Border Poll discussion

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Take a serious look at your prejudice with this planet nonsense.
The anti crowd have tried everything but this one is the biggest joke of all. It is nothing short of sectarian hatred of s culture that leads people to quote this reason.
Most of the kids involved in bonfires are form fairly disadvantaged areas. Most will never have boarded a plane and many will be in households with no car.
I am guessing you have a car and a holiday and probably go to watch the annual fireworks display or maybe air show. So get off your sectarian high horse and give these kids a break.
Honestly examine yourself and consider why you want the kids with the smallest carbon footprint and the least opportunities to stop the one big annual activity they love. I heard a kid on tv last year saying that Xmas comes second to the boney. You might not like that but try to be moderate and tolerant.

Have a look at these photos of bonfires for 12th. Do you think they are all fine?

https://www.google.com/search?q=bonfires+on+12th+july&safe=active&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1iPmtj8vhAhVeQxUIHSt2DHQQ_AUIDygC&biw=1361&bih=767#imgrc=5kq9TXRUbcxDnM:

I'm sure that a lot of the bonfires are fine and are not sectarian in nature, but there is a problem with some of them.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?
You said it in reply to a question I asked you 'on what you would do if there was a UI.'

So I’d be completely peaceful but I wouldn’t be part of you jolly Ireland project

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109890581&postcount=2169

Ok. Apologies. I was wrong. I did say that. It just sounded different out of context.
That’s one to you francie.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Have a look at these photos of bonfires for 12th. Do you think they are all fine?

https://www.google.com/search?q=bonfires+on+12th+july&safe=active&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1iPmtj8vhAhVeQxUIHSt2DHQQ_AUIDygC&biw=1361&bih=767#imgrc=5kq9TXRUbcxDnM:

I'm sure that a lot of the bonfires are fine and are not sectarian in nature, but there is a problem with some of them.

I just had a quick look and I dodnt see much wrong.
In case I missed something. I hate Irish flags being burnt on a minority of them. I have no problem with them being huge provided they are safe. I can tell you a fireworks display does not come close to one of those huge fires.
I hate sectarianism and they are lit at midnight and people pile out of the pubs to enjoy them. So inevitably everyone is not 100% behaved. But you could go to a roi football match or a Leinster rugby game and they are early evening and you’ll have no problem finding secatarian headcases

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I just had a quick look and I dodnt see much wrong.
In case I missed something. I hate Irish flags being burnt on a minority of them. I have no problem with them being huge provided they are safe. I can tell you a fireworks display does not come close to one of those huge fires.
I hate sectarianism and they are lit at midnight and people pile out of the pubs to enjoy them. So inevitably everyone is not 100% behaved. But you could go to a roi football match or a Leinster rugby game and they are early evening and you’ll have no problem finding secatarian headcases

Nothing wrong with Irish flags with KAT. Effigies of people in coffins being burnt, posters of politicians and football players. That isn't good stuff.

Then the proximity of the fires to building roads and the size of them! You can't see a problem with that, I think you are in complete denial that there are serious issues with some of them.

There is an article on Sluggerotoole on bonfires and the blogger mentions that traditionally, the kids collected the material for the bonfire and adults rarely got involved in their building and that there was competition between the different streets to build the biggest. Now this blogger says that adults are involved and city council is providing pallets, storing delivering them to the sites and tyres are being illegally burnt. Basically, no other country in the world would be allowed carry on like this with absolutely no regard to the environment or how they disrupt people living close to them.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

I just had a quick look and I dodnt see much wrong.
In case I missed something. I hate Irish flags being burnt on a minority of them. I have no problem with them being huge provided they are safe. I can tell you a fireworks display does not come close to one of those huge fires.
I hate sectarianism and they are lit at midnight and people pile out of the pubs to enjoy them. So inevitably everyone is not 100% behaved. But you could go to a roi football match or a Leinster rugby game and they are early evening and you’ll have no problem finding secatarian headcases

The effigies, flags and posters on bonfires, it's a bit of s stretch to expect anyone to swallow the line that it's in the minority of them, any I've ever been driving past of note had such things.

But worse than that, you try and liken the actions of sectarian louts at these (sectarian by nature bonfires) to that of Irish matches or Leinster matches?

Is this guy actually serious

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The effigies, flags and posters on bonfires, it's a bit of s stretch to expect anyone to swallow the line that it's in the minority of them, any I've ever been driving past of note had such things.

But worse than that, you try and liken the actions of sectarian louts at these (sectarian by nature bonfires) to that of Irish matches or Leinster matches?

Is this guy actually serious

This is exactly what I said Jonny
“you could go to a roi football match or a Leinster rugby game and they are early evening and you’ll have no problem finding secatarian headcases”
Do you disagree?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is exactly what I said Jonny
“you could go to a roi football match or a Leinster rugby game and they are early evening and you’ll have no problem finding secatarian headcases”
Do you disagree?

You are seriously comparing those events to the overt displays of racism and bigotry at bonfire night?

Are you actually living in northern Ireland?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

This is exactly what I said Jonny
“you could go to a roi football match or a Leinster rugby game and they are early evening and you’ll have no problem finding secatarian headcases”
Do you disagree?

There might be sectarian headcases at these games, but they will be told to shut up by people around them and be removed from the stadium (this actually happened at the Leinster v Ulster match a few weeks ago).

Not only that, the person was shamed on social media (his photo was circulated by someone who was at the match).

So, no, I don't think sectarianism will be tolerated down here.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

This is exactly what I said Jonny
“you could go to a roi football match or a Leinster rugby game and they are early evening and you’ll have no problem finding secatarian headcases”
Do you disagree?

Absolutely. 110%.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Absolutely. 110%.

We there is little point in trying to discuss with you if you are 110% sure there is no sectarian headcases roi or Leinster fans. You clearly feel it is only sectarianism when it comes from the other side.
I see even the poster before your post is saying there was sectarianism just two weeks ago at one of these events.
You need to open your eyes/ears

Junkyard Tom

Downcow, your postulations are a minefield of logical fallacies and obfuscation.

At a recent Ulster v Racing 92 match Simon Zebo was racially abused by a couple of Ulster 'fans'. Now, can we say Ulster fans are racists? No, because that would be bad logic - like yours.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Downcow, your postulations are a minefield of logical fallacies and obfuscation.

At a recent Ulster v Racing 92 match Simon Zebo was racially abused by a couple of Ulster 'fans'. Now, can we say Ulster fans are racists? No, because that would be bad logic - like yours.

Now we finally got there junkyard. It took a while mind you. I think you have now agreed
Leinster fans contain sectarian bigots but that does not mean they are all sectarian bigots
Ulster fans contain racists but that does not mean they are all racists
Roi fans contain sectarian bigots but that does not mean they are all sectarian bigots
Marchers and boney spectators contain sectarian bigots but that does not mean they are all sectarian bigots

Agreed. It’s the point I have being try to make for some time but you put it much more eloquently

.....and this line of yours sums it up so well. “No, because that would be bad logic - like yours”

So let’s try and employ you thinking going forward and it will be a much healthier discussion

volchitsa

downcow wrote: »

Now we finally got there junkyard. It took a while mind you. I think you have now agreed
Leinster fans contain sectarian bigots but that does not mean they are all sectarian bigots
Ulster fans contain racists but that does not mean they are all racists
Roi fans contain sectarian bigots but that does not mean they are all sectarian bigots
Marchers and boney spectators contain sectarian bigots but that does not mean they are all sectarian bigots

Agreed. It’s the point I have being try to make for some time but you put it much more eloquently

.....and this line of yours sums it up so well. “No, because that would be bad logic - like yours”

So let’s try and employ you thinking going forward and it will be a much healthier discussion

And now you're using the Donald Trump "There are lots of good people among white supremacists" line - another logical fallacy from you.

Football matches and sectarian parades cannot be compared to "prove" your claim because people at a match are mostly there to watch football. People at a sectarian march or a 12th bonfire are there to celebrate a sectarian event.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Marchers and boney spectators contain sectarian bigots but that does not mean they are all sectarian bigots

This is more obfuscation -- you're debating in bad faith. One or two bigots at a Rugby game is in no way comparable to an overtly bigoted/sectarian organisation like the Orange Order or an overtly bigoted event like a bonfire that burns symbols associated with another ethnicity/religion.

downcow

volchitsa wrote: »

And now you're using the Donald Trump "There are lots of good people among white supremacists" line - another logical fallacy from you.

Football matches and sectarian parades cannot be compared to "prove" your claim because people at a match are mostly there to watch football. People at a sectarian march or a 12th bonfire are there to celebrate a sectarian event.

I find it near impossible to continue along these lines. Half a dozen people on hear either don’t understand or are willfully misrepresenting orange and band parades.
Of course there is occasional sectarian stuff as there is at many events and of course there are flags that represent only one community as there is at gaa games.
I don’t know where you live but I would be happy to accompany you to a parade, as I have done with many catholics, and I think you like them will be pleasantly surprised (or unpleasantly if your agenda is to find sectarianism).
One of the problems is that some who hate parades only ever see them on the occasion they are passing interface areas and that brings together those on both sides who simply want agro.
Try and take a broader look at things.
I have gone to gaa games to try and dispel my prejudice about that organisations sectarianism

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

We there is little point in trying to discuss with you if you are 110% sure there is no sectarian headcases roi or Leinster fans. You clearly feel it is only sectarianism when it comes from the other side.
I see even the poster before your post is saying there was sectarianism just two weeks ago at one of these events.
You need to open your eyes/ears

Stop twisting my words, I never said there are no sectarian Leinster or Irish fans, and that's not what you asked me to agree to either, have you a short memory or what?

yourself wrote:

“you could go to a roi football match or a Leinster rugby game and they are early evening and you’ll have no problem finding secatarian headcases”
Do you disagree?

I 110% disagree.

No one is saying that there's no way some Irish or Leinster fans may be sectarian or bigoted, I was out for a pint last night in the local, there might well have been some sectarian bigots in the pub also, yet they weren't immediately jumping out at me as glaringly obvious.

There are sectarian, bigoted, racist, etc people in all walks of life, but it takes some scratching below the surface to expose some more than others.

So, I stand over what I disagree on, 110%. I could very well attend Leinster matches, or Irish matches for years on end without encountering a single instance of sectarian bigotry.

Attending an 11th of July night bonfire, (which in itself is lit as an act of bigotry or sectarianism) brings out the dregs of society annually who wish to openly display their bigoted and sectarian tendencies, from effigies, flags, posters on the bonfires, to the downright sectarian and bigoted chants and songs (a few yards back they even had a poster of a terminally ill child, because he was a Celtic fan for Christ sake)

You go off and think about what way you might twist those words, but you'll be at nothing.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

I find it near impossible to continue along these lines. Half a dozen people on hear either don’t understand or are willfully misrepresenting orange and band parades.
Of course there is occasional sectarian stuff as there is at many events and of course there are flags that represent only one community as there is at gaa games.
I don’t know where you live but I would be happy to accompany you to a parade, as I have done with many catholics, and I think you like them will be pleasantly surprised (or unpleasantly if your agenda is to find sectarianism).
One of the problems is that some who hate parades only ever see them on the occasion they are passing interface areas and that brings together those on both sides who simply want agro.
Try and take a broader look at things.
I have gone to gaa games to try and dispel my prejudice about that organisations sectarianism

There will undoubtedly be sectarian stuff going on at orange band parades.

The orange order is a sectarian organisation for Christ sake, and I think you're purposely choosing not to acknowledge this, as opposed to feigning naivety.

Stop trying to compare your sectarian organisation with sporing ones, it's doing you no favours either.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

There will undoubtedly be sectarian stuff going on at orange band parades.

The orange order is a sectarian organisation for Christ sake,
Stop trying to compare your sectarian organisation with sporing ones, it's doing you no favours either.

Jonny we are polls apart on these organisations but could I ask you a serious question that would help me understand where you are coming from.

Do you believe Protestants are more sectarian than Catholics?! And I use those religious labels very loosely

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

There will undoubtedly be sectarian stuff going on at orange band parades.

The orange order is a sectarian organisation for Christ sake, and I think you're purposely choosing not to acknowledge this, as opposed to feigning naivety.

Stop trying to compare your sectarian organisation with sporing ones, it's doing you no favours either.

There is one positive about the Orange Order and parades, while many go to parades the actual membership of the OO is falling year on year.

It just isn't compatible with modern life and a secular UI would only hasten that decline even more.
It (the OO) has almost collapsed totally in Scotland.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Jonny we are polls apart on these organisations but could I ask you a serious question that would help me understand where you are coming from.

We are polls apart because you either purposely refuse to acknowledge it, or are blinded by ignorance.

How can you possibly compare a sporting organisation, or sporting event with an organisation, whose sole purpose of existing is a sectarian one? You try and square that circle, but you'll fail.

Do you believe Protestants are more sectarian than Catholics?! And I use those religious labels very loosely

Again, this is exposing your own ignorance, of course I don't believe "protestants are more sectarian than Catholics"

Do I think Sikhs are more sectarian than Hindus?
Jews v Muslims?
Sunnis v Shiites?
Tutsis v Hutus?

Complete nonsense.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Jonny we are polls apart on these organisations

You are in denial. The Orange Order is a Protestant fraternity whose founding principle was to maintain Protestant domination.

This is very tedious.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You are in denial. The Orange Order is a Protestant fraternity whose founding principle was to maintain Protestant domination.

This is very tedious.

Maybe a suitable compromise would be to keep the parades but disband the archaic and sectarian OO?

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe a suitable compromise would be to keep the parades but disband the archaic and sectarian OO?

Contain it in the northeast of Ireland and leave them at it I reckon. Trying to ban anything to do with PUL culture will only feed into the historic siege mentality. The more the OO/Bonfires/Marching embarrasses itself the more people from a unionist background will distance themselves from it.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Contain it in the northeast of Ireland and leave them at it I reckon. Trying to ban anything to do with PUL culture will only feed into the historic siege mentality. The more the OO/Bonfires/Marching embarrasses itself the more people from a unionist background will distance themselves from it.

Membership has more than halved in 50 years which does indicate the existence of a sizable moderate Unionism.

I wouldn't be so easy on them. It is the only organisation on this island with an avowedly sectarian charter or constitution.

downcow

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We are polls apart because you either purposely refuse to acknowledge it, or are blinded by ignorance.

How can you possibly compare a sporting organisation, or sporting event with an organisation, whose sole purpose of existing is a sectarian one? You try and square that circle, but you'll

Again, this is exposing your own ignorance, of course I don't believe "protestants are more sectarian than Catholics"

Do I think Sikhs are more sectarian than Hindus?
Jews v Muslims?
Sunnis v Shiites?
Tutsis v Hutus?

Complete nonsense.

Thanks I appreciate that straight answer. I didn’t think you had it in you to answer a question without another question.

One more question. Do you think unionists are more sectarian than nationalists?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Thanks I appreciate that straight answer. I didn’t think you had it in you to answer a question without another question.

One more question. Do you think unionists are more sectarian than nationalists?

More to the point, what are we meant to think of those who support the OO downcow?

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Thanks I appreciate that straight answer. I didn’t think you had it in you to answer a question without another question.

Why? I don't believe I've a habit of answering your questions with another question, but whatever floats your boat.

One more question. Do you think unionists are more sectarian than nationalists?

The irony.

I have already answered this question, only it was a Catholic v protestants one.

It's like asking me if white folk are more racist than black folk? Of course they aren't.

Are members of the KKK more racist than non members of the white (and black) communities? Um at a guess, I'd say yeah.

Can you see how your questions make no sense in the context they're asked?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More to the point, what are we meant to think of those who support the OO downcow?

I don’t think you should think anything in particular about someone who supports the orange order. I am more interested i what you do think of them?

downcow

I think if we have learnt anything from Jonny’s cryptic posts it is that we should not make sweeping assumptions of people because of the organisations they belong to.
And I am with him 100% on that

A persons culture and identity is like an onion there is many layers to it

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Do you think unionists are more sectarian than nationalists?

One second there. Isn't Protestantism, the religion of the vast majority of Unionists, scripturally anti-Catholic?