Madeleine McCann

retro:electro · 26-03-2019 11:39am

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

If you have read the second link provided by Maebee in #5190 you will see Yvonne Martin is not as vague about David Payne as you are suggesting. It would also explain why Mr Payne would rather a child protection officer was brushed off as quickly as possible.

I already read it. Are you talking about when she said this?

She adds that her hypothesis is that she may have come to know him professionally through work, potentially having been colleagues at work or have worked at the same place but she cannot be certain where she met him as she does not remember

 

Or this...:

But she also states that according to what she remembers, when she met with Madeleine's parents, David Payne, who was with them, was wearing a dark polo shirt, blue or black coloured, cream coloured long trousers, of linen or cotton, and dark shoes (sandal/slipper type without a back buckle/catch). In her opinion, this clothing matches perfectly with the clothing the Police described the man (carrying the child) to be wearing at the time.

Yes I’m sure David was just casually hanging about in the exact same clothes he wore when he was seen carrying Madeleine off into the distance. Show me a western man who doesn’t dress this way while on holidays. That would be a harder task.

 Or this:

She declares that one of her main aims when she wrote the anonymous letter was for the British police to check the paedophile or child abusers registers and whether David Payne was on that list.

And this:

She clarifies that she is capable of making a photographic identification of the individual, and emphasises that with the identified photo it is possible to access the database of the British Police and ascertain whether the individual is related to any crimes involving children

Since David is still working as a doctor in the UK, I wonder how this went?

Like I said, a total and utter numpty.

Plumbthedepths · 26-03-2019 11:41am

Your opinion. However you selectively pulled the bits out of the statement to back up your slur.
Btw I'm a western male and have along with my friends whom i've gone in holidays with never dressed in the manner of D Payne. Slightly silly generalisation tbh.

Boom_Bap · 26-03-2019 11:52am

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Please for the love of whatever god you follow, stop talking about bathing the kids, one off hand comment last night led to the pedophile discussion again and resulted in incorrect people being named.

Can you perhaps see why I'm against this on the thread? It's all unsubstantiated claims that lead to more unsubstantiated claims that lead to frustration from everyone looking at the thread.

gozunda · 26-03-2019 12:14pm

Something Else

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

.... It would also explain why Mr Payne would rather a child protection officer was brushed off as quickly as possible.

Its odd then that Gerry and Kate were quite happy to use and accept the services offered by another stranger.

According to Stephen Carpenter (a TW holiday guest) who was also staying at the Ocean Club. He met Murat whilst helping with the search and introduced Robert Morat to Gerry who immediately took him up on his offer without any references or credentials.

In this role he helped the McCanns communicate with the police and vice versa.

We walked back along the path that I had taken to Gerry's apartment and I explained that Robert spoke Portuguese fluently, he told Gerry that it was important to have someone who spoke the language so that nothing would be lost in translation.. And that was how Robert Murat was presented as a translator.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

Tbh though I reckon the Child protection officer had a lucky break not getting involved with the McCanns et al considering how members of the Tapas 9 turned on Murat and made various allegations which was influential to him being made an Arguido imo.

Plumbthedepths · 26-03-2019 12:19pm

gozunda wrote:

Its odd then that Gerry and Kate were quite happy to use and accept the services offered by another stranger.

Maybe it was the profession of the strangers that made Kate and Gerry reluctant to accept the person's help as opposed to the person themselves. Only conclusion I can come to.

yourdeadwright · 26-03-2019 12:23pm

Accident happened, parents hid body

Regardless of weather the McCanns did it or not surely it makes sense for Kate no to want to speak to a social worker,

Wouldn't it be a social worker who would decide if they where unfit parents ?
I'd imagine she was afraid of saying anything that could seen as neglect on her or Gerry part and lead to possibly not being seen fit to look after the twins ,

Personally I don't see how a social worker would help her situation but could make it worse as in seeing them as unfit paretns,

Again I'm not a fan of the McCann ( i think there involved) but i can see why she didn't speak to her,

Tomw86 · 26-03-2019 12:29pm

Something Else

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Regardless of weather the McCanns did it or not surely it makes sense for Kate no to want to speak to a social worker,

Wouldn't it be a social worker who would decide if they where unfit parents ?
I'd imagine she was afraid of saying anything that could seen as neglect on her or Gerry part and lead to possibly not being seen fit to look after the twins ,

Personally I don't see how a social worker would help her situation but could make it worse as in seeing them as unfit paretns,

Again I'm not a fan of the McCann ( i think there involved) but i can see why she didn't speak to her,

I agree with this.

I can't see how speaking to a Social Worker would help them in any way at all.

Not a fan and think they were involved - don't understand the not talking to police and certain other aspects, but I would think this made sense.

chicorytip · 26-03-2019 12:42pm

Something Else

Plumbthedepths wrote:

If someone spoke to me about my 4 year old child in a sexualised manner, I'd be going away but not on holidays. That fact Gerry seemed to be ok with the conversation is disturbing to say the least.

It's not clear from Gaspars account that what McCann and Payne were talking about was in fact what she thought it was. She gave the impression of not having heard or listened carefully to the entire conversation so may have jumped to an erroneous conclusion. If you watch the Richard Hall analysis, which is extremely detailed and thorough, he more or less glosses over this incident and attatches no real significance to it. If the child was being sexually abused it would be unlikely the perpetrators would relate the graphic details of the abuse to others whilst sitting around the dinner table.

yourdeadwright · 26-03-2019 12:42pm

Accident happened, parents hid body

Tomw86 wrote: »

I agree with this.

I can't see how speaking to a Social Worker would help them in any way at all.

Not a fan and think they were involved - don't understand the not talking to police and certain other aspects, but I would think this made sense.

I think the same as your self but it also makes no sense to make out everything they do is some kind of cover up

I don't think anyone would want to speak to a social worker at that time when your child has gone missing because you where not taking care of them .

Common sense to blank them

gozunda · 26-03-2019 12:43pm

Something Else

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Regardless of weather the McCanns did it or not surely it makes sense for Kate no to want to speak to a social worker,

Wouldn't it be a social worker who would decide if they where unfit parents ?
I'd imagine she was afraid of saying anything that could seen as neglect on her or Gerry part and lead to possibly not being seen fit to look after the twins ,

Personally I don't see how a social worker would help her situation but could make it worse as in seeing them as unfit paretns,

Again I'm not a fan of the McCann ( i think there involved) but i can see why she didn't speak to her,

Tbh I think this is the crux of the issue. It's not that this person was a "stranger' rather the McCanns knew that by leaving very young children unsupervised in an apartment would likley be viewed poorly and may have had legal implications if pursued.

The child protection officer therefore was not going to be welcomed by them to help even though she had credentials etc and offered good advice on not speaking to the press etc.

weldoninhio · 26-03-2019 12:46pm

Something Else

SusieBlue wrote: »

What relevance does whether I have children or not have?

No one has disputed that leaving them alone at night was wrong.

She was in kids club from 3:30pm-5:30pm ish on the day she went missing, which by all accounts is not all day.
There is nothing wrong with utilising kids clubs, they are good for socialisation of children and many many parents use them.

In all the footage from the aftermath I see two broken people, Kate in particular looks like she's on the verge of collapsing.
In the footage from beforehand, the home videos, they look like a normal, happy family.

You see differently, that's fine, that's your perspective & I respect that, but you can't tell me I'm wrong.

Except when she was out jogging, having meals and brandy with Freud and leaving the twins to go on a European tour.

SusieBlue · 26-03-2019 12:49pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

weldoninhio wrote: »

Except when she was out jogging, having meals and brandy with Freud and leaving the twins to go on a European tour.

No, I was talking about specifically the press conferences where they were appealing for information. In my opinion, she looks absolutely distraught, devastated, and on the brink of an emotional breakdown.

But don't let me stop you, that was an excellent contribution to the thread. Let it all out. Don't hold back.

tretorn · 26-03-2019 12:50pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I cant imagine what the twins think of what their parents did, they must be almost teenagers now.

To think that all three children could have been taken and two are safe because for someone reason Madeleine was the one chosen.

iamwhoiam · 26-03-2019 12:51pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Some people we warm to and some people irritate us from the moment we meet them . Maybe the social worker was an irritating busybody . If someone busybodyed around me in a moment of high stress I too would brush them aside
Some people do my head in within minutes of meeting them

yourdeadwright · 26-03-2019 12:57pm

Accident happened, parents hid body

weldoninhio wrote: »

Except when she was out jogging, having meals and brandy with Freud and leaving the twins to go on a European tour.

I never get people who make an argument they where innocent because they looked broken , of course they did ,,
No matter what happened , there child was taken, Murdered or killed by accident , they would be broken for different reason ,

It crazy to think one day you can be a family no one is bothered with bar friends and family and the next your all over the world papers being spoken about for years and judged on everything you say and do,

Its a crazy world ,

Phoebas · 26-03-2019 1:00pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

weldoninhio wrote: »

Except when she was out jogging, having meals and brandy with Freud and leaving the twins to go on a European tour.

Is there any limit to how crass you can be?

26-03-2019 1:09pm

Something Else

The Matthew Oldfield check is very interesting.
Did it really happen?
How exactly did it come about? Did he volunteer? Was he roped into it a bit?

If the McCanns are guilty, there is no way they would allow him to check if there was something to hide. However, it’s possible that they might have wanted him to find Maddie missing. I mean, it would look better on them if somebody else had raised the alarm while they were sitting at the table,

Unfortunately, Matthew couldn’t recall if the window was open or if he had even seen Maddie.

If the parents are guilty of something, you’d have to assume the McCanns knew that Matthew would probably find her missing.

His statements also make it hard to understand how an abduction happened. He listened in at all the apartments around 9pm. Gerry does a check at 09:05ish and spends some time after talking to Jez, Jane is on the street around 9:10ish, Matthew is back for his check at around 09:30.

Any abductor watching would surely be thinking this is not a good opportunity.

Matthew also states the checks were every 15 mins or so.

Baffling case really.

Boom_Bap · 26-03-2019 1:13pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Phoebas wrote: »

Is there any limit to how crass you can be?

no need to make things personal

OwlsZat · 26-03-2019 1:57pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

This is why I have no doubt in my mind that Madeline McCann was abducted by a pedophile gang. With all the investigations there is simply explanation or alibi whatsoever for these people.

Denise Beryl Ashton wrote:

She clarifies that on the 3rd of May 2007, at around 17H00/17H15, when she was in her PdL residence, and whilst her husband sleeping, she heard someone ring the doorbell. She immediately headed to the door, opened it and saw two individuals (one standing behind the other as in a queue). She also noticed that one of them had a folder, with a rigid top, that, she presumes, was a type of identification? or an access card. She did not see what it said.

The man in front said a few words in Portuguese to which the witness responded that she did not understand. That same person began speaking in English, not fluently, nor very correctly, and she presumed he was not a British citizen. Now speaking in English, without offering his name, he told her that each year he was authorised to collect donations on behalf of an orphanage. At the same time, he handed her a brochure, on printed paper, which he later took back, as we will see later. Upon explaining that he asking on behalf of an orphanage, the individual asked the witness if she knew where Espiche was. She assumed that the orphanage was in this location.

Immediately afterwards, the individual asked his colleague for a photograph album, with a blue cover, which was exhibited to the witness, and which contained photographs of children. Since she did not have her glasses on however, she cannot be sure about this. He explained then that he could provide her with a receipt, and showed her a book, and alleged that he had been in her neighbours house. That was not true as she knew no one was home next door.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DENISE_ASHTON.htm

Rex Morgan wrote:

The first person walked towards me and introduced himself. I do not recall his name however he did show me an identification card on which was a picture of him. I did notice that the picture showed with a moustache, but that he did not have one. He did in fact point this out to me as well.

He then went on to explain his purpose for being there. He said that he was collecting money so that he could help to get young boys of the street and keep young girls away from prostitution. He showed me a (Page 2) portfolio with pictures of a hospice where these young people are housed. I do not recall where this hospice is located. He asked for a contribution and I gave him 10 Euros. He did provide me with a receipt.

I did not take much notice of their appearance as I did not feel threatened by them. I thought them to be genuine. I only became concerned when i heard that little Madeleine McCann had gone missing later that day.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/REX-MORGAN.htm

Johnathan Stanley Cooper wrote:

A few hours later that evening Gail and I had a quiet moment together. She said to me "A funny thing happened today while you were out some strange man came to the door wafting paper about saying he was collecting for an orphanage in the town of Espiage".

She told me it unnerved her abit. She then said "He told her there was a car crash on the EN125 where a british couple (Page Two) were killed leaving 3 children. It occurred a couple of days before we arrived. I cannot recall much about the conversation however she went on to say he spoke English but his accent wasn't Portuguese. She told him she had no money and that her husband was coming back.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GAIL_COOPER.htm#jc4016

OwlsZat · 26-03-2019 2:09pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Having followed the case at the time, the documentary more recently and most recently read everything there is to read I want to explain what I think happened.

1. Kate McCann suffered from General Anxiety Disorder. Her relationship with Gerry as a result was chaotic and dysfunctional. They were rowing and the kids suffered. They were neglected. It's this that makes them look guilty. They are guilty of negligence but nothing more.

2. I believe the anonymous tip off which was given stating the child was ordered by a Pedophile gang in Belgium. Because shortly before the abduction the McCann residence in OH was teeming with "shady characters". People in the alley looking in from the balcony, parked van watching, odd strangers on the property of the hotel, and most importantly a number milling around the vicinity posing as charity collectors (also known as spotters). I believe it was a team effort to lift the child. They knew where she was and that she was left unattended.

3. The white transit van is involved in the abduction. It's directly outside the property. Then it appears through 3 or 4 different statements and sightings. It's the obviously getaway vehicle.

4. A blonde (french speaking) female is involved with the abduction. The one reported to have her with the older individual in Monforte-Ermesinde. I believe she is the same woman reported from Amsterdam by Anna. The woman is important as the whole thing will look far more believable if Madiline is with a woman.

5. No idea after that. Alive, dead, likely owned by a group of wealthy pedos. Likely long forgotten who she is. Does she get out or did the dispose of her years ago, who knows.

It's frightening that the "investigation" didn't do better but it didn't. There is tones of leads and repeated commonalities they should have picked up. They were slow to react and quick to pin it on anyone they could as the Robert Murat stuff demonstrates. They acted out the same plot as the Rui Pedro case and really the police are probably the main reason that the case will likely never be solved.

Saying that I'm still hopeful that either she is recognized as an adult God knows where or when or that someone involved gives up information with authorities in exchange for leniency for another crime. I mean surely at least one of the "charity collectors" could be identified and picked up.

What a shambolic police effort that that was never the case.

Plumbthedepths · 26-03-2019 2:20pm

OwlsZat wrote:

This is why I have no doubt in my mind that Madeline McCann was abducted by a pedophile gang. With all the investigations there is simply explanation or alibi whatsoever for these people.

Yet neither the PJ or Scotland could find evidence of this gang.

Plumbthedepths · 26-03-2019 2:23pm

OwlsZat wrote:

. I believe she is the same woman reported from Amsterdam by Anna. The woman is important as the whole thing will look far more believable if Madiline is with a woman.

The same Anna with the photographic memory who saw Madeline's eye colour but not her eye defect. The same Madeline who called herself 'Maddie' to Anna but yet according to Kate, Madeline always corrected people who called her 'Maddie'. Anna got her few minutes of fame but not credible tbh

OwlsZat · 26-03-2019 2:24pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Yet neither the PJ or Scotland could find evidence of this gang.

I think you've chosen the wrong word as the witness statements are all the strongest evidence possible. I hope your criticising the police effort rather than questioning three independent statements.

Plumbthedepths · 26-03-2019 2:25pm

OwlsZat wrote:

I think you've chosen the wrong word as the witness statements are all the strongest evidence possible. I hope your criticising the police effort rather than questioning three independent statements.

The witness statements count for next to nothing, do you think Scotland Yard made no attempt to follow up on these accounts as they were tasked to investigate an abduction nothing else according to Colin Sutton.

OwlsZat · 26-03-2019 2:39pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The witness statements count for next to nothing, do you think Scotland Yard made no attempt to follow up on these accounts as they were tasked to investigate an abduction nothing else according to Colin Sutton.

When they followup and its miles too late. What exactly do you expect them to find? Their full statements have already been given.

All the statements should have been taken immediately. Efits should have been made and vechicle details and efits circulated. Border patrol notified, roads in / out locked down, compulsory spot checks added. The police were too busy trying to make up a story to frame Robert Murat... or hiding in the car from rain smoking in their cars.

This kinda investigation is time critical. In this case they were asleep at the wheel when it was most important. At the very start.

cnocbui · 26-03-2019 2:55pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The witness statements count for next to nothing, do you think Scotland Yard made no attempt to follow up on these accounts as they were tasked to investigate an abduction nothing else according to Colin Sutton.

You must have mentioned this ten times by now.

Scotland yard ruled out investigating the McCanns because they had reviewed the PJ investigation and had concluded they had covered that angle comprehensively to the point where they considered any further effort to likely be a waste of time. To pursue an investigation targeting the McCanns you would need hard forensic evidence - which the UK police simply can't do as any such evidence would be in Portugal and they have no legal authority to operate there, just as the PJ can't come to Ireland and do crime scene investigations where they collect forensic evidence and interview witnesses etc - only the Guards have the legal mandate to act in that way. If the Met wanted to do anything concrete in PDL, they would have ask the PJ to do it for them.

Were they to attempt such a thing, the PJ and Portugal would be incensed at the blatant arrogance and the suggestion that they hadn't done an adequate and thorough job of it themselves. The Met and the UK would have been told not to bother - though not that politely.

You seem to be implying that Sutton as an individual is somehow superior to the Met as a whole, who would know far more about the case than Sutton, since he was never in the loop and never had access to the material the Met have nor spent as much time analysing it.

Plumbthedepths · 26-03-2019 2:56pm

OwlsZat wrote:

The police were too busy trying to make up a story to frame Robert Murat... or hiding in the car from rain smoking in their cars.

I think you'll find the McCanns and their friends had a hand in this.

Plumbthedepths · 26-03-2019 3:09pm

cnocbui wrote:

You must have mentioned this ten times by now.

I don't think it is ten times, but unless it's an issue with the moderator I don't see why it's an issue for you.

cnocbui wrote:

You seem to be implying that Sutton as an individual is somehow superior to the Met as a whole, who would know far more about the case than Sutton, since he was never in the loop and never had access to the material the Met have nor spent as much time analysing it.

I'm not implying that at all and somewhat amused as to your agenda here. The Met asked Sutton to lead the investigation but told him the line of enquiry, how do you start an investigation by hamstringing the investigator. Sutton was rang by a senior colleague telling him if the constraints. You're suggesting a senior officer as Sutton was at the time would not be privy to any of the material? The single most famous alledged child abduction case of the last 30 years.Sorry can't take anything you say serious after that.

OwlsZat · 26-03-2019 3:11pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I think you'll find the McCanns and their friends had a hand in this.

That's for you disagreement while providing no counter argument or debate on any of the points made.

OwlsZat · 26-03-2019 3:15pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The same Anna with the photographic memory who saw Madeline's eye colour but not her eye defect. The same Madeline who called herself 'Maddie' to Anna but yet according to Kate, Madeline always corrected people who called her 'Maddie'. Anna got her few minutes of fame but not credible tbh

There's 3 possibly 4 other sightings of the blonde haired woman.

It's your choice to decide however you feel. I've outlined clearly why I conclude what I do. Please to do the same.

Madeleine McCann

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