Border Poll discussion

downcow · 11-04-2019 5:43pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That doesn't back up your claims. You're generalising again. Most of us are open to discussing compromises. The thread is based on a 'what if'. Unionists have a right to say what is and isn't acceptable, as do the rest, that's what the discussion is. You claim it's all 'my way or the highway' on one side.

You won’t say what compromise you want from unionists?

James Brown · 11-04-2019 5:45pm

downcow wrote: »

Where in my post can you see I have any issue with Irish language.
If you can tolerate our flags up in nationalist areas then we will tolerate you signs up in our areas. I’m all for compromise. Just also like equality

That's tit for tat not equality. Equality would be the Irish language holding same as English, like they do in the Republic. That would be a compromise. I don't agree with throwing in Ulster Scots to the mix, but if that's what the people want so be it.

James Brown · 11-04-2019 5:46pm

downcow wrote: »

You won’t say what compromise you want from unionists?

Not sure what angle you're taking here. He suggested it's all no compromise on the side of those seeking a UI. I disagree.
There is nothing I would want Unionists to compromise on that won't be taking care of under a United Ireland, language equality, civil rights for same sex couples, accepting climate change as a thing, abortion etc.. They can continue to use any flag they like and have parades as long as peaceful and law abiding IMO. Frankly I'm happy for the Chinese to do it, why not the Ulster-Scots or Unionists?

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 5:49pm

downcow wrote: »

Where in my post can you see I have any issue with Irish language.
If you can tolerate our flags up in nationalist areas then we will tolerate you signs up in our areas. I’m all for compromise. Just also like equality

They are not 'my' signs and it isn't about signs in your area that irritate you.

The Irish language belongs to all the people of this island, it is a part of them, even if they deny it, you cannot have a conversation without using words that derive from it.

It is not the same as mindless taunting with flags and signs.

downcow · 11-04-2019 5:58pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Not sure what angle you're taking here. He suggested it's all no compromise on the side of those seeking a UI. I disagree.
There is nothing I would want Unionists to compromise on that won't be taking care of under a United Ireland, language equality, civil rights for same sex couples, accepting climate change as a thing, abortion etc.. They can continue to use any flag they like and have parades as long as peaceful and law abiding IMO. Frankly I'm happy for the Chinese to do it, why not the Ulster-Scots or Unionists?

Thanks Matt. And I can assure you most unionists are keen to embrace same sex marriage.
It would be an amazing gesture if you were going to ensure Ulster Scots parades could get back into their traditional routes. But I agree with you that it is crazy they can’t march

downcow · 11-04-2019 6:01pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are not 'my' signs and it isn't about signs in your area that irritate you.

The Irish language belongs to all the people of this island, it is a part of them, even if they deny it, you cannot have a conversation without using words that derive from it.

It is not the same as mindless taunting with flags and signs.

The British culture and union flag is part of your history even if you deny it. Whether it be the British tv you watch, the British football teams like Celtic that you support, the British music you listen to.

votecounts · 11-04-2019 6:05pm

downcow wrote: »

Thanks Matt. And I can assure you most unionists are keen to embrace same sex marriage.
It would be an amazing gesture if you were going to ensure Ulster Scots parades could get back into their traditional routes. But I agree with you that it is crazy they can’t march

Last thing we need is more parades. Under an UI, a lot of parades should go the way of the dodo.

facehugger99 · 11-04-2019 6:11pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Irish language belongs to all the people of this island, it is a part of them, even if they deny it, you cannot have a conversation without using words that derive from it.

Like Latin so.

Maybe we should make that compulsory too?

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 6:15pm

downcow wrote: »

The British culture and union flag is part of your history even if you deny it. Whether it be the British tv you watch, the British football teams like Celtic that you support, the British music you listen to.

And I have never denied the British heritage here. In fact I work voluntarily to preserve a part of it. (architectural)

What you cannot seem to grasp is that acceptance is NOT a license for you or unionists to taunt or provoke others.
I know King Billy won a battle, and it is part of my history, I just do not sanction somebody using that to taunt and triumphalise.

You, in your email to Nolan, are an advocate of further entrenching the problem by ring fencing parts of all our culture and heritage and making them separate enclaves almost. You are not the 'moderate' you pretend to be.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 6:16pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Like Latin so.

Maybe we should make that compulsory too?

Once upon a time it was. And you cannot speak English and deny it's connection.

I am not in favour of compulsory Irish btw.

Frank Castle · 11-04-2019 6:23pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And I have never denied the British heritage here. In fact I work voluntarily to preserve a part of it. (architectural)

What you cannot seem to grasp is that acceptance is NOT a license for you or unionists to taunt or provoke others.
I know King Billy won a battle, and it is part of my history, I just do not sanction somebody using that to taunt and triumphalise.

You, in your email to Nolan, are an advocate of further entrenching the problem by ring fencing parts of all our culture and heritage and making them separate enclaves almost. You are not the 'moderate' you pretend to be.

as a moderate unionist myself, I can assure you, he is definitely not moderate

RobMc59 · 11-04-2019 6:33pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I would suggest similar discussions would need take place during any consultation period.
You appear to be biased and not seeing what I'm seeing obviously.

Well yes-I am biased,the same as you I don’t see it the same as you-I see it as a threat to unionist traditions and way of life.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 6:34pm

Frank Castle wrote: »

as a moderate unionist myself, I can assure you, he is definitely not moderate

The email to Nolan was the clincher for me. He is somebody who wants to exacerbate the problems and further define the divisions. Not helpful tbh.

Frank Castle · 11-04-2019 6:39pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The email to Nolan was the clincher for me. He is somebody who wants to exacerbate the problems and further define the divisions. Not helpful tbh.

for me it was his response when i suggested banning all bonfires as a compromise (planet wins too)
* I don't know any adult moderate unionist who cares about bonfires. They were good fun but wont be missed by most of us tbh

downcow · 11-04-2019 6:56pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Like Latin so.

Maybe we should make that compulsory too?

I had to learn Latin in first form. Hated it and all I learnt in my entire year was.
Ecce ecce Romani Translates I think as look look Romans. I scored 3/100 in my exam. So I’m with you on this one francie.

downcow · 11-04-2019 7:00pm

Frank Castle wrote: »

as a moderate unionist myself, I can assure you, he is definitely not moderate

Interesting frank. I wouldn’t dare try to put you in a box.
I don’t want to bore you with my cv but I would class myself as a moderate liberal northern Irish guy. I’m not even that comfortable with unionist label but wouldn’t deny it’s my heritage.
I am interested what you think makes you moderate and me not. - that’s a serious question?

James Brown · 11-04-2019 7:03pm

downcow wrote: »

Thanks Matt. And I can assure you most unionists are keen to embrace same sex marriage.
It would be an amazing gesture if you were going to ensure Ulster Scots parades could get back into their traditional routes. But I agree with you that it is crazy they can’t march

But wouldn't that go against the parades commission? Are you confusing Ulster Scots heritage with politics? I get the feeling you're looking to score points. Surely there's more to Ulster Scots heritage than the battle of the Boyne or what have you? To paraphrase Alan Partridge, surely 'dere's more to (northern) Ireland den dis'?

downcow wrote: »

The British culture and union flag is part of your history even if you deny it. Whether it be the British tv you watch, the British football teams like Celtic that you support, the British music you listen to.

Ah, see I agree it is. I choose not to celebrate it, because I don't see what there is to celebrate about it. You are free to do so in my book if you hold it fondly, that's your right IMO. Don't follow football or G.A.A. I do like British bands and musicians like John Lennon, Paul McCartney, ('Give Ireland back to the Irish') Steven Morrissey, Andy Rourke and the like

downcow · 11-04-2019 7:03pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The email to Nolan was the clincher for me. He is somebody who wants to exacerbate the problems and further define the divisions. Not helpful tbh.

I am surprised what you found difficult in the email. I guess the clarity and fairness is a struggle for you.
And my hope would be in that scenario that lots of parties would use their money to reach out to minority cultures. But I gues it wouldn’t set Irish above everything else so I guess you would struggle with it.

James Brown · 11-04-2019 7:05pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Like Latin so.

Maybe we should make that compulsory too?

See we don't live in Latin and we aren't Latin. Irish is your heritage and culture. You don't have to celebrate it. Latin, to the extent that it's used in some English words too I suppose.

jm08 · 11-04-2019 7:06pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The really strange aspect of this is that Ulster Irish died out. The last native speakers died during the 1980s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"The last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[9] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[10] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[11] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[12] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[13] Sus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

The Irish now spoken in Northern Ireland is imported from Donegal Irish. Ironically, it is nearly as much an imported or reinvented language as Ulster-Scots.

Donegal is an Ulster county where they speak Ulster Irish. How can you import Ulster Irish from one Ulster county to another?

downcow · 11-04-2019 7:06pm

Frank Castle wrote: »

for me it was his response when i suggested banning all bonfires as a compromise (planet wins too)
* I don't know any adult moderate unionist who cares about bonfires. They were good fun but wont be missed by most of us tbh

I will find it again if you don’t believe me but when I was on google yesterday I noted the reputable ni life and times study found that the majority of all people in ni agreed or strongly agreed that bonfires were a legitimate cultural expression. And unionist figure was a huge majority. So I think you are niave if you think your position is representative

James Brown · 11-04-2019 7:07pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Well yes-I am biased,the same as you I don’t see it the same as you-I see it as a threat to unionist traditions and way of life.

Yeah that's a shame. I don't see that on here and you've not shown it but you can believe it's the case I suppose.
Can you cite these 'threats'?

downcow · 11-04-2019 7:09pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

But wouldn't that go against the parades commission? Are you confusing Ulster Scots heritage with politics? I get the feeling you're looking to score points. Surely there's more to Ulster Scots heritage than the battle of the Boyne or what have you? To paraphrase Alan Partridge, surely 'dere's more to (northern) Ireland den dis'?

Ah, see I agree it is. I choose not to celebrate it, because I don't see what there is to celebrate about it. You are free to do so in my book if you hold it fondly, that's your right IMO.

I think we could do business Matt. Wouldn’t be easy but I sense compromise would be possible

Frank Castle · 11-04-2019 7:11pm

downcow wrote: »

Interesting frank. I wouldn’t dare try to put you in a box.
I don’t want to bore you with my cv but I would class myself as a moderate liberal northern Irish guy. I’m not even that comfortable with unionist label but wouldn’t deny it’s my heritage.
I am interested what you think makes you moderate and me not. - that’s a serious question?

In fairness if I am being honest I would say you are moderate for someone who still lives up home in the north. I'm not going to lie, my opinion only changed to what it is now after having moved to mayo.
Compared to myself I wouldn't call you moderate, but that may be an unfair comparison as I have a very different experience with nationalists down here (Nationalists back home are nothing like the nationalists here)

downcow · 11-04-2019 7:13pm

Frank Castle wrote: »

In fairness if I am being honest I would say you are moderate for someone who still lives up home in the north. I'm not going to lie, my opinion only changed to what it is now after having moved to mayo.
Compared to myself I wouldn't call you moderate, but that may be an unfair comparison as I have a very different experience with nationalists down here (Nationalists back home are nothing like the nationalists here)

That’s all very interesting but my question was. “I am interested what you think makes you moderate and me not.”

James Brown · 11-04-2019 7:42pm

downcow wrote: »

I think we could do business Matt. Wouldn’t be easy but I sense compromise would be possible

I've distant relations of both persuasions in Belfast and Tyrone, so I'm a little bias as regards each to their own

What size will I put you down for an Aran sweater?

McMurphy · 11-04-2019 7:49pm

jm08 wrote: »

Donegal is an Ulster county where they speak Ulster Irish. How can you import Ulster Irish from one Ulster county to another?

I was just about to post something similar, I'm reminded of an hysterical Ian Paisley making the same kind of silly rant during the early 00s foot and mouth disease outbreak in the north when he furiously stood in front of the news crew camera exclaiming that Brid Rodgers should "Keep her nose out of Ulster's affairs, and go back to Donegal where she belongs".

RobMc59 · 11-04-2019 7:52pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yeah that's a shame. I don't see that on here and you've not shown it but you can believe it's the case I suppose.
Can you cite these 'threats'?

My opinion is only as a British unionist who finds republicans saying what is and is`nt acceptable in the event of a UI at this early stage as threats-I`m sure others would see it like that too.
Anyway,what`s the big rush-it does`nt seem many in NI are clamouring for a poll?

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 7:55pm

downcow wrote: »

I am surprised what you found difficult in the email. I guess the clarity and fairness is a struggle for you.
And my hope would be in that scenario that lots of parties would use their money to reach out to minority cultures. But I gues it wouldn’t set Irish above everything else so I guess you would struggle with it.

No person who claims to work with both communities would ever suggest what you did in the email nor would any moderate I know.

What you suggest in your desperate attempt to keep aspects of our culture apart was to further compartmentalise them.

That is DUP isolationism all over. Never Never Never integrate or accept the other side.

You are so long feeling under siege you have a warped sense of what 'culture' actually is or represents.

RobMc59 · 11-04-2019 9:21pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No person who claims to work with both communities would ever suggest what you did in the email nor would any moderate I know.

What you suggest in your desperate attempt to keep aspects of our culture apart was to further compartmentalise them.

That is DUP isolationism all over. Never Never Never integrate or accept the other side.

You are so long feeling under siege you have a warped sense of what 'culture' actually is or represents.

Personally I`d accept a UI referendum if that`s what the people of NI wanted but until they do you can`t attack people`s personal views which is what you are doing.In addition,you are very set in your ways yourself and unwilling to accept the views of others which makes your faux outrage astonishing.

Border Poll discussion

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