Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha · 02-04-2019 08:23PM

Off topic posts deleted.

Spanish Eyes · 02-04-2019 08:23PM

Bojo on LBC now, and is uncompromising. Need to take back sovereignty, make our own laws yada yada. There is really no end to this debacle.

Never had much time for him anyway, so maybe my views are coloured a bit.

Professor Moriarty · 02-04-2019 08:27PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Bojo on LBC now, and is uncompromising. Need to take back sovereignty, make our own laws yada yada. There is really no end to this debacle.

Never had much time for him anyway, so maybe my views are coloured a bit.

Eurosceptism is emboldened and is here for the long haul. Britain will be a divided country for at least a generation.

Spanish Eyes · 02-04-2019 08:32PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Eurosceptism is emboldened and is here for the long haul. Britain will be a divided country for at least a generation.

Funny that you say that. Met with some UK people earlier today, and they are so embarrassed by all this. Whether that was for my benefit or not I am not sure, but the subject was moved on to something else sharpish. Very telling.

The unfortunate thing is, that the hubris of SOME in UK now is nauseous to me anyway, they know what they want, but cannot justify the consequences of it, nor do they care as long as the retrieve their borders, their sovereignty ( thought they have that already), and control of immigration etc.

The irony is, that the immigrant issue that they are so exercised about has nothing to do with Free Movement within the EU.

I fear for those who have not analysed all this. But that sounds arrogant, not meant to be, just a reaction to all I have seen and heard already.

Mr.Wemmick · 02-04-2019 08:36PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Bojo on LBC now, and is uncompromising. Need to take back sovereignty, make our own laws yada yada. There is really no end to this debacle.

Never had much time for him anyway, so maybe my views are coloured a bit.

No, he is really disliked here in the UK, where I am anyway.. think we are all sick of the Tory show. A weak opposition means many feel trapped with the Tories and stuck with their bungling methods of non transparent game playing and selling the country out to save themselves, their fantasies and their party. It's sickening.

I hope the EU forces them to take a long extension and allow time for some voice of sanity to come along and rise above the rabble.

marno21 · 02-04-2019 08:38PM

I feel sorry for genuine people in the UK who didn't vote for any of this and are possibly facing the prospect of trade guru Liam Fox handing over the keys of the UK to the US in 10 days time in the name of "global Britain".

The long term consequences of this nonsense will be severe - and it will be too late by the time they manifest themselves.

Spanish Eyes · 02-04-2019 08:48PM

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

No, he is really disliked here in the UK, where I am anyway.. think we are all sick of the Tory show. A weak opposition means many feel trapped with the Tories and stuck with their bungling methods of non transparent game playing and selling the country out to save themselves, their fantasies and their party. It's sickening.

I hope the EU forces them to take a long extension and allow time for some voice of sanity to come along and rise above the rabble.

So why is he portrayed as the next Tory PM (assuming that all works out re elections and so on)?

I am glad to hear he is dismissed by most intelligent people, but from my world view he seems to be top of the list. I just shake my head now and wonder why.

But it is not my country, so I will desist from saying much more.

ShooterSF · 02-04-2019 08:55PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Funny that you say that. Met with some UK people earlier today, and they are so embarrassed by all this. Whether that was for my benefit or not I am not sure, but the subject was moved on to something else sharpish. Very telling.

The unfortunate thing is, that the hubris of SOME in UK now is nauseous to me anyway, they know what they want, but cannot justify the consequences of it, nor do they care as long as the retrieve their borders, their sovereignty ( thought they have that already), and control of immigration etc.

The irony is, that the immigrant issue that they are so exercised about has nothing to do with Free Movement within the EU.

I fear for those who have not analysed all this. But that sounds arrogant, not meant to be, just a reaction to all I have seen and heard already.

I don't think freedom of movement is a bad thing but for those that are anti-immigration 8 of the top 10bu populous non-british nationals in the UK are from the EU so it kinda does no?

LeinsterDub · 02-04-2019 08:56PM

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1113166400993067009

This day is far from over. A lot of unhappy Tories throwing their toys out of the pram. Will the cabinet force her hand?

Professor Moriarty · 02-04-2019 08:58PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1113166400993067009

This day is far from over. A lot of unhappy Tories throwing their toys out of the pram. Will the cabinet force her hand?

Half of them might resign. The Brexiteer half.

Mr.Wemmick · 02-04-2019 08:59PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

So why is he portrayed as the next Tory PM (assuming that all works out re elections and so on)?

I am glad to hear he is dismissed by most intelligent people, but from my world view he seems to be top of the list. I just shake my head now and wonder why.

But it is not my country, so I will desist from saying much more.

Because the public don't get a say, the tories do. This is why they don't want a 2nd Ref. or a GE, they might lose the control. Johnson would not be singing his Churchill song and thumping his chest if he didn't think he had an audience.

Political showmanship and he's good at it. Yet the country needs the likes of Dominic Grieve not Saturday night at the Palladium.

EKRIUQ · 02-04-2019 08:59PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1113166400993067009

This day is far from over. A lot of unhappy Tories throwing their toys out of the pram. Will the cabinet force her hand?

Tough they had their chance, they can wait until the 12 month period is up.

force eleven · 02-04-2019 09:04PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Your contribution is very interesting.

Please elaborate just how the EU is stopping the UK from leaving!?

They want the UK to have a second vote. This is what Macron advocated as lately as today. The UK has voted. We know the result. Why must every EU referendum that goes against their goals end up being repeated. This is my point. Regardless of how you believe it should have went, ultimately the EU do not want nor an afford the UK to leave.

LeinsterDub · 02-04-2019 09:05PM

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Tough they had their chance, they can wait until the 12 month period is up.

They can always vote no confidence in the government.

Professor Moriarty · 02-04-2019 09:06PM

Great line from the Matt cartoon in The Telegraph:

A good guide to what happens next is to ask yourself how could this get any worse.

prawnsambo · 02-04-2019 09:08PM

force eleven wrote: »

They want the UK to have a second vote. This is what Macron advocated as lately as today. The UK has voted. We know the result. Why must every EU referendum that goes against their goals end up being repeated. This is my point. Regardless of how you believe it should have went, ultimately the EU do not want nor an afford the UK to leave.

No. He said that's what the EuCo would grant a long extension for among other things. And since when is it not allowed for the EU to have a negotiating position?

LeinsterDub · 02-04-2019 09:08PM

force eleven wrote: »

They want the UK to have a second vote. This is what Macron advocated as lately as today. The UK has voted. We know the result. Why must every EU referendum that goes against their goals end up being repeated. This is my point. Regardless of how you believe it should have went, ultimately the EU do not want nor an afford the UK to leave.

The UK can leave tomorrow if they want. It's the UK which delayed in order to get a deal. The EU will not go bankrupt without the UK. It will be fine.

EKRIUQ · 02-04-2019 09:08PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They can always vote no confidence in the government.

They could but in the current atmosphere I don't think their going to chance a general election.

Headshot · 02-04-2019 09:09PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They can always vote no confidence in the government.

They don't want a GE and the possibility of JC in charge and Brexit going altogether

joe40 · 02-04-2019 09:13PM

Just catching up on the day's events, but if ERG and co are pissed off, it must be a positive development.
I know plenty can happen yet though

ShooterSF · 02-04-2019 09:13PM

force eleven wrote: »

They want the UK to have a second vote. This is what Macron advocated as lately as today. The UK has voted. We know the result. Why must every EU referendum that goes against their goals end up being repeated. This is my point. Regardless of how you believe it should have went, ultimately the EU do not want nor an afford the UK to leave.

I'd imagine they want them to pass the deal they negotiated...

02-04-2019 09:19PM

What with this clown, Corbyn, the 48% of the UK electorate which voted to remain in the EU have no political leadership in their parliament. How long will it take the pro-EU people to mobilise to create a new realignment in British politics? Their two main parties are two sides of the same coin, and that 48% have no political party to represent them. A joke democracy that so many are disenfranchised and accepting it.

Remember the Liberal Party was once the main opposition to the Tories until Labour successfully overthrew it. Two party system or not, Labour can be overthrown from its position by a pro-EU/progressive party. But that 48% has not mobilsed into supporting a pro-EU party. They actually deserve little sympathy for letting the ignorant and the undereducated beat them.

ancapailldorcha · 02-04-2019 09:20PM

Boris Johnson will almost certainly not be the next Prime Minister. Once upon a time, he was en route to being the sort of Tory a lefty could be forgiven for voting for. He had his own brand of charisma, experience as London's Mayor (despite spaffing away mountains of taxpayers' money) and a reputation for being an intellectual. The problem is that his backing Brexit simply to position himself as the next PM and then burning his own campaign through his own laziness and lack of discipline and organisational ability have killed his bungling Boris facade for good. Sure, the Tory right and membership might still love him but he's toxic from the centre-right leftwards. Millenials won't be forgetting his actions any time soon as they're about to be stripped of their rights to live and work abroad simply because Boris felt entitled to be Prime Minister because reasons.

Next election, what will the Conservatives run on? Strong Economy? Controlling Immigration? Getting out of the ECJ? Boris Johnson's Funhouse? If Labour ditch Corbyn, they all but guaranteed No. 10. If not, they're in with a fighting chance. Johnson's carefully maintained gaffe-prone but well-meaning bungling buffoon persona has been stripped away exposing a truly ugly and venal person underneath.

Capt'n Midnight · 02-04-2019 09:21PM

briany wrote: »

I was talking about the scenario where the EU accepts May's proposal of extending to the 22nd for talks with Labour, which is, admittedly, highly unlikely-looking.

Look at Spain and the Catalan thing.

The EU doesn't interfere in internal politics.
So unlikely to grant short extension for internal politics , elections etc.

I could see a short extension for referendum because EU citizens. But only for a very clear question and guarantee that it would be acted upon. And zero chance if it's for something the EU has already rejected. No unicorns. No defining a negotiating position.

Dampsquid · 02-04-2019 09:24PM

Have mixed feelings about this, is she doing this to get the hard brexiteers in her party to finally switch over and vote for her deal - now that they see the alternative.

Or is she doing this to countdown the clock to next week, then announce no agreement with Labour and they leave with no deal on the 12th.

I cant see her going all this way and backing down at the last moment, she gave no indication to date that she would compromise and seek cross party support, or go with a softer brexit.

If there is not mass resignation in her cabinet by lunch time tomorrow, then there is something else going on in the background.

Brexit has always been about the Tory party.

Hurrache · 02-04-2019 09:24PM

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Tough they had their chance, they can wait until the 12 month period is up.

Absolutely, and I reckon that's a large part of May's reasoning too.

Her own party had the chance and could come up with nothing several times over.

Water John · 02-04-2019 09:27PM

There are various strands to what May offered. She knows almost no chance of the 22nd May target. She wants to ensnare Corbyn whilst at the same time hoping he may save her Deal in some form.
Corbyn quite right not to reveal his hand. What he wants and especially his rating those desires. May is now very weak, or she might be just on Groundhog Day, meeting Corbyn without good faith.

Irishmale0399 · 02-04-2019 09:30PM

The big question here is will the EU accept the request for yet another extension without any solid basis. The elections are coming fast and surely if the UK was to take part they would need at least 2-3 weeks prep in Brussels and London.

Capt'n Midnight · 02-04-2019 09:35PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Great line from the Matt cartoon in The Telegraph:

A good guide to what happens next is to ask yourself how could this get any worse.

In fairness some of those are funny because they are true.

And don't forget to put your Brexit clocks BACK 12 months.

And this one from 3 years ago
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/best-of-matt/

BluePlanet · 02-04-2019 09:43PM

The reality is that TM knew there was no support from her own bench ages ago, she should have reached across the aisle way back then.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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