US College Bribery Scandal

steddyeddy · 14-03-2019 7:36pm

Also another anecdotally heard but only now confirmed point is that doctors from state schools far out pass private school doctors in terms of academic ability. More using wealth to distort academic ability.

Medical students are nearly twice as likely to graduate top of their class if they were educated in the state sector rather than at fee-paying schools, according to research by the University of Aberdeen. It comes despite the fact students from private institutions score slightly higher in the entry tests.

devlinio · 14-03-2019 8:12pm

I see no issue with people using their money to get their kids into college.

It's the same as if their friend hired their kid in exchange for a favor. Someone else is missing out, yes! But **** happens.

14-03-2019 8:26pm

Ficheall wrote: »

Must not happen so!

Didn’t say that. Just giving my experience.

Did you give in to the pressure or stand your ground?

Realt Dearg Sec · 14-03-2019 9:35pm

devlinio wrote: »

Someone else is missing out, yes! But **** happens.

Someone better is missing out, yes. Then that better person misses out on the opportunity to be the best person they can be and make the most effective possible contribution they can to society, to make way for a thick actress's thick progeny to flounce around in a college where they're out of their depth. Society loses out.

AndrewJRenko · 14-03-2019 10:55pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Also another anecdotally heard but only now confirmed point is that doctors from state schools far out pass private school doctors in terms of academic ability. More using wealth to distort academic ability.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well people often said anecdotally that the richer students in these schools did better because they were the offspring of the rich. Unfortunately this was part of the prejudice that was peddled so people would avoid the painful truth.

Only recently have any proper studies been performed on the topic of a state/private school divide. Now we have them in hand the results are clear that students from state schools do better when they get to university. In other words private school students receive marks that may be far in advance of their actual ability. In other words their achievement is partially bought.

Both UK studies, so I'm not sure the results would transfer, given that we have a fairly different Leaving Cert system. Is it down to academic ability, or motivation, or resilience?

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 12:17pm

Ireland is much more a meritocracy than the UK or USA. I don't think the results are applicable. The UK is very much a two tier system with the richer, less deserving coming out on top.

steddyeddy · 15-03-2019 12:19pm

Lori Loughlin's daughter was one of the beneficiaries of the brides to ensure a college place. Here's her in an earlier video stating she doesn't really care about school. Remember she would have got this place of poorer kids who would kill to get a place in college.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/entertainment/2019/03/13/lori-loughlin-olivia-jade-university-southern-california-admission-scam-mxp-vpx.hln/video/playlists/top-news-videos/

Sleepy · 15-03-2019 12:33pm

I was mainly shocked that it was illegal tbh. I thought paying over-the-odds to get your offspring into ivy league colleges was standard practice. How else could you explain George W Bush having an undergraduate from Yale and an MBA from Harvard?

Twenty Grand · 15-03-2019 3:51pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Lori Loughlin's daughter was one of the beneficiaries of the brides to ensure a college place. Here's her in an earlier video stating she doesn't really care about school. Remember she would have got this place of poorer kids who would kill to get a place in college.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/entertainment/2019/03/13/lori-loughlin-olivia-jade-university-southern-california-admission-scam-mxp-vpx.hln/video/playlists/top-news-videos/

Her views are probably representative of many college students, who got there by merit or other means.

In fairness if your parents were mega millionaires, it's not critical that you receive a high level education. She could probably blog or be an insta hun for the rest of her life.

I'm actually shocked Lori Loughlin lost her job over this.

devlinio · 15-03-2019 4:08pm

This is being blown way out of proportion. The reaction is OTT.

Andrewf20 · 15-03-2019 4:26pm

It's one thing getting into college and another passing the exams.

James Brown · 15-03-2019 5:44pm

Kinda puts the University/College rankings in the ****ter.

devlinio wrote: »

This is being blown way out of proportion. The reaction is OTT.

Tell that to any kid lost out on a place because some rich kid bought better results or faked more extra curricular activities.

James Brown · 15-03-2019 5:48pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

At the top level this is the major reason why DT is despised by Washington.

He can't be controlled.

Cannot be bought.

Are you high? Trump's political 'philosophy' is 100% based on making money for him and his and any nonsense he spouts is to get idiots on side, (those not directly profiting from his shenanigans).
Ironically, his own Trump University was closed after multiple law suits.

Also...

Although Trump Jr. and his family are not accused of the fraud detailed in Tuesday’s charges, reports suggest it was perfectly legal money and connections that helped ease the first family’s way into Penn’s Wharton School and other elite colleges. The backdoor practice is common among wealthy families, college counselors say.
https://www.philly.com/education/college-admission-scandal-trump-donald-jr-university-pennsylvania-wharton-kushner-20190314.html

metaoblivia · 15-03-2019 6:06pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Kinda puts the University/College rankings in the ****ter.

Tell that to any kid lost out on a place because some rich kid bought better results or faked more extra curricular activities.

I have a friend who had a 4.6 GPA, did community service, got great SAT scores, actually played on multiple sports teams and still got rejected from USC. This issue isn't overblown. It stings a lot of people who've been told that college admittance - and success in the US in general - is merit-based but always suspected that it actually wasn't. Now there's proof.

Gimme A Pound · 15-03-2019 6:57pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Yale could do with an International Airport.

Yal6

AndrewJRenko · 16-03-2019 1:07pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Lori Loughlin's daughter was one of the beneficiaries of the brides to ensure a college place. Here's her in an earlier video stating she doesn't really care about school. Remember she would have got this place of poorer kids who would kill to get a place in college.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/entertainment/2019/03/13/lori-loughlin-olivia-jade-university-southern-california-admission-scam-mxp-vpx.hln/video/playlists/top-news-videos/

And in a bizarre twist of fate, the daughter was celebrating spring break with on the yacht of the chairman of the board of USC at the time to story broke. It's a shame she had to interrupt her holiday to go back home and face the music.

steddyeddy · 16-03-2019 1:30pm

devlinio wrote: »

This is being blown way out of proportion. The reaction is OTT.

I don't think it is. Similar things were going on the US and UK to varying levels amounting to wealth of your parents determining your likelihood to getting into university. Often this variable is the primary determinant. In terms of education there has to be a meritocracy or we'll simply afford places and opportunities to those less able because of their wealthy parents.

steddyeddy · 09-04-2019 3:57pm

So during my time in America I noticed an article recycled that has particular relevance to this case. Ohio woman lied about her residency so her kids got a better education in a different school sector and as a result she has landed a jail sentence. Even though the kid's father lives in that district. We need to be honest about a few things in the education system. Privilege buys you advantage over the less privileged, the school you went to plays a major role in your academic success and if you received this privilege and cry discrimination when someone points this out then you're part of the problem.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654

An Ohio mother's attempt to provide her daughters with a better education has landed her behind bars.

Kelley Williams-Bolar was convicted of lying about her residency to get her daughters into a better school district.

"It's overwhelming. I'm exhausted," she said. "I did this for them, so there it is. I did this for them."

Williams-Bolar decided four years ago to send her daughters to a highly ranked school in neighboring Copley-Fairlawn School District.

But it wasn't her Akron district of residence, so her children were ineligible to attend school there, even though her father lived within the district's boundaries.

The school district accused Williams-Bolar of lying about her address, falsifying records and, when confronted, having her father file false court papers to get around the system.

Williams-Bolar said she did it to keep her children safe and that she lived part-time with her dad.

"When my home got broken into, I felt it was my duty to do something else," Williams-Bolar said.

While her children are no longer attending schools in the Copley-Fairlawn District, school officials said she was cheating because her daughters received a quality education without paying taxes to fund it.

"Those dollars need to stay home with our students," school district officials said.

Realt Dearg Sec · 09-04-2019 4:15pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

So during my time in America I noticed an article recycled that has particular relevance to this case. Ohio woman lied about her residency so her kids got a better education in a different school sector and as a result she has landed a jail sentence. Even though the kid's father lives in that district. We need to be honest about a few things in the education system. Privilege buys you advantage over the less privileged, the school you went to plays a major role in your academic success and if you received this privilege and cry discrimination when someone points this out then you're part of the problem.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654

The problem with the school system here is that public schools are funded by local property tax, which perpetuates inequality. If you are from a rich area, you by definition have better funded schools, creating better opportunities than people in poorer areas. It's a ludicrous system.

The only thing worse is the growing movement to get rid of public schools altogether and replace them with private charter schools. This was pioneered in New Orleans after Katrina and is now complete there: private interests swooped into a lot of arenas of public life there after the hurricane and privatised so much of the community's resources with the connivance of big businesses and their bought political allies. Chicago under Rahm Emmanuel has tried to do the same thing but there's been much more pushback there, and with some luck the new regime will undo the damage that he and his administration did.

The point that it all reinforces is that the real scandal here is not the illegal actions of the people scamming the system like the people who paid bribes or this woman falsifying her address. The real scandal is the system itself, which bestows every advantage going on the already very wealthy. It's why it always disgusts me when people say that they did not have any privilege growing up, or that they got where they have because of their own hard work.

They are either lying, or completely oblivious. I'm not sure which is worse.

ceadaoin. · 09-04-2019 4:51pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

The problem with the school system here is that public schools are funded by local property tax, which perpetuates inequality. If you are from a rich area, you by definition have better funded schools, creating better opportunities than people in poorer areas. It's a ludicrous system.

They aren't solely funded by property tax though. Most of the funding comes from the state, the rest local, including property taxes, and a small amount from the federal government. Schools with a high level of children from low income families receive extra funding. What else should be done?

The public school system in general here isn't great, even the best schools are still over crowded and not able to to give the time and resources necessary to support each child. I was even advised by a public school teacher I know to not send my child to one if I could avoid it. That's why my child goes to private school, I know that's a privilege many can't afford but that makes me an evil elitist l guess.

steddyeddy · 09-04-2019 5:05pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

The problem with the school system here is that public schools are funded by local property tax, which perpetuates inequality. If you are from a rich area, you by definition have better funded schools, creating better opportunities than people in poorer areas. It's a ludicrous system.

The only thing worse is the growing movement to get rid of public schools altogether and replace them with private charter schools. This was pioneered in New Orleans after Katrina and is now complete there: private interests swooped into a lot of arenas of public life there after the hurricane and privatised so much of the community's resources with the connivance of big businesses and their bought political allies. Chicago under Rahm Emmanuel has tried to do the same thing but there's been much more pushback there, and with some luck the new regime will undo the damage that he and his administration did.

The point that it all reinforces is that the real scandal here is not the illegal actions of the people scamming the system like the people who paid bribes or this woman falsifying her address. The real scandal is the system itself, which bestows every advantage going on the already very wealthy. It's why it always disgusts me when people say that they did not have any privilege growing up, or that they got where they have because of their own hard work.

They are either lying, or completely oblivious. I'm not sure which is worse.

This one baffles me. In my university employment in Ireland, the UK and the US I heard the mantra "the students in these schools would have done just as well if they went to public schools". In other words A) they got their purely on their own merit and

they think that the exorbitant school fees their parents paid were a complete waste off money.

Either ignorant or lying as you say. Now we have research to suggest that state school students do better at university.

steddyeddy · 09-04-2019 6:18pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

They aren't solely funded by property tax though. Most of the funding comes from the state, the rest local, including property taxes, and a small amount from the federal government. Schools with a high level of children from low income families receive extra funding. What else should be done?

The public school system in general here isn't great, even the best schools are still over crowded and not able to to give the time and resources necessary to support each child. I was even advised by a public school teacher I know to not send my child to one if I could avoid it. That's why my child goes to private school, I know that's a privilege many can't afford but that makes me an evil elitist l guess.

So we shouldn't point out the inequality of opportunity in case we offend someone?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 09-04-2019 6:58pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

So during my time in America I noticed an article recycled that has particular relevance to this case. Ohio woman lied about her residency so her kids got a better education in a different school sector and as a result she has landed a jail sentence. Even though the kid's father lives in that district.

No, he doesn't. Read the article you posted. It's the woman's father (the children's grandfather) who lives in the district.

She was still found guilty of lying about her address, falsifying records, and having her father file false court papers.

Would you support somebody from Crumlin lying about where she lived and falsifying records so that she could send her kids to school in Blackrock?

Realt Dearg Sec · 09-04-2019 10:21pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

That's why my child goes to private school, I know that's a privilege many can't afford but that makes me an evil elitist l guess.

Who said anything about evil? It's just a matter of identifying systems and processes that explain the state of things. Personally I think it can be done better. I would stop allocating public school funding based on property tax for one thing, and instead distribute it equally at a regional level. But that makes me an evil communist I guess.

Twenty Grand · 10-04-2019 1:33am

Apollo Low Raise wrote: »

Would you support somebody from Crumlin lying about where she lived and falsifying records so that she could send her kids to school in Blackrock?

Yep.

Everyone wants what's best for their kids.
If I had to lie to get my children out of a deis school into a safer, more productive environment then I would.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 10-04-2019 9:13am

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Yep.

Everyone wants what's best for their kids.
If I had to lie to get my children out of a deis school into a safer, more productive environment then I would.

Grand.

But can't say you support one mother falsifying her address to get her children into a better school, but you don't support another mother bribing officials to get her children into a better university.

"Everyone wants what's best for their kids" can be dragged out as a justification in both cases.

steddyeddy · 10-04-2019 3:01pm

Apollo Low Raise wrote: »

Grand.

But can't say you support one mother falsifying her address to get her children into a better school, but you don't support another mother bribing officials to get her children into a better university.

"Everyone wants what's best for their kids" can be dragged out as a justification in both cases.

You're comparing a very poor woman lying to get her kids into a better school to a rich woman whose kids already went to a private school lying to get her children into a mediocre college? The school you attend isn't based on merit but a lottery of parental wealth. The university you attend is based on merit but also parental wealth in terms of access to quality education. University entry should be based on merit. I'd say the same if a poorer mother was lying about her child's grades to get into university however the school you attend is a circumstance of birth and an accident of geography.

First of all from the point of view of the child I believe all children deserve an equal opportunity based on merit. In other words children whose parents pay for them to enter private school and children whose parents who lie to get them into private school are not more or less entitled to a good education. Neither child did anything to warrant or disqualify them from a better school.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 10-04-2019 4:49pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

You're comparing a very poor woman lying to get her kids into a better school to a rich woman whose kids already went to a private school lying to get her children into a mediocre college?

I'm pointing out the inconsistency in defending one parent who lied and falsified records to get her children into a better school, while condemning another parent who bribed officials to get her child into a better college.

Do you believe that poor people have a right to act dishonestly, while wealthier people should be held to a different standard?

steddyeddy · 11-04-2019 6:46pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

They aren't solely funded by property tax though. Most of the funding comes from the state, the rest local, including property taxes, and a small amount from the federal government. Schools with a high level of children from low income families receive extra funding. What else should be done?

I meant to address this C. I think the key to helping more is education. For example you rightly acknowledge that your child wouldn't have done as well in public school. I agree with you. The research indicates that the school one attends determines his/her grades and therefore access to third level education. We know for example that comparing two children, both with A grades but one public school educated and one private school educated, it will be the public school child that is superior academically and will generally do better in university. In other words the private-public divide in education isn't giving us a good idea of who deserves to go to university. It's just giving us a good idea of whose parents have more money.

We need to realise as you seem to, that private schooling will usually award the child better results than if they went public. Universities need to reflect that in their admission policies.

ceadaoin. · 11-04-2019 7:27pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I meant to address this C. I think the key to helping more is education. For example you rightly acknowledge that your child wouldn't have done as well in public school. I agree with you. The research indicates that the school one attends determines his/her grades and therefore access to third level education. We know for example that comparing two children, both with A grades but one public school educated and one private school educated, it will be the public school child that is superior academically and will generally do better in university. In other words the private-public divide in education isn't giving us a good idea of who deserves to go to university. It's just giving us a good idea of whose parents have more money.

We need to realise as you seem to, that private schooling will usually award the child better results than if they went public. Universities need to reflect that in their admission policies.

I wasn't too worried about the academics, she would have done just as well, she is already a few grade levels ahead in her reading and vocabulary etc. but I have no illusions that us paying for her schooling have contributed to that. It's because she is just very smart (yes I know, all parents say that but she is!) and I've always encouraged reading and she enjoys it.

I just know for her personally, coming from a kindergarten class of 12 kids, a class size of 30 or even 40 just wouldn't work because she needs to be challenged. I'm not trying to buy her "smarts" or good grades but trying to give her the best chance to thrive

This is also a problem for kids who might struggle in some areas in public school. It's easy for them though get left behind when there aren't enough resources to help each child as an individual. A smart or even mediocre kid with parents who are involved in their schooling will do well in any learning environment IMO.

steddyeddy · 12-04-2019 7:24pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I wasn't too worried about the academics, she would have done just as well, she is already a few grade levels ahead in her reading and vocabulary etc. but I have no illusions that us paying for her schooling have contributed to that. It's because she is just very smart (yes I know, all parents say that but she is!) and I've always encouraged reading and she enjoys it.

I have no doubt your kid is smart C and fair play for engaging in her education. Please take that sentence in isolation and don't let the following detract from that genuine compliment.

There's no way your kid would do as well in a class with 30 or 40 people. There's no way deep down that you don't think the school makes a difference to your child's potential grade. You acknowledge as much when you say

"I just know for her personally, coming from a kindergarten class of 12 kids, a class size of 30 or even 40 just wouldn't work because she needs to be challenged"

and then contradict yourself when you say "

]I wasn't too worried about the academics, she would have done just as well

How do you reconcile this?

I just know for her personally, coming from a kindergarten class of 12 kids, a class size of 30 or even 40 just wouldn't work because she needs to be challenged. I'm not trying to buy her "smarts" or good grades but trying to give her the best chance to thrive

Fair play for helping her. I'm not attacking you for doing so.

This is also a problem for kids who might struggle in some areas in public school. It's easy for them though get left behind when there aren't enough resources to help each child as an individual. A smart or even mediocre kid with parents who are involved in their schooling will do well in any learning environment IMO.

It's a problem for every kid. Trust me I've worked with lots of kids in university. You're talking about being smart but it's also about being confident. Right now in our group there's a master's student whose exceptionally bright and picks up things fast but lacked any sort of confidence. Another student did his undergrad in Oxford and was educated in a top school. He's slower to pick things up but generally does better on exams because he has a confidence far in excess of his ability. It's not just about intelligence.

You make the point about reading to your kids. Fair play again but do you think that's really the single variable that's holding back some kids? Kids who are smart or mediocre in the state sector aren't only competing against other kids in the state sector they're competing against kids with far more advantage in the private sector.

You said you like reading. Well can you give me your opinion on the actual research on this topic? Research from Durham university shows that when you account for family background, gender or even prior attainment that private school students were in receipt of nearly two thirds of a grade above state school pupils. Simply based on the school they went to.

AndrewJRenko · 18-04-2019 9:35am

Apollo Low Raise wrote: »

Would you support somebody from Crumlin lying about where she lived and falsifying records so that she could send her kids to school in Blackrock?

There are plenty of 2nd generation parents around south Dublin using the granny's address to get access to their old school, rather than their local school.

notobtuse · 18-04-2019 6:47pm

Operation Varsity Blues is on everyone’s discussion table here in the states. The outrage from regular folks is not so much the bribery/pay offs (that happens, and then there are legacy spots, big donations to the universities, sports spots, professor and university employee's children getting a free ride into the university, etc) but rather the taking away a spot from a more deserving student. My youngest was accepted into an elite university in Washington, DC. Her jealous high school classmates are claiming we bought her way into the university. We had nothing to do with her application and couldn’t even afford a bribe, but it’s funny how current events jumps into people’s minds right from the get-go.

steddyeddy · 19-04-2019 7:29pm

Apollo Low Raise wrote: »

I'm pointing out the inconsistency in defending one parent who lied and falsified records to get her children into a better school, while condemning another parent who bribed officials to get her child into a better college.
Do you believe that poor people have a right to act dishonestly, while wealthier people should be held to a different standard?

Hey Vox I thought I'd replied to this sorry. I think college and school are a bit different.

School is what you go to to provide the education needed to enter college/university.

The entry criteria to university the grades you receive in university so their based on merit. The high school you go to depends on how relatively well off your parents are. People may kid themselves and say well my son/daughter would have done exactly the same in a far worse school or their child is more intelligent than the rest anyway but study after study disproves this. It's the school you go too and more specifically it's the relative income of your parents that determine your ability to enter university.

Rich kids already have a large advantage over poor kids regardless of their intelligence. A poor mother trying to get her kid up to par with kids that have an unfair head start is a far cry from a mother buying her kid's way into university when they already had every chance to do that (and failed).

poisonated · 19-04-2019 10:41pm

Reading some of the posts here, people seem to think that private schools have better teachers. That is not true.

Gimme A Pound · 19-04-2019 10:46pm

poisonated wrote: »

Reading some of the posts here, people seem to think that private schools have better teachers. That is not true.

Yup, same training.

steddyeddy · 20-04-2019 10:33am

poisonated wrote: »

Reading some of the posts here, people seem to think that private schools have better teachers. That is not true.

Ella Mealy Visa wrote: »

Yup, same training.

Same training? You mean the training you do to be a teacher or the education you receive in the subject you teach.

steddyeddy · 20-04-2019 10:45am

Ella Mealy Visa wrote: »

Yup, same training.

poisonated wrote: »

Reading some of the posts here, people seem to think that private schools have better teachers. That is not true.

Either way guys I don't know how this works out in Ireland but studies in the UK do demonstrate private school teachers have better education.

http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp94.pdf

We find that independent schools are employing a disproportionate
share of teachers in Britain, relative to the number of pupils they educate, and that the
gap between the independent and state sector has been increasing. Independent school
teachers are more likely than state school teachers to possess post-graduate
qualifications, and to be specialists in shortage subjects.

B.A._Baracus · 20-04-2019 12:18pm

Is anyone truly shocked by this? :pac:
Corruption every where.

Gimme A Pound · 20-04-2019 2:42pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Same training? You mean the training you do to be a teacher or the education you receive in the subject you teach.

Teacher training.

I would imagine a private school with higher expectations and a culture of achievement and aiming for the most prestigious third level institutions, brings out the best in teachers.

I went to a school which lacked such a culture and you could just sense the teachers giving up the ghost because they were met with such apathy. I know they'd have fared far better in a different environment.

steddyeddy · 20-04-2019 6:32pm

Ella Mealy Visa wrote: »

Teacher training.

I would imagine a private school with higher expectations and a culture of achievement and aiming for the most prestigious third level institutions, brings out the best in teachers.

I went to a school which lacked such a culture and you could just sense the teachers giving up the ghost because they were met with such apathy. I know they'd have fared far better in a different environment.

Your point is perfectly illustrated by this comic.

privilege-explanation-comic-strip-on-a-plate-toby-morris-1.gif

privilege-explanation-comic-strip-on-a-plate-toby-morris-2.gif

privilege-explanation-comic-strip-on-a-plate-toby-morris-3.gif

privilege-explanation-comic-strip-on-a-plate-toby-morris-4.gif

Kirby · 20-04-2019 6:58pm

Hmmm. Not exactly what I took away from that comic.

steddyeddy · 20-04-2019 7:06pm

Kirby wrote: »

Hmmm. Not exactly what I took away from that comic.

Well it does have a panel with an exhausted teacher on it.

20-04-2019 7:31pm

It implies that anyone who comes from a comparatively better off background doesn't deserve their success, that they probably didn't study as hard or work or put in as much effort as the person who comes from a more challenging background who may be just as bright but lacks opportunity. It's a bit simplistic. You can work hard and earn success without it being handed to you, regardless of your parents circumstances. And you can work hard and have nothing handed to you, regardless of your parents circumstances.

The difference is opportunity, and while true equality of opportunity is as hard to agree on as anything else, it's something that should be strived for. It's almost impossible to factor in things like parental involvement, or living environment, so that leaves schooling - as opposed to education which starts at home - and if someone is lucky, their schooling is encouraged in an all round supportive environment. Sadly, lots of very bright people from all backgrounds don't have that and you can't do much about it and their outcomes will be poorer than the kid with interested and involved parents.

If there were more educational supports for people in more resource deprived circumstances that would be a start, but someone is always going to see any attempt at levelling a playing field as being discriminatory towards some other group. Black people in the US benefited enormously with quotas because the education system in decades past was without doubt institutionally racist, and in the same vein I would totally support efforts to ensure bright people from challenged circumstances get the same help, but as sure as the sun rises in the morning and that there were white people complaining about black people getting 'preferential' treatment, there will, sadly, certainly be people pointing the finger at the recipients of quotas regarding financial circumstances complaining at their preferential treatment, and that the only reason they're there is because they make up the numbers.

Which is as crappy as insinuating that kids from better off backgrounds had everything handed to them. Nobody has control over the family they're born into and making assumptions about kids because of the financial situation of their parents is always wrong.

It's still important to do whatevers possible to make sure people have opportunities, but it really needs to be a multi-pronged approach that involved everything from schools and educational support, to parenting courses, housing and diet. And few people will want to pay the kind of taxes needed for that.

Purple Mountain · 20-04-2019 7:38pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Is anyone truly shocked by this? :pac:
Corruption every where.

If this happened in Ireland, we'd tut a bit but what we'd really mean is fair play to them, because if we had the money we'd do the same and not have to worry about being sent to jail.

20-04-2019 7:41pm

The reality is that 'legacy brats' have their college places bought completely openly and above board, requiring them to reach a minimum grade for entry but that's likely to be much less - and more flexible - than other applicants.

UpintheAir1 · 20-04-2019 7:51pm

haha so true

UpintheAir1 · 20-04-2019 7:54pm

admissions in Ireland exploits poor kids in more subtle ways because where there is no differentiation in points required on the basis of one's socio-economic background, there is an implicit bias that favours kids from stable, middle-class backgrounds that have access to the best teachers.

AndrewJRenko · 21-04-2019 9:11pm

Candie wrote: »

in the same vein I would totally support efforts to ensure bright people from challenged circumstances get the same help

Would you support efforts to get help for not-so-bright people for challenged circumstances, who may well be in more need of help?

21-04-2019 9:37pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would you support efforts to get help for not-so-bright people for challenged circumstances, who may well be in more need of help?

Of course I would. Any support needed to equalize educational opportunities, regardless of ability. I was particularly thinking of university entrance there but I should have phrased it better.

In all areas of life really, including but not limited to education.

US College Bribery Scandal

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