I was expecting a couple of good one-on-ones with the likes of Jorah, Jamie, Brienne.

Despite the above issues I had while watching this, it was so good and there were some fantastic moments...
- The tension and dread in the opening half hour was awesome. It was a masacre and it was brutally good... it's just a pity that the early deaths felt a bit tokenistic. Greyworm dying defending the retreat would have followed through on that tension and dread far better.
- Much of the actual battle was fantastic. When they started crossing the trench and climbing the walls...
- The scenes with the dragons in the clouds were magnificant
- Lyanna being a badass to the end
- Arya's journey through the episode, from absolutely kicking ass, to getting bet about a bit and resorting to stealth to survive long enough get her head straight again. I love that she killed the Night King and it was done perfectly.
- In parallel to that I also loved that Jon was essentially just another soldier in this. He put it all on the line to save Bran and kill the Night King but it wasn't to be.
- Theon's arc was closed off perfectly. He was probably the safest bet of who's going to die but it was still a huge scene to watch him defend Bran, and have that moment between them before he died.
- Jorah's death was the next biggest, and he went down a hero for Dany which was perfectly fitting.
- The scenes between Tyrion and Sansa were great.

It wasn't what I expected, and it's not up there with the best of GoT but it was a thrilling battle and had some standout moments. I'm a bit sad to see the Night King story end but at least the focus can be brought back to the Iron Throne which has been a bit neglected for a while now.

leggo · 30-04-2019 09:15AM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I've honestly posted once, to give my opinion. I'm one of those who agrees that the show has gone downhill massively in the last two seasons.

We've all given perfectly valid reasons that are shared among a lot of us.

You seem utterly obsessed with attacking everyone who disagrees with your own opinion, and to be honest, all these 'condradictions' you're waffling on about are largely missing the point anyway.

Take a break from the thread, seriously. You've had your say, arguing with everyone in circles endlessly and then borderline abusing them isn't healthy.

It’s lost on people that I’m replying to posts that address me directly, like this. This isn’t me attacking you, for example, it’s me responding to you addressing me. I came on here yesterday and my first observation of the episode was a criticism: Lyanna killing the giant. But no, ignore that and the legitimate points raised to try invalidate my right to disagree. You’re literally doing the thing you’re accusing me of with this post, well done.

Mokuba · 30-04-2019 09:17AM

kingshankly wrote: »

In a world where we have dragons faceless men three eyed raven and giants plus a few million dead soldiers think it’s feasible arya could have sneaked her way past themðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Establishing fantasy as a trope is not a license to justify terrible writing as plausible because of the fantasy genre.

Christ the amount of times I have seen someone say this in this thread is insane.

Slattsy · 30-04-2019 09:17AM

Well that was rubbish after all the hype. Seemed to be a money saving exercise having everything so dark.

Laughable how there was not a bother on nearly everyone in the crypt

and Sam made it through the night

2/10

murpho999 · 30-04-2019 09:19AM

GreeBo wrote: »

LOL.
Instead of just complaining about the poor dialogue I over-dubbed an episode of ScoobyDoo while I watched it.

Just lol.

LOL? For turning up my brightness a little?

Tonight I'll watch it again on my normal setting, I'm pretty sure that many people's issue is that they do not have their TV's calibrated properly and also maybe non Sky customers are watching from poor sources.

benny79 · 30-04-2019 09:20AM

Jesus the amount of negatively in this thread is unreal! I taught it was a class episode to be honest! the darkness was a pain at times but overall it added to it as you couldn't see and didn't know what was going to happen! A Lot of characters did die.. The head of the wildings for one.. I couldn't really see how they were going to stop the the NK so the whole thing with the ww had to end this episode. He taught the war was won as he walked into the yard with bran, Arya was outstanding! Trained killer.. I didnt get the point of Ghost though as he hasn't been seen in ages was like he was just thrown in there!

To many of you are over thinking things and not just enjoying it for what it is! It was a brillant episode hand in month right till the end! I dont know how many watch Thronecast the show on after but its a must watch and I can't wait to watch it tonight as it explains a lot.

Triceratops Ballet · 30-04-2019 09:20AM

naughtb4 wrote: »

Ah here very little given to a why or even any proper interactions, no real prolonged set backs for the main characters . The WW might as well have been zombies.

The white walkers felt like the real story, the evil to be defeated. The rest, who sits on the iron throne, is temporary and feels like a prologue

dominatinMC wrote: »

After all the build-up of the White Walkers, I can't help but feel their untimely demise was anti-climatic.

I've read this sentiment a lot and it honestly makes no sense to me. What's interesting about the evil characters in the show is their complexity, they all have specific motivations that we see and understand, we know why Cersei wants what she wants, we know what the Boltons wanted, we spent time with them and we get it. The NK and his army have always been a silent unknown quantity we don't really know anything about them. For them to be the main evil in this show, I would have needed to see more of them, I'd have to understand them. They don't even speak like! No way the show could have ended with them overrunning Westeros, it would have been the most unsatisfying ending this show could possibly have had. It's a Game of Thrones, it's not a Winter Apocalypse

30-04-2019 09:20AM

Irish94 wrote: »

Finished watching the episode for the second time tonight. I wanted to watch it a second time before I would make a judgement call on it. I won't go into the whole story line etc. I will try to focus solely on this episode and my thoughts.

I won't lie - as soon as it finished the first time I watched it, I was left with a feeling of disappointment. Oh what could have been? Game of Thrones has always had me on the edge of my seat for battle scenes as I did not know what to expect as anyone could be killed at any moment. As soon as Brienne was swamped by wights in the opening minutes of battle and somehow survived I had a gut feeling none of the main characters would die. The old Game of Thrones, nobody was safe. I won't discuss army battle tactics in reference to the Dothraki charge as I am no military expert; and, it is a fantasy TV series at the end of the day.

The highlights that I enjoyed;

1. The opening 10 minutes of the episode really depicted the intense and worrying atmosphere among all the characters before the battle commenced.

2. Theon's protection of Bran was admirable and Bran thanking him by telling him he was a 'good man' felt to me, a release of guilt for Theon and a weight of his shoulders. I felt he needed to hear that from Bran, or a Stark to finally face his own death.

3. Jorah's death was emotional and a fitting ending for his character. He always loved Dany, but she could never love him in the way he desired yet he did his utmost to protect her.

4. I enjoyed Arya killing the Night King and the story arc. Specifically the dialogue between her and Melisandre and the reference to there conversation back in Season 3. Her battle scenes on the wall and in the halls with Beric and the Hound was the most enjoyable part of the episode for me.

5. Sansa and Tyrion sharing an emotional moment together in the crypts. After all they have been though together earlier, it was nice to see Tyrion hold her hand.

6. The Hound gaining the courage to help Arya showed he truly cared about her more than himself. I feel his story arc is similar in aspects to Jorah. The battle with himself, Beric, Arya and the wights was brilliant viewing. Although he wasn't a 'main' character, Beric's death left me with a feeling of sadness that I hadn't felt since Oberyn's death in Season 4. He sacrificed himself for Arya and the eye contact between them both before he died showed how grateful Arya was.

7. Finally - The Night King soundtrack was an absolutely beautiful score for the last 10 minutes of the episode. The picture of the White Walkers and the Night King walking into Weirwood was phenomenal. At this stage, I thought it was over and they had won and it was a really really well shot scene.

The highlights that left me somewhat disappointed;

1. The White Walkers did not swing a spear/sword once. I felt there was a real opportunity to have a good battle between a White Walker and Thormund/Brienne/Jamie in this episode. Disappointing that they did not take part in the battle.

2. Didn't show Davos fighting at all throughout the episode. How did he survive? He was in the background when Arya was fighting on the wall but that was it.

3. No real shot of Gendry or Thormund fighting throughout the episode. We seen glimpses of Pod, Jamie and Brienne up against a wall fighting but very little of Gendry and Thormund.

4. I presume Ghost is dead?

5. How did the Night King raise the bodies from the crypt? I thought to raise a dead body, it had to be killed by a wight, White Walker or the Night King himself.

6. Jon was surrounded by wights, literally surrounded. The next shot of him is fighting 3 or 4 wights before Dany rescues him. I lost count of the amount of times he should have died in the episode. Don't get me wrong, he's not my favorite character and I don't want him dead but he shouldn't have survived the episode after everything we seen.

7. Perhaps my biggest grief with the episode. After the Night King raises all the dead bodies, it goes though all the main characters showcasing where they are located - everyone in the crypts, Gendry, Greyworm, Thormund, Pod, Brienne, and Jamie all in the courtyard, Jon outside the walls and Theon protecting Bran. Jorah is on his way outside as shown a few minutes beforehand. However, it does not show the Hound and Melisandre. Where are they? In the hall where Arya left them. And what was in the hall with them? The place was flooded with dead wights, who surely rose when the Night King did his magic. How did they survive that? I mean the room was jam packed with dead wights, yet the two of them walk out of the hall after the Night King is killed. A real mistake by the writers here I feel. I didn't notice it on first viewing but it was blatantly obvious on the second viewing.

In conclusion, I am neither truly satisfied by the episode nor truly disappointed. A lot of opportunities to spring a few surprises upon the viewer but I feel the safe option was taken by the writers. This episode had the potential to be a magnificent piece of television but fell short on many aspects. Yet, it had it's moments to keep the viewer intrigued and entertained.

Looking forward to the battle between Dany and Cersei, will be sad when it is all over in less than three weeks!

Well said

johnny_ultimate · 30-04-2019 09:21AM

Certain filmmaking choices probably have a lot to do with the episode’s perceived lack of deaths too. The shot of Sam being drowned in undead; Tyrion and Sansa’s moment of affection amid a hopeless massacre; the decision to show all the main characters as the last men/women standing but getting completely overwhelmed. It all suggests a threat that we haven’t seen before, but one that isn’t reflected in the surprising number of survivors.

One that stood out to me was after Jon left the main yard, just before bumping into the dragon. Those 30 relatively quiet seconds felt like an eternity because I was thinking how long those 30 seconds must have been for the characters we’ve just seen. Surely Sam couldn’t have survived being overwhelmed? But there was no need to worry in the end, and I think that exasperated my sense of things being wrapped up too nicely and easily.

GSPfan · 30-04-2019 09:22AM

It’s a pity we couldn’t get an alternate version of this same episode.

I would have liked to see the dragons starting the battle by scorching thousands of the dead before any living person engaged them. That would have forced NK to appear and the dragons could of chased after him and got distracted that way.

After that it would have been nice to see the living manage to hold back the dead to some degree while some of our main cast heroes tried to get at the WWs. We could have had a few WWs dying during hand to hand battle which in turn makes the dead they control collapse, giving the living armies a slight reprieve. This would have given us a bit of hope our guys would win.

Then a few of our heroes should have died and a retreat back into Winterfell would have put the dead armies in control. A desperate attempt by everyone to keep the dead out should have been where the NK found his way in to Bran all alone in the garden but with Jon appearing in between him and Bran. The NK could have beaten Jon and moved in for the kill but out of nowhere Arya could have made the save.

That version of the battle would have resolved some of the more unbelievable parts of this whole episode. A gradual defeat to the sheer volume of dead should have been the pacing this battle required but they were completely overrun from the start and out smarted in every way but still survived because Arya is apparently Shinobi.

leggo · 30-04-2019 09:22AM

Mokuba wrote: »

Establishing fantasy as a trope is not a license to justify terrible writing as plausible because of the fantasy genre.

Christ the amount of times I have seen someone say this in this thread is insane.

It’s because here’s how a fight against an army of 100,000 zombies led by a godlike figure would go: all of our characters would die. Simple. And that’d make for awful TV.

So you have to sacrifice a certain amount of realism for narrative at some stage for the purpose of telling a good story. If everyone died, then every thread they’ve opened that kept us watching would’ve died with them. You know this. And it’s incredibly pedantic to hold that against them.

Mokuba · 30-04-2019 09:22AM

leggo wrote: »

It’s lost on people that I’m replying to posts that address me directly, like this. This isn’t me attacking you, for example, it’s me responding to you addressing me. I came on here yesterday and my first observation of the episode was a criticism: Lyanna killing the giant. But no, ignore that and the legitimate points raised to try invalidate my right to disagree. You’re literally doing the thing you’re accusing me of with this post, well done.

Stop playing the victim. It's embarrassing. You criticising something does not make you the authority on what is allowed to be criticised. You claimed people who didn't like it are contrary people who don't like it to go against the grain. That is utterly ludicrous.

irishfeen · 30-04-2019 09:24AM

I don’t think people remember fully that the Night King was lured into the vulnerable position that ultimately led to his demise by Bran, the NK’s whole mission was to destroy the 3 eyed raven because it’s him and him only who has the ability to revisit the past, the age of men that the NK wants to destroy.

Mokuba · 30-04-2019 09:29AM

leggo wrote: »

It’s because here’s how a fight against an army of 100,000 zombies led by a godlike figure would go: all of our characters would die. Simple. And that’d make for awful TV.

So you have to sacrifice a certain amount of realism for narrative at some stage for the purpose of telling a good story. If everyone died, then every thread they’ve opened that kept us watching would’ve died with them. You know this. And it’s incredibly pedantic to hold that against them.

Showing people surviving certain death at the last second 10 times is not telling a good story. If they didn't intend to kill off main characters, they should not have repeatedly put them in situations where it was implausible for them to survive.

There were any number of choices the writers could have made to avoid that situation. They were not forced to write those scenes and have Miguel film them the way he did. It was a creative choice and an absolutely terrible one.

They did the exact same thing last season in the Beyond The Wall episode and it was equally poorly written.

Dempsey · 30-04-2019 09:29AM

Bacchus wrote: »

- The "The Night King is coming" - "The dead are already here" exchange between Jon and Dany as the Dothraki are getting slaughtered. WTF was even the point of that exchange. Get on your dragons and get on with it.

Jon thought they could hold back the dragons until they saw the NK/WW were drawn out by Bran but Dany wouldnt wait because the Dothraki were overwhelmed so easily. It shows that whatever battle plan they had, was very quickly out the window. Hence the exchange

leggo · 30-04-2019 09:33AM

Mokuba wrote: »

Stop playing the victim. It's embarrassing. You criticising something does not make you the authority on what is allowed to be criticised. You claimed people who didn't like it are contrary people who don't like it to go against the grain. That is utterly ludicrous.

No I didn’t. I’ve seen criticisms I’ve felt were valid, I just don’t need to re-make those points because they’ve been said. I’m saying that certain points (like how not enough significant characters died, or how the show broke its own rules by not killing main characters in battle) come across as criticism for the sake of it, then back that up with examples from the show.

You know...a discussion.

So either discuss it with me and address the points raised instead of attacking me personally. Except I don’t think you can, your entire debating style seems to take the Eamonn Dunphy approach of just dismissing anything you disagree with without any substantive counterpoint.

Mokuba · 30-04-2019 09:34AM

irishfeen wrote: »

I don’t think people remember fully that the Night King was lured into the vulnerable position that ultimately led to his demise by Bran, the NK’s whole mission was to destroy the 3 eyed raven because it’s him and him only who has the ability to revisit the past, the age of men that the NK wants to destroy.

Why does he want to destroy men?

Is it because he is a villain? Is it too much to expect some depth given to the villains of the show? Even Marvel gave Thanos some bloody motivation. They wrote the Night King into generic bad guy villain.

As for him being lured into a vulnerable place, it certainly didn't seem vulnerable when he was protected by a horde of white walkers and wights, but clearly he didn't account for any invincible teleporting badasses in attendance.

yourdeadwright · 30-04-2019 09:34AM

I don't think that is the end of the white walkers just yet ,

I gotta say it would have be nice to see a few walkers fight the likes of the Hound, Jamie and co ,

Triceratops Ballet · 30-04-2019 09:37AM

Mokuba wrote: »

Why does he want to destroy men?

Is it because he is a villain? Is it too much to expect some depth given to the villains of the show? Even Marvel gave Thanos some bloody motivation. They wrote the Night King into generic bad guy villain.

As for him being lured into a vulnerable place, it certainly didn't seem vulnerable when he was protected by a horde of white walkers and wights, but clearly he didn't account for any invincible teleporting badasses in attendance.

it's hardly teleporting we saw Arya in the great hall what 10-15 mins previous, you think it's inconceivable that she gets from essentially the dining room of her gaff to the back garden in 15 mins?

ThunbergsAreGo · 30-04-2019 09:38AM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I've read this sentiment a lot and it honestly makes no sense to me. What's interesting about the evil characters in the show is their complexity, they all have specific motivations that we see and understand, we know why Cersei wants what she wants, we know what the Boltons wanted, we spent time with them and we get it. The NK and his army have always been a silent unknown quantity we don't really know anything about them. For them to be the main evil in this show, I would have needed to see more of them, I'd have to understand them. They don't even speak like! No way the show could have ended with them overrunning Westeros, it would have been the most unsatisfying ending this show could possibly have had. It's a Game of Thrones, it's not a Winter Apocalypse

And thats the main problem, its not so much with the episode itself but with the entire thing. There has been no reasoning or motivation behind what they have done. They have the perfect plot device in Bran to do it - have a flashback showing why the Night King came to being and why he was so bent on getting to Bran. I was sully expecting one after the stabbing with him morphing into someone or a flashback showing who he was.

Sometimes the zombies walk slowly, sometimes they run, sometimes they attack in a frenzy, sometimes they kindly wait and fight our heroes one by one. Given how it ended, the white walkers just seem like a lazy "evil" plot device to give us big battles.

Mokuba · 30-04-2019 09:38AM

Dempsey wrote: »

Jon thought they could hold back the dragons until they saw the NK/WW were drawn out by Bran but Dany wouldnt wait because the Dothraki were overwhelmed so easily. It shows that whatever battle plan they had, was very quickly out the window. Hence the exchange

That's what happens when you have an army massively inferior in numbers, and send your cavalry forward to engage an enemy, far away from the remainder of your forces, that you can't even see. It's the most outrageously bad battle strategy I've ever seen.

leggo · 30-04-2019 09:39AM

Mokuba wrote: »

Showing people surviving certain death at the last second 10 times is not telling a good story. If they didn't intend to kill off main characters, they should not have repeatedly put them in situations where it was implausible for them to survive.

There were any number of choices the writers could have made to avoid that situation. They were not forced to write those scenes and have Miguel film them the way he did. It was a creative choice and an absolutely terrible one.

They did the exact same thing last season in the Beyond The Wall episode and it was equally poorly written.

What you’re describing here is removing the dramatic tension from a battle, since the only dramatic tension you can really get from a battle is based around characters dying.

THAT is terrible writing and makes for awful TV.

ThunbergsAreGo · 30-04-2019 09:39AM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't think that is the end of the white walkers just yet ,

I gotta say it would have be nice to see a few walkers fight the likes of the Hound, Jamie and co ,

They are all dead, that was the entire point of getting to the NK

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

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