Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

FrancieBrady · 28-03-2019 03:06PM

jester77 wrote: »

You can say what you want about the DUP, and I wouldn't be a fan, but at least they stand by their beliefs and everyone knows where they stand.

No, they actually don't stand by the Never Never Never stance. They were quite happy to operate the GFA after vociferously rejecting it.
They are now pivoting back to being against it because it suits them.
Remember the 'Chuckle Bros.'? A few short months before they wouldn't even be in the same room with a SF member.

28-03-2019 03:07PM

As usual, TLDR has a good video on the votes.

It's honestly worth watching. He does a good job.

Strazdas · 28-03-2019 03:11PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Who said it's the EU's doing?

Also, Teresa May has no mandate to remove the UK from the single market. That is not the Leave campaign that was run in 2015-2016, they just moved the goal posts afterwards.....

If she wants to leave the single market, there needs to be a campaign that advocates this option.

As for it being a temporary measure.....yes it's a temporary measure for the years it takes the 27 members to agree to give the UK all the advantages of being in the EU and none of the disadvantage...cos that's what they think they should have!

The Washington Post had a good article at the weekend about how No Deal was never mentioned once during the referendum campaign and about how it represents the complete failure of the Brexit ie "Brexit is a disaster, so let's just crash out with No Deal and to hell with the consequences".

The idea that the British public voted for it is laughable.

Akrasia · 28-03-2019 03:18PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Should and I'm sure would be seen as highly undemocratic. To go back to a population that voted to leave and offer them an unpopular deal or cancel the whole thing when a lot want to leave without mays deal is stacking the referendum in remains favour.
You can say people can't be offered no deal because it is too dangerous but either you trust the people and your ability to argue your case to them or you don't go back to them at all.
I'm pro eu but the willingness of other pro eu people to subvert and manipulate the system to keep the UK in is appaling to me. If the same referendum was mays deal or no deal you'd rightly be outraged too.

It's a hell of a lot more democratic to ask the public to either ratify her deal or remain in the EU, than to force the HOC to choose between either her deal which is, as you said, extremely unpopular with both the public and the parliament, or 'No deal' which is also extremely unpopular.

If there isn't a deal agreed by 12th of April, the EU could refuse to extend A50 again, and that means crash out.

The public voted to leave, the parliament spent 3 years trying their hardest to leave, and now that the fruits of their negotiations are plain to see, the people should have a right to vote for or against it.

Akrasia · 28-03-2019 03:26PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

There's absolutely no point in having a second referendum until the people of Britain have a decent "leave" option that they can choose - May's withdrawal agreement doesn't cut it. It needs a new PM with a new WA negotiated with the May red lines off the table

There's no point in having a 2nd referendum that is so vague and open to interpretation that it cannot be implemented without the same kind of parliamentary paralysis that we have seen these past 3 years.

A referendum needs to have a very specific outcome. Either accept a specified and defined deal, or remain in the EU. All this nonsense about including 'no deal' as an option, or having a shopping list of various types of aspirational brexits wouldn't work the moment the negotiators hit a brick wall beyond which they have no mandate to negotiate

BonnieSituation · 28-03-2019 03:38PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, they actually don't stand by the Never Never Never stance. They were quite happy to operate the GFA after vociferously rejecting it.
They are now pivoting back to being against it because it suits them.
Remember the 'Chuckle Bros.'? A few short months before they wouldn't even be in the same room with a SF member.

See above Francie. There's been a prevailing "at least they're consistent" attitude towards the DUP recently on here.

Let's see how long it lasts. They may surprise us.

An Ciarraioch · 28-03-2019 03:38PM

http://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1111270653540352000

Laois_Man · 28-03-2019 03:44PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

http://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1111270653540352000

So they are tying to get Bercow to approve an MV3 vote....by showing it would not be a repeat of MV2....by showing it is a repeat of MV1

fash · 28-03-2019 03:45PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's a fantastic line

Possibly from here:
https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1111036247114502146

Charles Babbage · 28-03-2019 03:52PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, they actually don't stand by the Never Never Never stance. They were quite happy to operate the GFA after vociferously rejecting it.
They are now pivoting back to being against it because it suits them.
Remember the 'Chuckle Bros.'? A few short months before they wouldn't even be in the same room with a SF member.

Ian Paisley (Snr) ended up beng thrown out for being too friendly with Taigs subsequently though.

The DUP presumed Brexit wouldn't pass. They probably then presumed that the interests of British industry would ensure a modest Brexit that wouldn't require much of a backstop. In both cases they underestimated the lunacy of the English, who they presumed had more sense than they had.

They'll probably wriggle free though, as there will be a deal which they can say they opposed, even though they will be relieved at this.

Quin_Dub · 28-03-2019 04:00PM

##Mod Note##

All, I appreciate the desire to share information in such a fast moving topic , but if you are posting links to other content (Twitter , YouTube etc.) please add your own summations or opinions please.

Let's try to limit the "Take a look at this" kind of posts if we can.

Thanks a lot.

Infini · 28-03-2019 04:17PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

So they are tying to get Bercow to approve an MV3 vote....by showing it would not be a repeat of MV2....by showing it is a repeat of MV1

The 3rd vote needs to be different from the last in some way to allow anotuer vote. In this case the only way she can do so is if its a binary decision not an accept or reject vote, ie. Either accept the WA or a 2nd referendum will be called. Then its no longer the same vote because theres movement one way or another.

Laois_Man · 28-03-2019 04:21PM

Infini wrote: »

The 3rd vote needs to be different from the last in some way to allow anotuer vote. In this case the only way she can do so is if its a binary decision not an accept or reject vote, ie. Either accept the WA or a 2nd referendum will be called. Then its no longer the same vote because theres movement one way or another.

No, it has to be different from both of the previous two. If its the same as MV1, it's still a second vote on an identical motion!

woohoo!!! · 28-03-2019 04:22PM

Bercow will probably have to spell out some options to government to get an altered MV3 vote up.

Donald Trump · 28-03-2019 04:31PM

Strazdas wrote: »

The Washington Post had a good article at the weekend about how No Deal was never mentioned once during the referendum campaign and about how it represents the complete failure of the Brexit ie "Brexit is a disaster, so let's just crash out with No Deal and to hell with the consequences".

The idea that the British public voted for it is laughable.

I agree and I don't.

It is true that the "leave" position was full of lies and untruths.

The voters may not have understood or bothered to inform themselves before voting. But they did vote and if they misunderstood their importance of their vote and voted flippantly then it should be an important lesson to us all.

So I do think that they blindly and stupidly voted for Brexit. A bit like signing a contract without bothering to read it.

The fault is with the politicians for multiple reasons:
1) Abdicating their responsibility to represent and make decisions
2) Following the outcome of the non-binding referndum
3) Not informing the population about the reality before the election.

Even though the people "voted" for it. The politicians should accept responsibility and stop it. If they needed another referendum to give them more courage to do it then they should have.

robinph · 28-03-2019 04:47PM

They have to have a vote by 5pm on if they are coming back to work tomorrow after debating the reasons for doing so. An hour to go and the government hasn't told them the reason for coming back tomorrow yet as they are still presumably arguing in No 10!

Podge_irl · 28-03-2019 04:48PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

I agree and I don't.

It is true that the "leave" position was full of lies and untruths.

The voters may not have understood or bothered to inform themselves before voting. But they did vote and if they misunderstood their importance of their vote and voted flippantly then it should be an important lesson to us all.

So I do think that they blindly and stupidly voted for Brexit. A bit like signing a contract without bothering to read it.

The fault is with the politicians for multiple reasons:
1) Abdicating their responsibility to represent and make decisions
2) Following the outcome of the non-binding referndum
3) Not informing the population about the reality before the election.

Even though the people "voted" for it. The politicians should accept responsibility and stop it. If they needed another referendum to give them more courage to do it then they should have.

It's not about whether or not they voted for Brexit. Nothing beyond a tiny amount of people could have voted for a no deal Brexit as it was considered a laughable suggestion at the time.

Eod100 · 28-03-2019 04:53PM

Think original agreement was WA and political declaration but recent one looks as though it needs to be WA.

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1111275657848385536

Strazdas · 28-03-2019 04:55PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's not about whether or not they voted for Brexit. Nothing beyond a tiny amount of people could have voted for a no deal Brexit as it was considered a laughable suggestion at the time.

No Deal represents a radically changed narrative. It equates to the total failure of Brexit (not that any of its supporters can admit this) and a desire to "Let's get the hell out of the EU anyway, even though the Brexit process has failed".

Joe_ Public · 28-03-2019 04:59PM

Eod100 wrote: »

Think original agreement was WA and political declaration but recent one looks as though it needs to be WA.

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1111275657848385536

Seems pretty clear that by decoupling PD from WA they hope to meet speakers requirement for being a different motion. God only knows what is going on in the discussions with the dup, though.

eire4 · 28-03-2019 05:03PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Fun and games in the Scottish Parliament with Sturgeon toying with the Tories over May

https://twitter.com/mabonelis/status/1111244661341986817

That is classic. It will be interesting to see what path Sturgeon takes once the dust does finally settle in terms of any potential moves towards a Scottish independence referendum and subsequent attempt to rejoin the EU.

Donald Trump · 28-03-2019 05:06PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's not about whether or not they voted for Brexit. Nothing beyond a tiny amount of people could have voted for a no deal Brexit as it was considered a laughable suggestion at the time.

You miss my point.

The people voted for change of status quo without bothering to get a definition of what they would be changing to, or else due to believing the lies they were fed. That's all.

They signed a contact without reading it. A contract with a lot of fine print and a lots of blank pages of "TBD". (Yes, in this case, had it been a contract, or indeed a binding referendum, the result would have been null and void due to lies)

brickster69 · 28-03-2019 05:25PM

Great to see Euro-tunnel prepared to use smart border controls at the frontier.

https://twitter.com/mcgheeianmcghee/status/1110218554153074693

A Dub in Glasgo · 28-03-2019 05:29PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Great to see Euro-tunnel prepared to use smart border controls at the frontier.

You do realise Eurotunnel is one fixed line into France?

prawnsambo · 28-03-2019 05:39PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Great to see Euro-tunnel prepared to use smart border controls at the frontier.

https://twitter.com/mcgheeianmcghee/status/1110218554153074693

Yes. It's extremely smart. So smart that it can unload trucks to check them. And of course it also needs smart barriers to operate on a stop/go basis. because when it's go it's fine, when it's stop, not so much.

Open border

Headshot · 28-03-2019 05:41PM

Did Labour kick any of the MP's out for going against their whip?

Surely they would be some punishment for going against what labour proposed yesterday(especially the confirmation referendum)

Podge_irl · 28-03-2019 05:41PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

You miss my point.

The people voted for change of status quo without bothering to get a definition of what they would be changing to, or else due to believing the lies they were fed. That's all.

They signed a contact without reading it. A contract with a lot of fine print and a lots of blank pages of "TBD". (Yes, in this case, had it been a contract, or indeed a binding referendum, the result would have been null and void due to lies)

Strazdas' point was simply that any narrative that the people voted for any form of no-deal Brexit is an outright lie. There is no reading of history that would support the viewpoint. The idea that the British public voted for No Deal is indeed laughable.

Regardless of the myriad other problems with the referendum, a no-deal exit was considered to be on the lunatic fringes during the campaign and there is absolutely no mandate for it.

Joe_ Public · 28-03-2019 05:42PM

Headshot wrote: »

Did Labour kick any of the MP's out for going against their whip?

Surely they would be some punishment for going against what labour proposed yesterday(especially the confirmation referendum)

Did they whip though? Not sure they did, one of shadow cabinet resigned.

prawnsambo · 28-03-2019 05:43PM

Just looking at all that work going on in Calais and presumably at other ports in France and elsewhere. It's quite incredible that this cost has been imposed on everyone because of this. But 'taking back control'.

An Ciarraioch · 28-03-2019 05:43PM

Less than 20 minutes remaining, and still no clarity as to the plans for tomorrow ...

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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