Border Poll discussion

McMurphy · 11-04-2019 9:34am

Step aside, temporarily and without prejudice to facilitate the independent inquiry ref the RHI scandal? No.

blanch152 · 11-04-2019 10:25am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You only have to look at the list of 'No's' from the belligerent no compromise Never Never wing of Unionism:

Anglo Irish Agreement = No
The Good Friday Agreement = No
Extend equal status to those who identify as Irish (language rights etc) = No
Invitation to partake on numerous 'shared future' fora = No
Invitation to commemorate our various centenaries = No
Invitation to discuss the shared problems and/or opportunities of Brexit = No

That's just of the top of my head.
Compromise?

You can look at the past and ask about who compromised, or you can look at the future and ask who is not willing to compromise?

Farawayhome wrote: »

Ban all bonfires - Drama sorted
Change the flag into one all are happy with - Drama sorted
Irish is not a Nationalist language, it's the language of this island which was and is learned by unionists also - Drama sorted
Parades be they unionist or nationalist should only go on streets where they are wanted - Drama sorted.

Welcome to a United Ireland.

This is only one example of where there has been little or no compromise on a future United Ireland. There are many others on this thread and in public discourse. Such an attitude does little to help advance the issue.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 10:37am

blanch152 wrote: »

You can look at the past and ask about who compromised, or you can look at the future and ask who is not willing to compromise?

The past?

I understand that partitionists and some unionists would like it put aside when it suits their agendas, but there is nothing 'past' about the GFA, nor is there anything past about:
Extend equal status to those who identify as Irish (language rights etc)
Invitation to partake on numerous 'shared future' fora,
Invitation to commemorate our various centenaries,
Invitation to discuss the shared problems and/or opportunities of Brexit.

RobMc59 · 11-04-2019 12:11pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The past?

I understand that partitionists and some unionists would like it put aside when it suits their agendas, but there is nothing 'past' about the GFA, nor is there anything past about:
Extend equal status to those who identify as Irish (language rights etc)
Invitation to partake on numerous 'shared future' fora,
Invitation to commemorate our various centenaries,
Invitation to discuss the shared problems and/or opportunities of Brexit.

As blanch has pointed out some here choose to harp on about the past and when discussing the future for Ireland want everything their own way-before a referendum has even been proposed they are settling down red lines and spitting their dummies out if others have the audacity to disagree.

Junkyard Tom · 11-04-2019 12:11pm

"Northern Ireland electricity grid can now be run from state-owned Dublin control room"

newsletter.co.uk/news

The soft unification of Ireland continues. Like Britain's inability to withdraw from the EU without inflicting serious self-harm the hard re-partition of Ireland will become practically impossible in time, and literally impossible politically.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 12:20pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

As blanch has pointed out some here choose to harp on about the past and when discussing the future for Ireland want everything their own way-before a referendum has even been proposed they are settling down red lines and spitting their dummies out if others have the audacity to disagree.

This is ridiculous.
The supporters of a UI here have indicated they are willing to compromise on flags, anthems, marching, as long as it is respectful and non triumphalist, they will respect the identity of unionists also.

In contrast, when asked what they would be willing to compromise on, unionists say, nothing at all.

And none of the items on my list, refers exclusively to the past - they are all ongoing reactions equaling NO - Never- No surrender...etc etc etc.

RobMc59 · 11-04-2019 12:26pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

"Northern Ireland electricity grid can now be run from state-owned Dublin control room"

newsletter.co.uk/news

The soft unification of Ireland continues. Like Britain's inability to withdraw from the EU without inflicting serious self-harm the hard re-partition of Ireland will become practically impossible in time, and literally impossible politically.

Surely that's a good thing about the electricity grid for all concerned?-what would be a big mistake would be to think anyone was 'over a barrel'.

blanch152 · 11-04-2019 12:26pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is ridiculous.
The supporters of a UI here have indicated they are willing to compromise on flags, anthems, marching, as long as it is respectful and non triumphalist, they will respect the identity of unionists also.

In contrast, when asked what they would be willing to compromise on, unionists say, nothing at all.

And none of the items on my list, refers exclusively to the past - they are all ongoing reactions equaling NO - Never- No surrender...etc etc etc.

I really don't think you understand.

A united Ireland needs tacit acceptance from unionists. That is a huge compromise, beyond any of the things that you have suggested that nationalists are prepared to compromise on.

You have also left out some of the more important issues that need compromises from the nationalist side such as compulsory Irish which absolutely must go in a united Ireland.

facehugger99 · 11-04-2019 12:40pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You have also left out some of the more important issues that need compromises from the nationalist side such as compulsory Irish which absolutely must go in a united Ireland.

We really shouldn't be waiting for a mythical UI to remove compulsory Irish from the curriculum.

Although, in fairness, it's reasonably easy to get exemptions for your kids if you know the right approach, which obviously frees up the time to study something useful.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 12:54pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I really don't think you understand.

A united Ireland needs tacit acceptance from unionists. That is a huge compromise, beyond any of the things that you have suggested that nationalists are prepared to compromise on.

You have also left out some of the more important issues that need compromises from the nationalist side such as compulsory Irish which absolutely must go in a united Ireland.

So the majority vote for a UI and that is all that is required of unionists?
The onus will be on all democrats to build a new united future. That will require compromise from both sides.

The UIers have clearly stated what compromises they are willing to make but all partitionists and unionists seem willing to do is state their redlines.

As to compulsory Irish, I for one have no problem with that. Compulsory Irish is a failed experiment in supporting the language. It is much more productive to enshrine it as equal and to fund those who wish to speak it and use it.

I am of the opinion it is just a stick for some belligerent unionists to wield anyhow, as none of them here have shown how it damages or dilutes their identity ot how it is a threat to it.

downcow · 11-04-2019 1:30pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Extend equal status to those who identify as Irish (language rights etc)

Unionist have been asking for years what does this mean?
Give us a few examples of what you would like that doesn’t currently happen?

downcow · 11-04-2019 1:32pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is ridiculous.
The supporters of a UI here have indicated they are willing to compromise on flags, anthems, marching, as long as it is respectful and non triumphalist, they will respect the identity of unionists also.

In contrast, when asked what they would be willing to compromise on, unionists say, nothing at all.

And none of the items on my list, refers exclusively to the past - they are all ongoing reactions equaling NO - Never- No surrender...etc etc etc.

Give us a few examples of what you would like unionists to compromise on?

downcow · 11-04-2019 1:43pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is ridiculous.
The supporters of a UI here have indicated they are willing to compromise on flags, anthems, marching, as long as it is respectful and non triumphalist, they will respect the identity of unionists also.

In contrast, when asked what they would be willing to compromise on, unionists say, nothing at all.

I have no problem whatsover reciprocating these gestures as they are hardly very challenging.
i.e. I am willing to compromise on flags, anthems, marching, as long as it is respectful and non triumphalist, I will respect the identity of nationalists also.

anything else you would like?

.and i think i would be happy with not flying my flag or playing my anthem where it upsets you if you can reciprocate that to?
and i'll also not put up Ulster-Scots signs where you don't want them if you agree to not put up Irish signs where i don't want them

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 1:44pm

downcow wrote: »

Unionist have been asking for years what does this mean?
Give us a few examples of what you would like that doesn’t currently happen?

The key issue is in the brackets.

Unionists need to live up to the commitments within the GFA, under rights and parity of esteem. Because you object to it as a single political party is not an excuse for blocking them.

Until they are instigated, there is not 'equal status'.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 1:53pm

downcow wrote: »

I have no problem whatsover reciprocating these gestures as they are hardly very challenging.
i.e. I am willing to compromise on flags, anthems, marching, as long as it is respectful and non triumphalist, I will respect the identity of nationalists also.

anything else you would like?

.and i think i would be happy with not flying my flag or playing my anthem where it upsets you if you can reciprocate that to?
and i'll also not put up Ulster-Scots signs where you don't want them if you agree to not put up Irish signs where i don't want them

Before I answer this, can you tell us, what your problem is with the Irish language?
Is it a threat? An insult to you? Or is it just that it irritates you so much, you cannot even look at it, or accept that some might get value from it?

James Brown · 11-04-2019 2:09pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are correct-some posters idea of 'compromise'appears to be-'do as we say and don't be awkward!'

RobMc59 wrote: »

As blanch has pointed out some here choose to harp on about the past and when discussing the future for Ireland want everything their own way-before a referendum has even been proposed they are settling down red lines and spitting their dummies out if others have the audacity to disagree.

You've been reading a different thread to me. You keep coming in with sweeping generalisations like this. I think you're choosing not to understand the points many are making. Maybe you could quote a few?

downcow · 11-04-2019 4:05pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Before I answer this, can you tell us, what your problem is with the Irish language?
Is it a threat? An insult to you? Or is it just that it irritates you so much, you cannot even look at it, or accept that some might get value from it?

I think most in unionist community (including myself) see Irish signage exactly the same as the flags you mention above.
ie nationalists see it as their culture. It is very dear to many representing something of their identity and they enjoy seeing it displayed. Others of course like to use it to antagonise their neighbours from writing chuckie ar la on unioinst property to demanding it on goverment materials.
All of this applies just the same to flags on lamp posts.

...and of course both very effectively mark territory as you travel around NI

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 4:30pm

downcow wrote: »

I think most in unionist community (including myself) see Irish signage exactly the same as the flags you mention above.
ie nationalists see it as their culture. It is very dear to many representing something of their identity and they enjoy seeing it displayed. Others of course like to use it to antagonise their neighbours from writing chuckie ar la on unioinst property to demanding it on goverment materials.
All of this applies just the same to flags on lamp posts.

...and of course both very effectively mark territory as you travel around NI

So you cannot get above spite and being taunted by a tiny minority and see the importance of the language to those who value it.

That is an unwillingness to compromise, no matter how you phrase it.

There will be, as there exists now, no way to stop the ignorant and the mindless from taunting and provocation, on both sides.
What we will have to do is move on without them and hope they catch up.

On that basis, I see no real reason for an objection to the Irish language.

Farawayhome · 11-04-2019 4:35pm

I think we should just take over Northern Ireland. Remove many of them from their homes and land and replace them with Nationalists. After a while, we will award control of Northern Ireland to the Nationalists. They will be allowed to treat unionists as second class citizens. Sounds reasonable?

James Brown · 11-04-2019 4:57pm

downcow wrote: »

I think most in unionist community (including myself) see Irish signage exactly the same as the flags you mention above.
ie nationalists see it as their culture. It is very dear to many representing something of their identity and they enjoy seeing it displayed. Others of course like to use it to antagonise their neighbours from writing chuckie ar la on unioinst property to demanding it on goverment materials.
All of this applies just the same to flags on lamp posts.

...and of course both very effectively mark territory as you travel around NI

TBF, 'Ulster' and the red hand symbol are used by terrorists and as part of Ulster/Unionist/Irish heritage and culture. As with flags and language, we choose how we want to perceive them to a certain extent. The vast majority of people see Irish language as what it is a language associated with Ireland. Any criminal element or terrorist would also use English but we accept that as okay and give no negative connotations to it.

blanch152 · 11-04-2019 4:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As to compulsory Irish, I for one have no problem with that. Compulsory Irish is a failed experiment in supporting the language. It is much more productive to enshrine it as equal and to fund those who wish to speak it and use it.

The really strange aspect of this is that Ulster Irish died out. The last native speakers died during the 1980s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"The last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[9] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[10] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[11] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[12] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[13] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

The Irish now spoken in Northern Ireland is imported from Donegal Irish. Ironically, it is nearly as much an imported or reinvented language as Ulster-Scots.

RobMc59 · 11-04-2019 5:06pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You've been reading a different thread to me. You keep coming in with sweeping generalisations like this. I think you're choosing not to understand the points many are making. Maybe you could quote a few?

Apart from the same tired old waffle being trundled out by SF and a few posters on here trying to spin it up, is there really any appetite for a UI at the moment?That's not to say the people of NI might consider a referendum in the future.But it is alarming that before any of that has happened there are people wanting to say what is and isn't acceptable-smacks of condescending preaching to me.

James Brown · 11-04-2019 5:14pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apart from the same tired old waffle being trundled out by SF and a few posters on here trying to spin it up, is there really any appetite for a UI at the moment?That's not to say the people of NI might consider a referendum in the future.But it is alarming that before any of that has happened there are people wanting to say what is and isn't acceptable-smacks of condescending preaching to me.

That doesn't back up your claims. You're generalising again. Most of us are open to discussing compromises. The thread is based on a 'what if'. Unionists have a right to say what is and isn't acceptable, as do the rest, that's what the discussion is. You claim it's all 'my way or the highway' on one side.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2019 5:16pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The really strange aspect of this is that Ulster Irish died out. The last native speakers died during the 1980s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"The last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[9] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[10] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[11] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[12] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[13] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

The Irish now spoken in Northern Ireland is imported from Donegal Irish. Ironically, it is nearly as much an imported or reinvented language as Ulster-Scots.

What is your point here? That it cannot be spoken, or promoted or re-generated because it died out?

Incredible lack of understanding between you and downcow as to what 'culture' is.
It doesn't belong to one particular sect or community.

The orange tradition is as much part of my culture as Irish is a part of yours and downcow's.

Just because it rankles you or annoys you, doesn't make it not a part of you.

What we need to do in a UI is weed out the toxic and bad elements of all our culture.

downcow in his ridiculous email to the Nolan show demonstrates quite clearly how he is not the moderate he thinks he is.
Now you display it too, in a rather pathetic attempt to excuse giving the Irish language the status it deserves and requires.

*btw, like many others I object to placing Ulster Scots on a par with English and Irish. It is a dialect, and quite simply does not have the sophistication and complexity of either of the other two.

But I understand why unionists need to hold on to it, so no problem accommodating that.

James Brown · 11-04-2019 5:17pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The really strange aspect of this is that Ulster Irish died out. The last native speakers died during the 1980s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"The last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century. Irish as spoken in Counties Down[9] and Fermanagh were the first to die out, but native speakers of varieties spoken in the Glens of Antrim[10] and the Sperrin Mountains of County Tyrone[11] and County Londonderry survived into the 1950s and 1970s respectively, whilst the Armagh dialect survived until the 1930s or '40s.[12] Varieties of Irish indigenous to the territory of Northern Ireland finally became extinct when the last native speaker of Rathlin Irish died in 1985.[13] Séamus Bhriain Mac Amhlaigh, who died in 1983, was reportedly the last native-speaker of Antrim Irish."

The Irish now spoken in Northern Ireland is imported from Donegal Irish. Ironically, it is nearly as much an imported or reinvented language as Ulster-Scots.

Do you think how the British treated it had any impact or was it more natural? Languages grow, change, borrow from others. It's a natural process. How ever you or I may feel about Ulster-Scots, it's not for us to tell others what their culture should be.

RobMc59 · 11-04-2019 5:22pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That doesn't back up your claims. You're generalising again. Most of us are open to discussing compromises. The thread is based on a 'what if'. Unionists have a right to say what is and isn't acceptable, as do the rest, that's what the discussion is. You claim it's all 'my way or the highway' on one side.

The thread is about,as you say-is there a possibility of a border poll-not people saying what is and isn't acceptable prior to any consultation taking place.I haven't heard much here that would reassure worried unionists their traditions and way of life wouldn't be riden over roughshod by over zealous republicans.

James Brown · 11-04-2019 5:38pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

The thread is about,as you say-is there a possibility of a border poll-not people saying what is and isn't acceptable prior to any consultation taking place.I haven't heard much here that would reassure worried unionists their traditions and way of life wouldn't be riden over roughshod by over zealous republicans.

I would suggest similar discussions would need take place during any consultation period.
You appear to be biased and not seeing what I'm seeing obviously.

downcow · 11-04-2019 5:38pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

I think we should just take over Northern Ireland. Remove many of them from their homes and land and replace them with Nationalists. After a while, we will award control of Northern Ireland to the Nationalists. They will be allowed to treat unionists as second class citizens. Sounds reasonable?

And then the unionists will form a paramilitary sectarian gang and set about killing you all. I think that’s been tried!

downcow · 11-04-2019 5:40pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you cannot get above spite and being taunted by a tiny minority and see the importance of the language to those who value it.

That is an unwillingness to compromise, no matter how you phrase it.

There will be, as there exists now, no way to stop the ignorant and the mindless from taunting and provocation, on both sides.
What we will have to do is move on without them and hope they catch up.

On that basis, I see no real reason for an objection to the Irish language.

Where in my post can you see I have any issue with Irish language.
If you can tolerate our flags up in nationalist areas then we will tolerate you signs up in our areas. I’m all for compromise. Just also like equality

downcow · 11-04-2019 5:41pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

TBF, 'Ulster' and the red hand symbol are used by terrorists and as part of Ulster/Unionist/Irish heritage and culture. As with flags and language, we choose how we want to perceive them to a certain extent. The vast majority of people see Irish language as what it is a language associated with Ireland. Any criminal element or terrorist would also use English but we accept that as okay and give no negative connotations to it.

Agreed. So flags and language should be tolerated by all?

Border Poll discussion

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