"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

RollieFingers · 29-04-2019 10:27AM

Dial Hard wrote: »

Ah would you ever feck off you miserable killjoys.

It is literally the best TV ever made.

So far... :pac

I thought it was good but not great, was way too dark. Don't think it's the best TV ever made.

Tikki Wang Wang · 29-04-2019 10:28AM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

I really think that if you're that offended by some narrative contrivances that are there to push a story along and in some cases close character arcs, you should stick to non-fiction television.

You could raise these types of arguments against most episodes of TV shows and most fiction/sci-fi/fantasy movies.

Ah here, it was fair rubbish. There are too many willing to forgive all. Many of the issues could have been put right with a bit of thought.

Penn · 29-04-2019 10:31AM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

I really don't get the disappointment that loads of starring characters didn't die...?

The characters we know (vs the nameless) are some of the best warriors, no wonder they survived. I'm glad Brienne, Jamie, Pod etc. survived a battle and weren't offed by some nameless corpse in the corner of the screen. Deaths should mean something. The armies lost thousands, it's enough for me.

The bloodlust is insane here from some people. There were four or five significant casualties, that works for me. If the survivors marched South to Cersei and had barely anyone left but loads of generics, it would suck.

I really enjoy discussion and other people's opinions that are different to mine but these forums really turn into sh¡tshows full of people who just hate episodes for baffling reasons.

For me, it's more about the fact that regardless of how great a fighter you are, if you're backed up against a wall with hundreds of undead soldiers charging at you, your chances of survival are extremely slim. Yet most of the ones who did survive are the people we know, simply because we know them. If they were in a different type of situation, their survival could have been more believable. But Sam was just lying on a bunch of bodies in the middle of the courtyard with the undead all over him, and he survives. Brienne/Pod/Jamie backed up against the wall with hundreds of undead charging at them, and they survive. Jorah charges with the thousands of Dothraki at the undead, and he survives and rides back.

It's not about bloodlust, it's about logic. It's unbelievable that they survived those situations for that long, and so they therefore shouldn't have been shown in those situations. Beric, Theon and Jorah's deaths were ones where they got to make their last stand, all noble and brave, which is a narrative convenience that GOT rarely used to allow (though it can be forgiven in Beric's case given his purpose). Even Lyanna Mormont died taking out a giant.

It just felt odd that almost no named character (except maybe Edd) actually just died while just in the actual fight against the dead army.

Mr. Incognito · 29-04-2019 10:31AM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

I really think that if you're that offended by some narrative contrivances that are there to push a story along and in some cases close character arcs, you should stick to non-fiction television.

You could raise these types of arguments against most episodes of TV shows and most fiction/sci-fi/fantasy movies.

Not really.

I like Star Trek.

I also like the Wire and the Sopranos.

Game of Thrones was like a mix of the Sopranos or the West Wing and Star Trek.

It had the fantasy but it also had hard core political manouvering and intelligent credible characters. The Tyrells, the Lannisters, Tyron as hand, the Red Wedding.

It was an intelligent show.

Now it is not. It is a dumbed down cartoon. It has gone from something that I enjoyed watching to the walking dead.

I never believed that it suffered too much from losing the books. Battle of the Bastards was incredible for example.

But that,

that was basically a marvel episode. I can watch marvel for that.

The Iron Giant · 29-04-2019 10:32AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah, but GOT wasn't just another fantasy TV show up until last season..

You're right, those dragons, a girl surviving fire, a guy being brought back to life every time he dies, white walkers, giant wall etc. were straight out of Attenborough.

It was always fantasy.

29-04-2019 10:33AM

You can easily identify the posters who still watch GoT in the hope of enjoying it but who reluctantly find criticisms and flaws in an imperfect work...versus those who only tune in now to slate it and find whatever faults they can in the hope of proclaiming that something popular is awful.

Why bother?

29-04-2019 10:35AM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

You're right, those dragons, a girl surviving fire, a guy being brought back to life every time he dies, white walkers, giant wall etc. were straight out of Attenborough.

It was always fantasy.

No, it wasn't. It was politics.

homerun_homer · 29-04-2019 10:35AM

What's funny is I really didn't want loads of people to die this week but naturally assumed most would. But in the back of my mind there was too many characters that the story still needs to keep, so I thought maybe there wouldn't be a huge cull. The cull was much smaller than I could ever anticipate. I'm only disappointed in how they survived, pressed against a wall for the last act of the episode, fighting and managing to stay alive? Particularly the much weaker fighters.

There was no way of knowing how many fighters they had left after it, it looked like all but the major characters and few in the crypt survived. I'll need a second watch tonight to see if I can spot the people they will need to take on Cersai after this.

I liked Arya making the kill but thought there may have been more to the Night King in this episode. I was afraid he may speak and possibly ruin how ominous they are, but part of me wanted something fleshed out on that front. In essence they were just a tool from the very start to weaken the increasing army of Dani so she'd be weakened in the final battle(s) with Cersai.

The fast cuts & how darkly lit it was was frustrating. Given all the talk of the 55 days filming at night and the toll it took on everyone, I think the director/editor let the side down a little with how the action was presented, and consistency of the Wights in action. The battle of the bastards was a better fight to watch. I couldn't tell what happened at times, whether a dragon was killed or not.

Overall, a great episode but it hasn't beat what's come before.

29-04-2019 10:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

You can easily identify the posters who still watch GoT in the hope of enjoying it but who reluctantly find criticisms and flaws in an imperfect work...versus those who only tune in now to slate it and find whatever faults they can in the hope of proclaiming that something popular is awful.

Why bother?

Which one do you think I am?

Mr. Incognito · 29-04-2019 10:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

You can easily identify the posters who still watch GoT in the hope of enjoying it but who reluctantly find criticisms and flaws in an imperfect work...versus those who only tune in now to slate it and find whatever faults they can in the hope of proclaiming that something popular is awful.

Why bother?

Check my post history.

I have supported this show every single episode. Including the last two weeks when everyone was slating that.

I am slating the episode because it was rubbish. After treating the audience as semi intelligent for 7 years it treated them like 10 year old fan boys.

It was terrible. The editing was bad. The action was all over the place. The deaths were drawn out and operatic.

What I would have like to have seen and what I expected to see was an inglorious end to lots of beloved characters. I expected to see the wall get over run.

If you want to save Sam and the Onion Knight stick them in the crypts with some dragon glass and have them fight the dead that erupted in their that seem to have been unopposed yet killed a sum total of one insignificant character.

Have the horde breach the walls but dont expect us to accept 100,000 breaching the walls and Jon playing whack a mole with a ****ing dragon.

I am criticising it because it was not just bad, it was an insult to the entire history of the show and the audience.

The Iron Giant · 29-04-2019 10:40AM

homerun_homer wrote: »

What's funny is I really didn't want loads of people to die this week but naturally assumed most would. But in the back of my mind there was too many characters that the story still needs to keep, so I thought maybe there wouldn't be a huge cull. The cull was much smaller than I could ever anticipate. I'm only disappointed in how they survived, pressed against a wall for the last act of the episode, fighting and managing to stay alive? Particularly the much weaker fighters.

There was no way of knowing how many fighters they had left after it, it looked like all but the major characters and few in the crypt survived. I'll need a second watch tonight to see if I can spot the people they will need to take on Cersai after this.

I liked Arya making the kill but thought there may have been more to the Night King in this episode. I was afraid he may speak and possibly ruin how ominous they are, but part of me wanted something fleshed out on that front. In essence they were just a tool from the very start to weaken the increasing army of Dani so she'd be weakened in the final battle(s) with Cersai.

The fast cuts & how darkly lit it was was frustrating. Given all the talk of the 55 days filming at night and the toll it took on everyone, I think the director/editor let the side down a little with how the action was presented, and consistency of the Wights in action. The battle of the bastards was a better fight to watch. I couldn't tell what happened at times, whether a dragon was killed or not.

Overall, a great episode but it hasn't beat what's come before.

The darkness was a bit frustrating at the start alright. When it came closer to Winterfell, the problem somewhat sorted itself but at the start, it was tough to see who was who and grasp the full scale of what was happening.

The dragon chases were a bit tough to follow but I'll give that a pass as they needed the element of surprise and intrigue under the cover of cloud/mist.

LastLagoon · 29-04-2019 10:40AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can easily identify the posters who still watch GoT in the hope of enjoying it but who reluctantly find criticisms and flaws in an imperfect work...versus those who only tune in now to slate it and find whatever faults they can in the hope of proclaiming that something popular is awful.

Why bother?

I tune in because I loved what the show was. I resisted watching for ages because it was dragons and fantasy, only started watching it from start when it was already on season 4 and had all my preconceptions shattered, it was a show for adults
Now it’s the show I thought it was when I refused to start watching it all those years ago. I’m watching it as it’s probably the only closure anyone is going to get (I don’t think the next book will see light of day, let alone the next few)
It’s just sad that a complex , gritty , ruthless show has been reduced to Marvel level rubbish

BoJack Horseman · 29-04-2019 10:41AM

Penn wrote: »

But Sam was just lying on a bunch of bodies in the middle of the courtyard with the undead all over him, and he survives.

It's not about bloodlust, it's about logic.

Correct.

Sam was literally overwhelmed by zombies with only a kitchen knife of obsidian..... but he lives!

Pod, Briene & Jamie are backs to the wall... alone, attacked by literally hundreds... and survive.

The crypts... no way in... no way out..... but unarmed women and babies somehow live

Fantasy still has to obey the rules.

The Iron Giant · 29-04-2019 10:41AM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I am criticising it because it was not just bad, it was an insult to the entire history of the show and the audience.

I think it was just an insult to you and a handful of others because the majority of people on social media loved it and didn't feel treated like a ten year old boy.

Maybe it was subjectively bad but it certainly wasn't objectively bad.

youreadthat · 29-04-2019 10:42AM

At the end of the day when they took the decision not to have the last two series as a full 10 episodes each it was always going to start to feel rushed and a different kind of show. Personally I thought it was a bad decision and the quality of the show has suffered but hey ho.

Given this, last night’s episode was actually ok. You can nitpick boring stuff until Bran starts walking again but in context it was a good episode. Old GoT died ages ago for some reason (money?!) so you’ve just got to look at things with a silver lining.

29-04-2019 10:44AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, it wasn't. It was politics.

And what do you call the meeting and negotiations in the Dragon Pit which went on in last season's finale? Where they called a ceasefire and tried to get Cersei onside against the dead. Or the Dany/Sansa power struggle in Winterfell in the first two episodes of this season.

Even in this battle-centric episode, there were hints of politics with the conments between Sansa/Missandei/Tyrion about 'your dragon queen'.

It's a complete myth that the show has abandoned the political maneuvering and intrigue of earlier seasons.

The Iron Giant · 29-04-2019 10:45AM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Correct.

Sam was literally overwhelmed by zombies with only a kitchen knife of obsidian..... but he lives!

Pod, Briene & Jamie are backs to the wall... alone, attacked by literally hundreds... and survive.

The crypts... no way in... no way out..... but unarmed women and babies somehow live

Fantasy still has to obey the rules.

1. Sam obviously found the courage and strength which he has demonstrated throughout the series. He did kill a whitewalker even though he's an 'awful fighter'. He's gritty and has never given up.

2. They're some of the seven kingdoms best warriors which has been established over seven years. Hardly surprising they were able to survive. Pod you could say was lucky to be with them.

3. Maybe its a case that Arya killed the Night King in time for lots of them survive. None of us have seen the blueprints of the Crypt or what went down there in full.

4. It doesn't obey YOUR implied rules which you've interpreted, there's a difference. The episode would have been ten hours long if they showed us EVERYTHING.

RollieFingers · 29-04-2019 10:46AM

LastLagoon wrote: »

I tune in because I loved what the show was. I resisted watching for ages because it was dragons and fantasy, only started watching it from start when it was already on season 4 and had all my preconceptions shattered, it was a show for adults
Now it’s the show I thought it was when I refused to start watching it all those years ago. I’m watching it as it’s probably the only closure anyone is going to get (I don’t think the next book will see light of day, let alone the next few)
It’s just sad that a complex , gritty , ruthless show has been reduced to Marvel level rubbish

I'm the same, first four seasons are amongst the best TV ever made, but after that apart from moments like BOB and Hardhome the quality has fallen off a cliff. It's just way too contrived like GOT never was, Super John had four or five near misses but was saved every time or just managed to squeeze behind a wall in the nick of time to avoid blue Dragon fire.

Gamer Bhoy 89 · 29-04-2019 10:47AM

I have a feeling this will be one of the most divisive episodes in the series history.
I have not seen so much differing of opinions in my life.

Mr. Incognito · 29-04-2019 10:47AM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

I think it was just an insult to you and a handful of others because the majority of people on social media loved it and didn't feel treated like a ten year old boy.

Maybe it was subjectively bad but it certainly wasn't objectively bad.

I find that I am usually in the miniority.

I was in the minority that read the books long before the TV show.

I was in the miniority that enjoyed the character episodes.

And I am in the minority that has invested over 20 years into this series as a reader and fan to be presented with that ridiculous cartoon and call it for the joke of an episode that it was.

Hardhome- Amazing

Battle of the Bastards- Amazing.

The Spoils of War- Amazing

That. I hated it. I hated hating it but I hated it. The big reveal was that no one was killed and the knight king basically stood around and got shanked by a tree.

29-04-2019 10:47AM

Its very annoying to think Euron and Cersi etc got away without having to deal with any of that!!

I’m glad there’s a week till the next one, I need the break. I’m wrecked

IAMAMORON · 29-04-2019 10:48AM

Crikey reading through this it looks like some people are difficult to please. Some erstwhile criticism indeed. Ever heard of poetic licence?

I though it was great stuff. I was on the edge of my couch, literally.

I actually thought at one point we were going to lose Arya, who it turns out is probably Azor Ahai, wow, who predicted that one?

There are still 3 more episodes so loads of opportunity for more deaths. I think at this stage it is beginning to unravel. I could watch them all right now.

I nearly thought Samwell was a goner …. and poor Lyanna !!!

LFCFan · 29-04-2019 10:49AM

There's 3 episodes left and a throne to sort out. They were hardly going to kill off half the cast before we got to the meat of the story. Plenty of time for more meaningful and emotional deaths. It would have been awful to have characters like Sam or Jamie getting killed by the dead like fodder. Yes, there were issues with the episode and it was very dark in places but mostly that added to the atmosphere of it. For me it was just brilliant TV and I feel sorry for people who spend more time looking for flaws than just enjoying it.

29-04-2019 10:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

And what do you call the meeting and negotiations in the Dragon Pit which went on in last season's finale? Where they called a ceasefire and tried to get Cersei onside against the dead. Or the Dany/Sansa power struggle in Winterfell in the first two episodes of this season.

Even in this battle-centric episode, there were hints of politics with the conments between Sansa/Missandei/Tyrion about 'your dragon queen'.

It's a complete myth that the show has abandoned the political maneuvering and intrigue of earlier seasons.

It's ham-fisted negotiations between the good guys and the bad guys. There isn't any intrigue. "Chaos is a ladder" was many years ago.

The Iron Giant · 29-04-2019 10:52AM

Thinking hypothetically, I think it likely helped in the end that Cersei didn't send her armies down. Extra men likely would have still been too few against the dead and it may have meant extra dead warriors and a force far too big to overthrow and too big to allow Arya, Jon etc. do their thing...

Any thoughts?

BoJack Horseman · 29-04-2019 10:53AM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

1. Sam obviously found the courage and strength which he has demonstrated throughout the series. He did kill a whitewalker even though he's an 'awful fighter'. He's gritty and has never given up.

It wasn't a matter of "courage"

He was literally lying on the ground, on his back covered like a rugby ruck with a half dozen zombies.

And he lives.

And that's before I mention that his other half .... unarmed .... somehow lives?
Did Gilly fend off the undead with her bad Norvern accent?

I'm fine if the writers want characters to live.
But don't show us certain death ---> perfectly safe with nothing in between!

homerun_homer · 29-04-2019 10:56AM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I find that I am usually in the miniority.

I was in the minority that read the books long before the TV show.

Why are you in the Non Book thread?

The Iron Giant · 29-04-2019 10:57AM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It wasn't a matter of "courage"

He was literally lying on the ground, on his back covered like a rugby ruck with a half dozen zombies.

And he lives.

And that's before I mention that his other half .... unarmed .... somehow lives?
Did Gilly fend off the undead with her bad Norvern accent?

I'm fine if the writers want characters to live.
But don't show us certain death ---> perfectly safe with nothing in between!

It was quite literally courage. He literally refused to give up against all odds and found the ability to survive. He was literally faced with a white walker years ago and had no right to survive, but he did. Its meant to show that he's a fighter and a survivor against his own nerves and disbelief in himself. It's a great arc.

The crypts part was pretty brisk and whilst I'm open to correction and as I've said before, maybe Arya got there just in time before too many were taken and the entire crypt overwhelmed. I could be wrong on that but given that things aren't happening in real time, I think it's the narrative it's trying to push us to believe.

Mr. Incognito · 29-04-2019 10:57AM

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

It was quite literally courage. He literally refused to give up against all odds and found the ability to survive. He was literally faced with a white walker years ago and had no right to survive, but he did. Its meant to show that he's a fighter and a survivor against his own nerves and disbelief in himself. It's a great arc.

This is literally nonsense.

29-04-2019 10:58AM

homerun_homer wrote: »

Why are you in the Non Book thread?

Loads of people are in both over the last few seasons since the books are way behind. We just don't post stuff from the books here, which is easy to do because it's just lore and some differences.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forwa

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