The Sub 3 Support Thread

kerrylad1 · 08-04-2019 8:46pm

Itziger wrote: »

1.24 seems a bit conservative off a 2.58. Chuck in a few faster reps in preparation for the Half and see if you can't aim for a 1.22 or so.

Will do.cheers.

healy1835 · 09-04-2019 1:08pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

I want to take my hm time down but I always seem stuck in marathon programmes

I was a bit burnt out after Dublin as I'd done Berlin, Rotterdam, Limerick & Dublin in the space of just over a year.....so this will be the first time I run a half outside of marathon training. Saying that, I've always raced the halves that I've done. Definitely feeling fresher with the drop in mileage though.

rooneyjm · 09-04-2019 10:54pm

Did Manchester also. Didn’t do as much training as for Berlin (3.05) so I aimed for 3.15. Felt good after a few mile so pushed on a bit, finished 3.09. Negative split and finished strong. Feel good today, hopefully can push on now through the summer and have a go at sub 3

Tommy Max · 11-04-2019 9:21pm

Just looking for guidance on how a typical week of mileage is best is structured before getting into the main marathon training cycle. obviously a long run on weekend but wondering how best to build up mileage to target a sub 3 marathon. would the following be a good breakdown?

mon 10 miles
tues 6 miles
wednesday 6 miles
Thursday 12 miles
fri none gym day
saturday 8 miles
sunday 18 miles

currently 40 miles a week over 5 days is about as much i get in max on a good week. but ive been told anything less than 60 is wasting your time for a marathon if aiming for sub3 unless you have your blessed with super genes or talent.

interested to hear what has worked well for others. ideally 5 days but im guessing 6 days willbe needed per week. not interested in doubles. havent the time for that.

rooneyjm · 11-04-2019 11:46pm

Tommy Max wrote: »

Just looking for guidance on how a typical week of mileage is best is structured before getting into the main marathon training cycle. obviously a long run on weekend but wondering how best to build up mileage to target a sub 3 marathon. would the following be a good breakdown?

mon 10 miles
tues 6 miles
wednesday 6 miles
Thursday 12 miles
fri none gym day
saturday 8 miles
sunday 18 miles

currently 40 miles a week over 5 days is about as much i get in max on a good week. but ive been told anything less than 60 is wasting your time for a marathon if aiming for sub3 unless you have your blessed with super genes or talent.

interested to hear what has worked well for others. ideally 5 days but im guessing 6 days willbe needed per week. not interested in doubles. havent the time for that.

A good place to start is the previous 218 pages on the thread, I’d be surprised if you don’t find what you are looking for.

dna_leri · 12-04-2019 9:33am

Tommy Max wrote: »

Just looking for guidance on how a typical week of mileage is best is structured before getting into the main marathon training cycle. obviously a long run on weekend but wondering how best to build up mileage to target a sub 3 marathon. would the following be a good breakdown?

mon 10 miles
tues 6 miles
wednesday 6 miles
Thursday 12 miles
fri none gym day
saturday 8 miles
sunday 18 miles

currently 40 miles a week over 5 days is about as much i get in max on a good week. but ive been told anything less than 60 is wasting your time for a marathon if aiming for sub3 unless you have your blessed with super genes or talent.

interested to hear what has worked well for others. ideally 5 days but im guessing 6 days willbe needed per week. not interested in doubles. havent the time for that.

A few points to suggest:
Don't go straight from 40 mpw to 60, build up to it by adding 5 miles a week.
Make sure your runs are not all at the same pace - maybe once a week at marathon pace, once faster, the rest slower.
The 10 miles on Monday looks risky the day after the long run, if you are not used to it, could you swap with Tuesday?
Have a look at transitioning to a marathon plan like P&D 70 mi / 18 Wk. It starts at 53 mi, building up to 70 mi with 5x 20+ mi long runs.

Good luck.

AuldManKing · 12-04-2019 9:33am

Tommy Max wrote: »

Just looking for guidance on how a typical week of mileage is best is structured before getting into the main marathon training cycle. obviously a long run on weekend but wondering how best to build up mileage to target a sub 3 marathon. would the following be a good breakdown?

mon 10 miles
tues 6 miles
wednesday 6 miles
Thursday 12 miles
fri none gym day
saturday 8 miles
sunday 18 miles

currently 40 miles a week over 5 days is about as much i get in max on a good week. but ive been told anything less than 60 is wasting your time for a marathon if aiming for sub3 unless you have your blessed with super genes or talent.

interested to hear what has worked well for others. ideally 5 days but im guessing 6 days willbe needed per week. not interested in doubles. havent the time for that.

I'd have a block of training focused on 10k distance that then leads into a 12-14 week training block for the marathon.

For the 10k stuff I'd do 2 sessions - Tues / Fri and a long run upto 16 miles on Sunday. Easy runs in between with strides on 2 days.

For the Mara - 1 big session midweek and 1 long run that alternates between an easy paced long run and a long run with Stuff (MP/tempo miles included to varying degrees). All easy paced stuff in between - no easy run longer than 9m needed outside of the big session & long run.

For both the 10k & Mara plans dont be afraid to let the easy day pace fall to 8 or 9 min miles. Big learning for me this past 18 months.

Do a search for Tergat on the Boards search bar - some great nuggets from him in this sub 3 forum. He's now plying his trade as a successful US coach.

squinn2912 · 14-04-2019 4:24pm

73.5 mile week and I’m into taper now. Did a 10k race in 36:19. What should the goal time be for Belfast?

kerrylad1 · 14-04-2019 4:41pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

73.5 mile week and I’m into taper now. Did a 10k race in 36:19. What should the goal time be for Belfast?

Ur flying it man.Maybe start at 2:55 pace and try to do a 1 to 2 minute negative split,a run like you did for Dublin would be ideal.Has ur training gone to plan?

squinn2912 · 14-04-2019 5:29pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

Ur flying it man.Maybe start at 2:55 pace and try to do a 1 to 2 minute negative split,a run like you did for Dublin would be ideal.Has ur training gone to plan?

Thanks lad. I’ll see how that pace feels. Would like a pb. Training has been good yea. Fewer miles but more speed so we’ll see how that goes

Pmaldini · 16-04-2019 9:03am

subzero3 from these parts ran 2.39.xx in Boston yesterday, a 10 min PB on London last year, very well done John

AuldManKing · 16-04-2019 9:11am

At that level, I'd love to know the difference in approach that brought about a 10 min PB in a year.

Swashbuckler · 16-04-2019 9:37am

AuldManKing wrote:

At that level, I'd love to know the difference in approach that brought about a 10 min PB in a year.

If we're talking about the same guy he's on Strava. Although it would take a bit of work stalking a years worth of running.

kerrylad1 · 16-04-2019 9:46am

Fantastic result.

squinn2912 · 17-04-2019 11:30pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

Fantastic result.

Must have been something pretty drastic! Super running

squinn2912 · 18-04-2019 8:25am

https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20788508/learn-how-to-do-a-perfect-tempo-run/

Good article on tempo run pace. I think a race is key sobyou know what you’re measuring

Tommy Max · 18-04-2019 11:11am

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'd have a block of training focused on 10k distance that then leads into a 12-14 week training block for the marathon.

For the 10k stuff I'd do 2 sessions - Tues / Fri and a long run upto 16 miles on Sunday. Easy runs in between with strides on 2 days.

For the Mara - 1 big session midweek and 1 long run that alternates between an easy paced long run and a long run with Stuff (MP/tempo miles included to varying degrees). All easy paced stuff in between - no easy run longer than 9m needed outside of the big session & long run.

For both the 10k & Mara plans dont be afraid to let the easy day pace fall to 8 or 9 min miles. Big learning for me this past 18 months.

Do a search for Tergat on the Boards search bar - some great nuggets from him in this sub 3 forum. He's now plying his trade as a successful US coach.

Thanks auldmanking. Yes I was thinking only two workouts per week for the marathon phase as the two workouts would be long and require a lot of recovery I assume. This morning I did an 8 mile @ 6.37 per mile average with 2 mile warm up. A bit faster than marathon pace but probably about right for a long tempo would you say? Felt comfortable. First few miles felt the worst and the rest was very comfortable at that pace. Thinking of alternating my tempo workout between shorter 25 minute one week and long tempo the following week.

shotgunmcos · 18-04-2019 11:38am

Tommy Max wrote: »

Thanks auldmanking. Yes I was thinking only two workouts per week for the marathon phase as the two workouts would be long and require a lot of recovery I assume. This morning I did an 8 mile @ 6.37 per mile average with 2 mile warm up. A bit faster than marathon pace but probably about right for a long tempo would you say? Felt comfortable. First few miles felt the worst and the rest was very comfortable at that pace. Thinking of alternating my tempo workout between shorter 25 minute one week and long tempo the following week.

Hey Tommy

The longer tempo run is key for the marathon plan. 6:37 for 8 miles is a solid workout and definitely sub3 material (with other runs types in context). AMK being an actual sub3er would be in a better position than us sub3 aspirants for sure. However its very different strokes for different folks.

Have you done a marathon before? AMK alluded to a 10k block before the marathon plan and that really is because you need to hit a marathon plan (12-14, 18 week etc) running, excuse the pun, with base fitness. This usually means having mileage consistently up where your plan will be on average, for a few weeks before the plan starts.

If you are running 40 miles over 5 days with a midweek tempo of 8 miles plus warm up, you have the bones of it. What Marathon are you aiming for?

Tommy Max · 18-04-2019 4:38pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Hey Tommy

The longer tempo run is key for the marathon plan. 6:37 for 8 miles is a solid workout and definitely sub3 material (with other runs types in context). AMK being an actual sub3er would be in a better position than us sub3 aspirants for sure. However its very different strokes for different folks.

Have you done a marathon before? AMK alluded to a 10k block before the marathon plan and that really is because you need to hit a marathon plan (12-14, 18 week etc) running, excuse the pun, with base fitness. This usually means having mileage consistently up where your plan will be on average, for a few weeks before the plan starts.

If you are running 40 miles over 5 days with a midweek tempo of 8 miles plus warm up, you have the bones of it. What Marathon are you aiming for?

Hi Shotgunmcos.

hopefully Dublin. will be my first. have a half marathon PB of 1.22 last year. the last month or so, yes my mileage has been around 40 over 5 days. no torturous workouts.

trying to get time to get in more mileage will be the big challenge. have to respect the race distance. not enough hours in the day for getting in big mileage so im basically trying to get the max i can out of the least amount of mileage. big mileage seems get people great times but young family have to come first so id say if i can get up to around 55 in the peak weeks it will prob be about the most il get in. the worry is that will be probably be on the light side for dublin which is a challenging enough course.

hows your training going. u getting in decent mileage?

shotgunmcos · 18-04-2019 8:16pm

Tommy Max wrote: »

Hi Shotgunmcos.

hopefully Dublin. will be my first. have a half marathon PB of 1.22 last year. the last month or so, yes my mileage has been around 40 over 5 days. no torturous workouts.

trying to get time to get in more mileage will be the big challenge. have to respect the race distance. not enough hours in the day for getting in big mileage so im basically trying to get the max i can out of the least amount of mileage. big mileage seems get people great times but young family have to come first so id say if i can get up to around 55 in the peak weeks it will prob be about the most il get in. the worry is that will be probably be on the light side for dublin which is a challenging enough course.

hows your training going. u getting in decent mileage?

I'm in a similar boat to you and others. Small kids with their own activities and all the usual life stuff. I used to think 50m was a big week. Did a few last year and got injured. Following a more progressive plan this year and 50m is grand. Have had a few 60+ and one over 70m. It meant beefing up midweek mileage and just running a lot of very early mornings to get them done.

1:22 half and 8m at 6:37 more recently. You are more than in the ballpark! I'm aiming for sub3 at Dublin too and using Limerick to build the Base and get the body used to tempo and mileage.

Even with an 18 week plan leading up to DCM you have 8 weeks to get in shape for that plan. As AMK suggested a good opportunity to do a 10k for an interim goal. Plus the main difference between 10k training and Marathon is the LR. Keep the midweek tempo but no need for more than 8m and good idea to do it every second week with a shorter one between. Just make sure all your easy miles are easy.

55m a week is not to be sniffed at. Many have executed a sub 3 off that or less. While I have some 60+ weeks the average for Limerick will be about 50m. I missed 2 weeks I'll so call it 55m if those were included. I won't hit sub 3 for Limerick but that's not due to the plan (Hansons Advanced). It will be more down to not having the foundation laid 8 weeks or more before I started the plan and viritually no running for 3 years prior.

You have a good opportunity to get in shape to train at the paces to go sub 3. I did 3:00:20 in Connemara years ago off 45m a week and a 1:25 half BUT I had a very good Base from the winter behind me.

If you kept you midweek tempo with 14min either side for warm up and cool down, add a 10-12m long run and fill the rest with easy miles to bring you to 50m per week, consistently for the next 2 months, you'd be in great shape to start a sub 3 DCM plan. It will just be about progressively longer long runs with marathon paced miles to build the strength endurance. I get the feeling if you can keep yourself healthy and take your time you might just nail it on your first go!

Imagine turning a Styrofoam cup inside out in terms of building for a marathon

RayCun · 18-04-2019 8:24pm

You lost me with the Styrofoam cup?

shotgunmcos · 18-04-2019 9:13pm

RayCun wrote: »

You lost me with the Styrofoam cup?

Build slowly and carefully or it will tear

Tommy Max · 19-04-2019 6:36am

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I'm in a similar boat to you and others. Small kids with their own activities and all the usual life stuff. I used to think 50m was a big week. Did a few last year and got injured. Following a more progressive plan this year and 50m is grand. Have had a few 60+ and one over 70m. It meant beefing up midweek mileage and just running a lot of very early mornings to get them done.

1:22 half and 8m at 6:37 more recently. You are more than in the ballpark! I'm aiming for sub3 at Dublin too and using Limerick to build the Base and get the body used to tempo and mileage.

Even with an 18 week plan leading up to DCM you have 8 weeks to get in shape for that plan. As AMK suggested a good opportunity to do a 10k for an interim goal. Plus the main difference between 10k training and Marathon is the LR. Keep the midweek tempo but no need for more than 8m and good idea to do it every second week with a shorter one between. Just make sure all your easy miles are easy.

55m a week is not to be sniffed at. Many have executed a sub 3 off that or less. While I have some 60+ weeks the average for Limerick will be about 50m. I missed 2 weeks I'll so call it 55m if those were included. I won't hit sub 3 for Limerick but that's not due to the plan (Hansons Advanced). It will be more down to not having the foundation laid 8 weeks or more before I started the plan and viritually no running for 3 years prior.

You have a good opportunity to get in shape to train at the paces to go sub 3. I did 3:00:20 in Connemara years ago off 45m a week and a 1:25 half BUT I had a very good Base from the winter behind me.

If you kept you midweek tempo with 14min either side for warm up and cool down, add a 10-12m long run and fill the rest with easy miles to bring you to 50m per week, consistently for the next 2 months, you'd be in great shape to start a sub 3 DCM plan. It will just be about progressively longer long runs with marathon paced miles to build the strength endurance. I get the feeling if you can keep yourself healthy and take your time you might just nail it on your first go!

Imagine turning a Styrofoam cup inside out in terms of building for a marathon

Best of luck with Limerick. Should give you a clear picture of where you are at but what ive noticed is alot of peole who run a marathon maybe 6 months or so before another marathon usually do really well off the solid base they have. you will have a super base heading into the Dublin training cycle.

i never raced in connemara but have heard both full and half are gruelling events so if you hit that time off low enough mileage back then, you must have alot of talent. that was a super time for a really tough course.

i respect the marathon and am cautious about the challenge. have seen guys with consistently super fast times at shorter events completely blow up in marathon. some who would be a decent bit faster than me at 5k and 10k but only scraping through whereas guys a decent bit slower than me at shorter events have gone closer to 2.55 or 2.50.

How did you progress your mileage build up to get it to 60 mile weeks? and would your 60 mile week be over 7 days or how would you break down your mileage typically over a week?

Casey78 · 21-04-2019 10:09am

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'd have a block of training focused on 10k distance that then leads into a 12-14 week training block for the marathon.

For the 10k stuff I'd do 2 sessions - Tues / Fri and a long run upto 16 miles on Sunday. Easy runs in between with strides on 2 days.

For the Mara - 1 big session midweek and 1 long run that alternates between an easy paced long run and a long run with Stuff (MP/tempo miles included to varying degrees). All easy paced stuff in between - no easy run longer than 9m needed outside of the big session & long run.

For both the 10k & Mara plans dont be afraid to let the easy day pace fall to 8 or 9 min miles. Big learning for me this past 18 months.

Do a search for Tergat on the Boards search bar - some great nuggets from him in this sub 3 forum. He's now plying his trade as a successful US coach.

What did your 1 midweek big workout sessions look like?
I'm not near sub 3 yet but as there is no sub 3:15 thread I follow this thread for tips.

healy1835 · 21-04-2019 1:00pm

Casey78 wrote: »

What did your 1 midweek big workout sessions look like?
I'm not near sub 3 yet but as there is no sub 3:15 thread I follow this thread for tips.

Good few in and around 3:15 posting in here.....

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057743907/1/#post103588931

AuldManKing · 21-04-2019 5:51pm

Casey78 wrote: »

What did your 1 midweek big workout sessions look like?
I'm not near sub 3 yet but as there is no sub 3:15 thread I follow this thread for tips.

I followed this twice for the midweek sessions. Got me to 2.58 in San Seb.

http://www.bournemouthac.co.uk/training/BAC_Marathon_Sessions_2016.pdf

This year was all about Jack Daniels Plan A
some of the sessions were;

5x1m Tempo (1 min rec) + 60min Easy
5x1200
6x5mins hard
4x2m Tempo off 2 min rec (a few times in the plan)
8x5 mins tempo off 30 secs rec
1 hour easy / 6x1mile Tempo off 1 min / 2 mile easy
5easy/3Temo/5easy/3 Tempo/2 easy - continuous

This is the 1st year I felt I was able to do a JD Marathon plan - in previous years I tried and found them too difficult - I got knackered after a few weeks - I tried it before San Seb and found it too hard - so settled on the plan within the PDF above - using the sessions in a P&D structure.

squinn2912 · 21-04-2019 6:28pm

Two weeks until Belfast marathon. I’ll share this week’s training if it interests anyone - I think it went well. Obviously you can’t just pluck one week out of a programme but we all have our weeks when we feel it’s making the difference.

M - 8 miles easy
T - rest (been suiting me better lately)
W - 2m WU/CD 8 mile tempo average 6:18/m
T - 8 miles easy
F - 2m WU/CD 3x2m (12:18, 11:58, 12:12) 3 min recovery
S - 8 miles easy
S - 16 miles, 7:30 average, last mile 6:32 in 20 degree temperature

62.5 miles for the week

So now I cut back a bit and let the body heal. Feel happy with training and feeling full of energy
Think I’m well set up to run well in Belfast. Of course variables on the day could cost me but training been good

healy1835 · 21-04-2019 6:36pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Two weeks until Belfast marathon. I’ll share this week’s training if it interests anyone - I think it went well. Obviously you can’t just pluck one week out of a programme but we all have our weeks when we feel it’s making the difference.

M - 8 miles easy
T - rest (been suiting me better lately)
W - 2m WU/CD 8 mile tempo average 6:18/m
T - 8 miles easy
F - 2m WU/CD 3x2m (12:18, 11:58, 12:12) 3 min recovery
S - 8 miles easy
S - 16 miles, 7:30 average, last mile 6:32 in 20 degree temperature

62.5 miles for the week

So now I cut back a bit and let the body heal. Feel happy with training and feeling full of energy
Think I’m well set up to run well in Belfast. Of course variables on the day could cost me but training been good

Couple of nice sessions in there S. Have been doing some quite similar sessions in my Limerick HM training recently. 3x2 Miles, 8 Mile Tempos.....you feeling confident? The Belfast course has changed this year yeah?

squinn2912 · 21-04-2019 6:40pm

healy1835 wrote: »

Couple of nice sessions in there S. Have been doing some quite similar sessions in my Limerick HM training recently. 3x2 Miles, 8 Mile Tempos.....you feeling confident? The Belfast course has changed this year yeah?

Thanks buddy. I probably went 5-10 seconds quicker than intended but I felt good throughout the week. When is Limerick? Yea I feel confident I’ve pushed myself hard. Weather could be tough and I don’t tend to do well in heat but I’ll see how that goes. Yep it’s flatter anyhow!

squinn2912 · 05-05-2019 7:23pm

Belfast marathon done today. 2:55:29 on watch. Measured 26.7 and talk of adjustment being made officially. Lead car went out wrong (incredibly). With the adjustment I should be in on 2:53 so new pb pending

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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