AGS to allow members to wear religous and ethnic garb while on duty

Yurt2

Cordell wrote: »

Y

Wearing a visible religious symbol interferes with their duties, this is why they wear uniforms

Under what day-to-day policing circumstances would wearing a religious symbol negatively effect the discharge of their duties? It would have no more of an effect than if they had red hair or blue eyes.

RayCun

Cordell wrote: »

Wearing a visible religious symbol interferes with their duties

How?

RayCun

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

Can you fill me in on this reasoning?

Maybe you aren't pretending?

suicide_circus

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Delighted the new Commissioner is modernising the AGS.
A real breath of fresh air.
Well done that man!:)

Allowing religious paraphernalia is modernising? hmmmm

Mrsmum

Sonics2k wrote: »

I presume you got upset when they removed the Irish language requirement to join the Gardai?

Sure up until 1959/60 there were no women Gardai.

Hell, right now you're not allowed be a uniformed Gardai if you have a beard, which is all kinds of stupid.

The thing about the beards - the look of AGS members is supposed to inspire trust and confidence in the widest amount of the population. There is imo an older generation, who often are the victims of crime, that prefer and feel safer with a clean cut, choir boy look should they find themselves dealing with a garda. I might be basing that on the fact my husband sports a beard and both my mother and his mother, both in their eighties, are not impressed.

Sonics2k

red petal wrote: »

Yes, just like it would bother me if they all wore their football jerseys. Religion, football or any other hobby or personal belief has no place in the GDS.

Well hang on a moment, I agree with you to an extent. Personal belief should have no direct impact on the rules and laws of the Gardai. However, it's ridiculous to work under the assumption that no Gardai is religious or has a personal belief system.

This change is quite simply in line with many others across the world, allowing people to wear a hijab or turban on duty and therefore opening up recruitment to more Irish citizens.

JonnyMarbles

RayCun wrote: »

Only atheists allowed become gardai?

Or anybody allowed join, as long as practicing their religion doesn't interfere with the performance of their duties?

The point is AGS are changing this rule so these religious people can join. Therefore, the reason these religious people don't join is because of the rule. Therefore, AGS want people who are so religious they're not willing to not wear their hat to join the force.

I'm sorry but someone who refuses to do a job over something like not wearing their hat is an extremist to me. If they're unwilling to not wear their hat for their job, what else are they unwilling to do because they're so tied to their religion?

You can be sure that a muslim who is so religious they refuse to work without their veil wouldn't have a fond view of gays for example.

BarryD2

Spleerbun wrote: »

I feel like we should be moving away from this religious stuff, not towards it. Confine your beliefs to your home and your own time, and wear the standard uniform as provided. Isn't that by definition the whole point of a "uniform", that it's the same for everyone?

Exactly, for citizens in their own private time. And that includes religious instruction in our primary schools.

Yurt2

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

The point is AGS are changing this rule so these religious people can join. Therefore, the reason these religious people don't join is because of the rule. Therefore, AGS want people who are so religious they're not willing to not wear their hat to join the force.

I'm sorry but someone who refuses to do a job over something like not wearing their hat is an extremist to me. If they're unwilling to not wear their hat for their job, what else are they unwilling to do because they're so tied to their religion?

You can be sure that a muslim who is so religious they refuse to work without their veil wouldn't have a fond view of gays for example.

How do we filter out Catholic / Protestant homophobes at the moment?

Yurt2

The free practice of religion (and yes some religions mandate the wearing of certain items) is not extremism. Extremist behavior is extremism.

JonnyMarbles

Yurt! wrote: »

The free practice of religion (and yes some religions mandate the wearing of certain items) is not extremism. Extremist behavior is extremism.

Extremist behaviour in my eyes is putting religion above everything else. Considering these people are refusing to take a job because they can't wear their hat, that's extremism.

RollieFingers

Can anybody just wear whatever they want to a job now? Like if members of whatever religions want to wear religious clothing/garments because they worship some sky wizard, can someone for example wear more comfortable shoes to work? Neither make a difference to ones ability to do the job, just seems to be pandering to religion, which I dont think should be involved in schools, hospitals, policing etc.

RayCun

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

I'm sorry but someone who refuses to do a job over something like not wearing their hat is an extremist to me. If they're unwilling to not wear their hat for their job, what else are they unwilling to do because they're so tied to their religion?

You can be sure that a muslim who is so religious they refuse to work without their veil wouldn't have a fond view of gays for example.

No-one is suggesting that a veil be part of the garda uniform.

I'm sure there are many practicing Catholics in the gardai. And some of them firmly believe that gay people are going to hell.

We don't require these people to forswear their religion to join the gardai. But they are told that they must uphold the law of the state, and follow the procedures set out by the state as they carry out their duties.

Everyone is familiar with the idea of the a la carte Catholic, who gives up chocolate for Lent and goes to Mass at Christmas. Or jewish people who keep kosher but drive cars on Saturday. People who see their religion as a matter of cultural identity more than strict rules to follow.

But Sikhs and Muslims are so weird and scary to you that you don't understand that they might pick and choose what bits of their religion they observe as much as anyone else.

JonnyMarbles

RayCun wrote: »

No-one is suggesting that a veil be part of the garda uniform.

I'm sure there are many practicing Catholics in the gardai. And some of them firmly believe that gay people are going to hell.

We don't require these people to forswear their religion to join the gardai. But they are told that they must uphold the law of the state, and follow the procedures set out by the state as they carry out their duties.

Everyone is familiar with the idea of the a la carte Catholic, who gives up chocolate for Lent and goes to Mass at Christmas. Or jewish people who keep kosher but drive cars on Saturday. People who see their religion as a matter of cultural identity more than strict rules to follow.

But Sikhs and Muslims are so weird and scary to you that you don't understand that they might pick and choose what bits of their religion they observe as much as anyone else.

I wonder are cops allowed to refuse to work on Sundays because it's a day of rest?

I'd be very interested to see if this is in the guidelines.

RayCun

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

I wonder are cops allowed to refuse to work on Sundays because it's a day of rest?

You see that would be something that would interfere with the performance of their duties. As would refusing to operate machinery on the Sabbath. Or a female garda refusing to go on patrol with a male garda. Or a garda ignoring evidence from a witness because gay people can't be trusted.

Wearing a scarf instead of a cap? Makes no difference.

red petal

RayCun wrote: »

You see that would be something that would interfere with the performance of their duties. As would refusing to operate machinery on the Sabbath. Or a female garda refusing to go on patrol with a male garda. Or a garda ignoring evidence from a witness because gay people can't be trusted.

Wearing a scarf instead of a cap? Makes no difference.

I disagree. Wearing a scarf instead of a cap is promotion of your beliefs and religion. Wearing a cap is neutral and doesn't indicate your beliefs or provoke a reaction from someone of a different belief.

Completely unnecessary.

ArrBee

judeboy101 wrote: »

Catholic ags will be allowed to wear a crucifix, you won't be able to discriminate on this rule. Pastafarian ags will be able to wear a colander. Klingon ags will be able to carry a baath'leth .

....Rastafarians will be allowed to smoke dope and not wash...Nazis will be allowed to wear a swastika.... Satanists will be allowed to, well not quiet sure TBH...

RayCun

red petal wrote: »

I disagree. Wearing a scarf instead of a cap is promotion of your beliefs and religion. Wearing a cap is neutral and doesn't indicate your beliefs or provoke a reaction from someone of a different belief.

Are gardai banned from wearing ashes on their foreheads?

Grayson

judeboy101 wrote: »

Catholic ags will be allowed to wear a crucifix, you won't be able to discriminate on this rule. Pastafarian ags will be able to wear a colander. Klingon ags will be able to carry a baath'leth .

Is wearing a crucifix a necessary part of their belief? I was raised catholic and not once did I ever see any rule like that.

red petal

RayCun wrote: »

Are gardai banned from wearing ashes on their foreheads?

I've never seen a guard with ashes on their head, have you?

If so, yes they should be. There's not one reason why any sort of religion should be visible on them.

If you see any logical reason why we need to know their religion, please enlighten me.

ohnonotgmail

red petal wrote: »

I disagree. Wearing a scarf instead of a cap is promotion of your beliefs and religion. Wearing a cap is neutral and doesn't indicate your beliefs or provoke a reaction from someone of a different belief.

Completely unnecessary.

and it makes absolutely no difference to the people they are dealing with.

RayCun

red petal wrote: »

If you see any logical reason why we need to know their religion, please enlighten me.

We don't need to know their religion.

They don't need to hide their religion.

As long as they are doing their jobs.

red petal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and it makes absolutely no difference to the people they are dealing with.

Why bother wearing a uniform if that's the case?

Yurt2

If turban or hijab wearing Gardai start proselytizing on the job or refusing to perform their duties you'll have my attention.

Until then I'll go off the experience of Canada/UK/NZ where thousands of turban and hijab wearers serve their communities with distinction.

Once these individuals take their oath and fulfill their duties to the best of their ability (and I bet they will) I'm not bellyaching.

red petal

RayCun wrote: »

We don't need to know their religion.

They don't need to hide their religion.

As long as they are doing their jobs.

We don't need to know their religion.
They don't need to hide it- They can practice it at home or their place of worship.
As long as they are doing their job- This will be at stake because like it or not, it will provoke confrontations that has nothing to do with their job.

Yurt2

red petal wrote: »

Why bother wearing a uniform if that's the case?

So that they are identifiable to the general public and so that the public have confidence in their force.

A Garda uniform doesn't fail that smell test because the head gear is different.

punisher5112

Should be like the Germans and only Germans may apply.

I want a force that polices not one that goes around showing off their religious faith.

Sick of all this rubbish.

Similar to them now calling for badges for people in school who don't want to go by he or she so they are to be called they on any day they decide whether to be a girl or boy or a nothing.....

Cienciano

I disagree with gardai wearing religious symbols. As someone said, they have a uniform, they should wear that. They don't need religious symbols to do their job

Erik Shun wrote: »

Try being a Muslim woman and not wear a hijab... Muslim countries it's a punishable offence ...here families frown upon it ..
I'm all for inclusion in the gardai... but the hijab is a symbol of subjugation and make no mistake about that

Erik Shun wrote: »

My statement about the hijab is quite true I'm afraid..you should try doing a little research my good fellow

But statements like this are hilariously ignorant. Imagine people in other countries thinking irish frown upon sex before marriage because we're catholic? I know plenty of muslim women, none of them conform to your pre conceived notions. Sit down and brace yourself, but some even drink!

ohnonotgmail

red petal wrote: »

Why bother wearing a uniform if that's the case?

So we can identify them. Do you really need that explained to you? Now tell me what difference it would make if that uniform included a hijab or a turban?

red petal

Yurt! wrote: »

So that they are identifiable to the general public and so that the public have confidence in their force.

A Garda uniform doesn't fail that smell test because the head gear is different.

And the most identifiable uniform is one that is the same on everybody. The best way to have confidence in our force is knowing that we all have the same objective- to keep people safe and look out for their interests.

A neutral uniform does just that. There are no clash of view or beliefs and not one reason to know their personal beliefs.

The only belief that we need to know from them is that they all have the same priorities as people serving the public.