AGS to allow members to wear religous and ethnic garb while on duty

Sonics2k · 04-04-2019 12:08PM

Yurt! wrote: »

If turban or hijab wearing Gardai start proselytizing on the job or refusing to perform their duties you'll have my attention.

Until then I'll go off the experience of Canada/UK/NZ where thousands of turban and hijab wearers serve their communities with distinction.

Once these individuals take their oath and fulfill their duties to the best of their ability (and I bet they will) I'm not bellyaching.

It really comes down to this. So long as the Gardai involved in this still actively do their jobs and don't allow their own personal religious beliefs to directly impact their day to day duties, then I have no issue with this.

We have hundreds of Doctors and Nurses who can wear hjibs and turbans, and it doesn't impact their work. Once it does, and say they refuse to do a blood transfusion for a patient because it impacts their religious beliefs, then we have a real problem.

red petal · 04-04-2019 12:10PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So we can identify them. Do you really need that explained to you? Now tell me what difference it would make if that uniform included a hijab or a turban?

People know or assume their religion! You hardly needed that explained, did you?

To further elaborate, people promoting any sort of religion is a point for conflict and of no use to the public that they are serving.

Hope that simplifies it for you.

ohnonotgmail · 04-04-2019 12:10PM

red petal wrote: »

And the most identifiable uniform is one that is the same on everybody. The best way to have confidence in our force is knowing that we all have the same objective- to keep people safe and look out for their interests.

A neutral uniform does just that. There are no clash of view or beliefs and not one reason to know their personal beliefs.

The only belief that we need to know from them is that they all have the same priorities as people serving the public.

I hate to break it to you but the garda uniform already comprises several different sets of clothing that dont always look the same. You seem to take the word uniform far too literally.

ohnonotgmail · 04-04-2019 12:11PM

red petal wrote: »

People know or assume their religion! You hardly needed that explained, did you?

To further elaborate, people promoting any sort of religion is a point for conflict and of no use to the public that they are serving.

Hope that simplifies it for you.

Wearing a turban or a hijab is not 'promoting' religion.

red petal · 04-04-2019 12:14PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but the garda uniform already comprises several different sets of clothing that dont always look the same. You seem to take the word uniform far too literally.

I'm well aware of that. None of which requires us to know what they like to to in their spare time, practice religion, which team they support, which political party they support. It has nothing to do with their role.

ohnonotgmail · 04-04-2019 12:15PM

red petal wrote: »

I'm well aware of that. None of which requires us to know what they like to to in their spare time, practice religion, which team they support, which political party they support. It has nothing to do with their role.

and it also do not affect how they do their job. at all. Seems to be a case of them funny brown people again.

red petal · 04-04-2019 12:16PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but the garda uniform already comprises several different sets of clothing that dont always look the same. You seem to take the word uniform far too literally.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Wearing a turban or a hijab is not 'promoting' religion.

Yes it is.

red petal · 04-04-2019 12:20PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and it also do not affect how they do their job. at all. Seems to be a case of them funny brown people again.

Bit racist, eh?

If it has no effect on their job, why bother changing it so? Whether it's their intention or not, it does effect their job with the public presuming a list of stereotypes or judgements about them and causing unnecessary conflict.

One eyed Jack · 04-04-2019 12:22PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

It really comes down to this. So long as the Gardai involved in this still actively do their jobs and don't allow their own personal religious beliefs to directly impact their day to day duties, then I have no issue with this.

I think the whole point of the exercise is that an expression of their personal religious beliefs will make them more approachable and serve community relations better with people in their own communities who share their personal religious beliefs.

We have hundreds of Doctors and Nurses who can wear hjibs and turbans, and it doesn't impact their work. Once it does, and say they refuse to do a blood transfusion for a patient because it impacts their religious beliefs, then we have a real problem.

We really don’t. It’s not as though there is a shortage of doctors and nurses who the patient can be referred to. There is however, a shortage of doctors and nurses who are willing to treat patients who refuse blood transfusions.

I know the blood transfusion was just one example to make your point, but I can think of many examples where there is a shortage of doctors and nurses willing to perform certain procedures, again due to the lack of representation in the medical profession of people of different beliefs.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 04-04-2019 12:29PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

It’d make u wonder do the guards even have any member who speaks Arabic.

That’s scary given the times we live in

Why would a Garda be required to speak Arabic? This is Ireland, we speak English or Irish.

ohnonotgmail · 04-04-2019 12:31PM

red petal wrote: »

Bit racist, eh?

If it has no effect on their job, why bother changing it so? Whether it's their intention or not, it does effect their job with the public presuming a list of stereotypes or judgements about them and causing unnecessary conflict.

if people are making judgements on people because of a piece of cloth then the problem is with the person making that judgement.

Yer Da sells Avon · 04-04-2019 12:32PM

RayCun wrote: »

The black boots are supplied by the gardai.

Brown boots, to the same specifications, would be equally effective, but supplying boots in two colours would be more expensive.

Is there a reason why the gardai should offer a choice of boot colour, or is this just you pretending to be stupid?

The Gardai have no choice but to supply the black boots themselves because all other boots are very, very, very, very, very dark blue.

MrFresh · 04-04-2019 12:35PM

Considering they aren't able to come up with an operational uniform that doesn't look like the McDonalds one, I reckon trying to introduce uniform appropriate religious items will be a disaster.

red petal · 04-04-2019 12:37PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if people are making judgements on people because of a piece of cloth then the problem is with the person making that judgement.

Sure, it's their judgement but that doesn't stop it happening. It can cause conflict, intentionally or not.

After all, you're referring to them as "funny brown people" when in fact colour and nationality has nothing to do with it. Anybody from anywhere in the world can wear "a piece of cloth", so you should probably stop pre judging.

Roger Hassenforder · 04-04-2019 12:38PM

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

there is a world of difference in wanting to end a specific religious ethos controlling and dominating state funded institutions and allowing freedom of religious expression for all, within limits, among those employed to deliver state services.

Ah, i see the difference! Catholic out, everything else in.

I 'd be more universal rather than selective.
Overt displays of any fantasy ideology have no place in public service, where the servants role is to serve all members of the public equally and impartially.

If someone is unwilling to serve as a police officer because they are required to remove an expression of their faith to so serve, they are placing secular/civil requirements subordinate to their religious ideology. That is their choice.
Or they could wear a turban/hijab to/from work.

Cordell · 04-04-2019 12:39PM

Yurt! wrote: »

Under what day-to-day policing circumstances would wearing a religious symbol negatively effect the discharge of their duties? It would have no more of an effect than if they had red hair or blue eyes.

RayCun wrote: »

How?

By personalizing their uniform, which is intended to depersonalize them.

Jayferg · 04-04-2019 12:40PM

Removing religion from schools and hospitals is good. Let's make our schools secular. Introduce it to AGS is seen as progressive too? Anyone else find this to be a little strange? Bit of hypocrisy there methinks

Grayson · 04-04-2019 12:43PM

red petal wrote: »

I disagree. Wearing a scarf instead of a cap is promotion of your beliefs and religion. Wearing a cap is neutral and doesn't indicate your beliefs or provoke a reaction from someone of a different belief.

Completely unnecessary.

It's not a promotion. Not if you're referring to it as a marketing type of promotion. That would mean that they are wearing it because they want you to become that religion. This isn't about you. It's about them and their faith.

ohnonotgmail · 04-04-2019 12:44PM

red petal wrote: »

Sure, it's their judgement but that doesn't stop it happening. It can cause conflict, intentionally or not.

Well then we should solve the problem where it exists by telling people not to be such ****ing idiots.

red petal wrote: »

After all, you're referring to them as "funny brown people" when in fact colour and nationality has nothing to do with it. Anybody from anywhere in the world can wear "a piece of cloth", so you should probably stop pre judging.

Clearly not a fan of sarcasm.

Grayson · 04-04-2019 12:47PM

red petal wrote: »

I'm well aware of that. None of which requires us to know what they like to to in their spare time, practice religion, which team they support, which political party they support. It has nothing to do with their role.

You do realise that football and politics are not the same as religion.

Roger Hassenforder · 04-04-2019 12:47PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if people are making judgements on people because of a piece of cloth then the problem is with the person making that judgement.

Or you could have regard to those forced to wear this "piece of cloth", and maybe consider alternative positions?

Some "pieces of cloth" are a barometer of the oppression of women in certain societies.

ohnonotgmail · 04-04-2019 12:49PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Or you could have regard to those forced to wear this "piece of cloth", and maybe consider alternative positions?

Some "pieces of cloth" are a barometer of the oppression of women in certain societies.

here we go again. Muslim women should not wear the hijab because other muslim women in other countries are oppressed? Is that the strenght of your argument? Is that really the best argument you can come up with?

red petal · 04-04-2019 12:49PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well then we should solve the problem where it exists by telling people not to be such ****ing idiots.

No, we should just avoid causing an issue that we don't already have.

Clearly not a fan of sarcasm.

You're just not very good at it. It wasn't sarcasm. It was an attempt to shut me up by badly attempting to call me racist with zero basis.

One eyed Jack · 04-04-2019 12:49PM

Jayferg wrote: »

Removing religion from schools and hospitals is good. Let's make our schools secular. Introduce it to AGS is seen as progressive too? Anyone else find this to be a little strange? Bit of hypocrisy there methinks

I don’t imagine it’s the same people are calling for the introduction of either measure tbh, so there’s no hypocrisy in either position, just a difference in terms of what someone means when they regard something as progressive.

red petal · 04-04-2019 12:51PM

Grayson wrote: »

You do realise that football and politics are not the same as religion.

Yes, as much as I understand all equally have no relevance to guarding the public.

ohnonotgmail · 04-04-2019 12:53PM

red petal wrote: »

You're just not very good at it. It wasn't sarcasm. It was an attempt to shut me up by badly attempting to call me racist with zero basis.

Listen, you didn't get it. thats fine. Its not for everybody.

Grayson · 04-04-2019 12:53PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Ah, i see the difference! Catholic out, everything else in.

I 'd be more universal rather than selective.
Overt displays of any fantasy ideology have no place in public service, where the servants role is to serve all members of the public equally and impartially.

If someone is unwilling to serve as a police officer because they are required to remove an expression of their faith to so serve, they are placing secular/civil requirements subordinate to their religious ideology. That is their choice.
Or they could wear a turban/hijab to/from work.

No-one is suggesting we pass the patronage of schools onto another religion. Nor are they suggesting that catholics can't work in schools.

I have no problem with allowing a hijab or turban in the classroom, on a nurse or on a cop. IF it prevented any of them from doing their job I'd be against it. If a member of any religion refused to perform their duties because of their religion, they should be out. That goes for catholics too. If they don't want to provide an abortion pill, they're out. If a muslim tried to do the same, they're out too.
If any of them, christian, muslim or sikh tried to convert someone during the course of their job I'd have them out.
If their particular religious garb prevented a part of their duties, then they should remove it or leave the job.

If it's ok and doesn't interfere with their job, then they're ok to wear it as far as I'm concerned.

MrFresh · 04-04-2019 12:57PM

Jayferg wrote: »

Removing religion from schools and hospitals is good. Let's make our schools secular. Introduce it to AGS is seen as progressive too? Anyone else find this to be a little strange? Bit of hypocrisy there methinks

You're not really comparing like with like though are you? You're comparing organisational structure to individual employees. I've seen hundreds of Gardaí wearing ashes on Ash Wednesday in my lifetime, I've never seen a thread on Boards about it. I'm not aware of any rule preventing teachers wearing a hijab or a crucifix. Secularism isn't about forcing people to give up their religion, quite the opposite, it's about not forcing religion on people.

whisky_galore · 04-04-2019 12:58PM

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why would a Garda be required to speak Arabic? This is Ireland, we speak English or Irish.

Would it not be an advantage? Monitor groups that may be here who do not converse in English or *lol* Irish?

Grayson · 04-04-2019 12:58PM

And btw, I'd be fine with a catholic having ash on their heads on ash wednesday. (It's the only day I can think of that catholics are required to have something that's an outward sign of their faith).

AGS to allow members to wear religous and ethnic garb while on duty

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