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Madeleine McCann

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    #5072
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    This is prehaps what you would do, you are projecting what you would do onto the McCanns. Have to honest I think it's incredible arrogance to dismiss something because you feel you know the way someone else would act in a given situation.

    Lets go back a bit now. Why are we even discussing this?

    Because someone said her parents disposed of her by throwing her in the bin.

    So by that logic, we can assume that whoever suggested that is stating what they themselves would do? And also projecting?

    Is it not arrogant to assume they know the way someone else would act in any given situation? As you literally just said yourself?

    Or is it only not ok to speculate if you believe the abduction theory?

    For example, saying they dumped her in a landfill is fine, but discussing why that might not make sense isn't, because I'm "projecting what I would do onto the McCanns"??????


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    #5073
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    yourdeadwright wrote: »

    Sorry but do you have children ?

    If you love your children you do not leave them alone for hours every night of holidays ( she was at kids camp all day so they barley seen her) , You do not let make friends bath them

    They come across as a couple who had children but the children where a burden , they where determined to have "There holiday " regardless of the fact they had children who "NEED" looking after,

    Even after she went missing they left the twins in kid's camp in the same town there daughter was missing ,

    Action speak louder than words they are not your average loving parents ,

    What relevance does whether I have children or not have?

    No one has disputed that leaving them alone at night was wrong.

    She was in kids club from 3:30pm-5:30pm ish on the day she went missing, which by all accounts is not all day.
    There is nothing wrong with utilising kids clubs, they are good for socialisation of children and many many parents use them.

    In all the footage from the aftermath I see two broken people, Kate in particular looks like she's on the verge of collapsing.
    In the footage from beforehand, the home videos, they look like a normal, happy family.

    You see differently, that's fine, that's your perspective & I respect that, but you can't tell me I'm wrong.


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    #5074
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    MD1990 wrote: »
    - Yes the dogs in general are 99% reliable.

    I'd like to see some evidence for that 99% figure.

    We know that there was a FoI request to the South Yorkshire Police for details of their deployments with that force between 2003 and 2007, and the details were refused on the basis that it would cause unnecessary distress to victims. Which seems fair enough, but it does mean that we can't say with any certainty what their track record was, let alone come up with a figure of 99%.

    What we do know is that they weren't reliable in this case. For example, we know that Keela searched the McCann's apartment twice. On 31 July, she searched and didn't alert to the curtains behind the sofa. She was brought back in to search again 3 days later and she did alert.
    We also know that none of their alerts yielded any useful evidence.


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    #5075
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    SusieBlue wrote:
    So by that logic, we can assume that whoever suggested that is stating what they themselves would do? And also projecting?


    Actually it was one of several methods suggested by one particular poster, which tbh I find more credible than the abduction bs.


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    #5076
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Just saw an article in the Sun from yesterday looks like Gerry and Kate will have to pay G Amarals legal costs after they lost their libel case against him. Another 33k out the find Madeline fund I presume.


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    #5077
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Actually it was one of several methods suggested by one particular poster, which tbh I find more credible than the abduction bs.

    No, it's either projection all round or its not, you can't have it both ways.

    Such double standards here.

    It can't be grand when someone says she was dumped in a landfill, and not ok when I state the reasons why I don't think its likely.

    We're all speculating, but you only seem to have a problem when I do it.


  • Options
    #5078
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,124 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    retro:electro wrote: »
    Not at all. It wasn’t meant in absolute terms. I am saying that I don’t judge them for how they may have come across in interviews and appeals for her return and make ridiculous conclusions based on innocuous movements like ear touching. I am saying none of us have any idea how we would come across, and if you’re judging them based on how you believe you would react in that situation that is just unfair. None of us have any idea how we would come across in that situation never mind the fact that most of the world are judging your every eye movement, twitch and hand placement. I empathise with them on that regard, others don’t and find them suspicious as a result.

    No , I am judging them on how they behaved with the safety of their children . Nothing more nothing less . I find Gerry cold and arrogant but give him the benefit of the doubt that its his way of staying in control . I find Kate defensive but again give her that its her way of coping with her own failings .
    As for twitching or not I would be a fool to pretend I could analyise that as I am no expert
    My gut feeling is Gerry is a cold and arrogant man anyway and Kate is protecting herself by being defensive. Thats what I see when I see them . I empathise with their pain , have sympathy with their plight but find them difficult to warm to .


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    #5079
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    SusieBlue wrote:
    We're all speculating, but you only seem to have a problem when I do it.


    I have no problem anyone speculating, when you dismiss a scenario by saying 'debunked' you are suggesting you opinion is fact, if you can't see that we'll what can I say.


  • Options
    #5080
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I have no problem anyone speculating, when you dismiss a scenario by saying 'debunked' you are suggesting you opinion is fact, if you can't see that we'll what can I say.

    And I already explained to that that isn't what I meant, but no worries, round and round we go.


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    #5081
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    No , I am judging them on how they behaved with the safety of their children . Nothing more nothing less .

    Okay that’s fair enough but my post about many lacking the ability to empathise with them was totally in relation to how they conduct themselves in media appeals and interviews, not in relation to their carelessness of leaving their children. Many are in agreement that that was shameful. I could never defend or understand that.


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    #5082
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    It really doesnt bear thinking about where she might have ended up.

    The footage of her climbing the ladder into the plane is heartbreaking, she was a beautiful little girl and she wasnt protected.

    We will probably never know what happened to her but it is probably likely that someone who knew the parents movements may have alerted abductors to the fact that children were being left alone in apartments every evening. She probably was brought across the border into Morocco, the abductors would have had plenty of time to flee with her before the alarm was raised and God knows what happened to her after that.


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    #5083
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,124 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    SusieBlue wrote: »
    What relevance does whether I have children or not have?

    No one has disputed that leaving them alone at night was wrong.

    She was in kids club from 3:30pm-5:30pm ish on the day she went missing, which by all accounts is not all day.
    There is nothing wrong with utilising kids clubs, they are good for socialisation of children and many many parents use them.

    In all the footage from the aftermath I see two broken people, Kate in particular looks like she's on the verge of collapsing.
    In the footage from beforehand, the home videos, they look like a normal, happy family.

    You see differently, that's fine, that's your perspective & I respect that, but you can't tell me I'm wrong.


    https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm


    After breakfast, at around 9/9.30am, the children went to the club called the "KIDS CLUB" where they did various activities such as painting, collage etc. They stayed there until around 12.30pm, constantly supervised by several Ocean Club employees in a ratio of three children to one employee. Within the "Kids Club" because of the difference in ages, the twins were in one group and Madeleine in another, with separate activities.

    At 12.30pm, the parents would collect their children and have lunch in their apartment since they have provisions. After lunch, at around 1.30pm, the children spend time close to the club's swimming pool, supervised by the parents, for about 45 minutes, where they play and have sun cream applied. After this time, they take the children to the "Kids Club" until around 5/5.30pm, the time when the children eat in a bar under the watchful gaze of the parents. After the 5pm dinner, they give the children a bath, prepare them for the night and let them play for a while in a playground next to the tennis courts, still and always under parental supervision. At around 8pm, the children are put to bed until the following morning when the described routines start all over again. While the children are at the "Kids Club," the interviewee played tennis with her husband, went for walks, read or went "Jogging."


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    #5084
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,641 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Accident happened, parents hid body
    SusieBlue wrote: »
    What relevance does whether I have children or not have?


    The relevance is because you said you seen nothing that would make you think they did not love the children,

    If you had children you would surely realises leaving your children alone at night in the circumstance they did
    Allowing male friends to take turn to bath your children ,
    Leaving your twins in kids club again in the same place your child is missing ,

    These are sure fire signs they did not care about there kids like normal parents,
    If you are a parent yourself surely you would never dream of any of the above ,


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    #5085
    OwlsZat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    tretorn wrote: »
    It really doesnt bear thinking about where she might have ended up.

    The footage of her climbing the ladder into the plane is heartbreaking, she was a beautiful little girl and she wasnt protected.

    We will probably never know what happened to her but it is probably likely that someone who knew the parents movements may have alerted abductors to the fact that children were being left alone in apartments every evening. She probably was brought across the border into Morocco, the abductors would have had plenty of time to flee with her before the alarm was raised and God knows what happened to her after that.

    The citings of her in the direction of Morocco were discredited as mistaken identify. While it's possible she went that way it's possibly more likely she went by land through central Europe.


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    #5086
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Allowing male friends to take turn to bath your children ,
    I've seen this being posted a few times now here and elsewhere on the internet. I'm not saying its not true, but I haven't seen any source material for it?


    The only thing I've seen even approaching this is a statement from a friend who was on a previous holiday that included the McCanns who said that on that holiday "it was the fathers who took care of the children's baths" and that she was wary of one of the group that that "and I did not trust him to give bath to E***** alone".
    Has this been wildly extrapolated to ... "allowing male friends to take turn to bath your children"?


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    #5087
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    yourdeadwright wrote: »


    The relevance is because you said you seen nothing that would make you think they did not love the children,

    If you had children you would surely realises leaving your children alone at night in the circumstance they did
    Allowing male friends to take turn to bath your children ,
    Leaving your twins in kids club again in the same place your child is missing ,

    These are sure fire signs they did not care about there kids like normal parents,
    If you are a parent yourself surely you would never dream of any of the above ,

    I'm intentionally ignoring the bolded.
    The bathing thing is all relative to their relationship with their friends. I don't think on its own its a cause for concern.
    My mams friend often brought me swimming with her daughter as a child, no doubt I'd have needed help showering and changing afterwards and I don't think that's sinister or weird.
    Again there is nothing wrong with utilising a kids club, doing so does not make you a bad parent.

    I've already stated that I don't agree with leaving the kids alone.
    Would I let a friend bathe my children? If there was a need to, I'd certainly trust them to, yes.
    And if my children wanted to attend a kids club while on holidays, yes, I'd absolutely let them.

    Would that make me a bad parent? I really really don't think so.


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    #5088
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    They would have been better of leaving the children at home.

    It certainly wasnt a family holiday, it was quite obvious the parents wanted to spend time hanging out with their friends while the children had the same day on holidays as they had at home, ie Madeline in one part of a creche and the twins in another. There is nothing wrong with parents wanting an adult only holiday but to leave three tiny children in an unlocked apartment is negligent and in my eyes anyway raised questions about their fitness as parents.

    It wasnt like they couldnt afford babysitters, that poor child, I hope she didnt suffer too much and I certainly hope she isnt being kept somewhere now to be used in some obscene child porn videos.

    I see that man who was caught in Ireland and who was one of the biggest facilitators of child porn in the world has been deported to the States, he looks perfectly normally, all these people do, they could have been sitting next to the McCanns in the restauarant watching those half hearted attempts to go and check on sleeping infants. It would have been possible to time the group after even one night and then ring someone hanging out near the apartment to alert them when it was safe to enter and take the child.


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    #5089
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm


    After breakfast, at around 9/9.30am, the children went to the club called the "KIDS CLUB" where they did various activities such as painting, collage etc. They stayed there until around 12.30pm, constantly supervised by several Ocean Club employees in a ratio of three children to one employee. Within the "Kids Club" because of the difference in ages, the twins were in one group and Madeleine in another, with separate activities.

    At 12.30pm, the parents would collect their children and have lunch in their apartment since they have provisions. After lunch, at around 1.30pm, the children spend time close to the club's swimming pool, supervised by the parents, for about 45 minutes, where they play and have sun cream applied. After this time, they take the children to the "Kids Club" until around 5/5.30pm, the time when the children eat in a bar under the watchful gaze of the parents. After the 5pm dinner, they give the children a bath, prepare them for the night and let them play for a while in a playground next to the tennis courts, still and always under parental supervision. At around 8pm, the children are put to bed until the following morning when the described routines start all over again. While the children are at the "Kids Club," the interviewee played tennis with her husband, went for walks, read or went "Jogging."

    Every account I have seen of the day she went missing says that she was in kids club from 10 - 12pm, and then went out on boats on a planned excursion from 3:30-5:30pm.
    And regardless, I still don't see it as a cause for concern. They weren't locked in a concentration camp. They were doing fun activities with other children their age.
    I mean, there were plenty of other children there, do they all have negligent parents who don't give a sh*t too, just because they attended?


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    #5090
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,730 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Next person that brings up neglect is being banned form the forum.


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    #5091
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    SusieBlue wrote: »
    I'm intentionally ignoring the bolded.
    The bathing thing is all relative to their relationship with their friends. I don't think on its own its a cause for concern.
    My mams friend often brought me swimming with her daughter as a child, no doubt I'd have needed help showering and changing afterwards and I don't think that's sinister or weird.
    Again there is nothing wrong with utilising a kids club, doing so does not make you a bad parent.

    I've already stated that I don't agree with leaving the kids alone.
    Would I let a friend bathe my children? If there was a need to, I'd certainly trust them to, yes.
    And if my children wanted to attend a kids club while on holidays, yes, I'd absolutely let them.

    Would that make me a bad parent? I really really don't think so.

    It is being alleged that male friends were bathing the children, who lets men friends bathe young daughters. What on earth has your mothers female friend got to do with the Mc Canns allegedly letting men bathe their children naked.

    This probably has nothing to do with Madeleine going missing but it is odd.


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    #5092
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    tretorn wrote: »
    It is being alleged that male friends were bathing the children, who lets men friends bathe young daughters. What on earth has your mothers female friend got to do with the Mc Canns allegedly letting men bathe their children naked.

    This probably has nothing to do with Madeleine going missing but it is odd.

    I’m not saying it’s something I would do myself but maybe they thought it was handier to throw all the kids in the one bath and give them all a wash down while the mothers got ready?
    I’m also not sure what it has to do with Madeleine going missing. It just seems like more pointless character judging of the parents.


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    #5093
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    tretorn wrote: »
    It is being alleged that male friends were bathing the children, who lets men friends bathe young daughters. What on earth has your mothers female friend got to do with the Mc Canns allegedly letting men bathe their children naked.

    This probably has nothing to do with Madeleine going missing but it is odd.

    Where did I say it was a female friend? Its all relative to the situation.
    Depending on the "friend" it might be perfectly ok or it might be a major cause for concern.

    We are assuming and projecting a lot of serious accusations on what might have been a completely innocent situation.

    I haven't actually seen any statements or interviews where it was stated that it even happened anyway, I'd love to see the actual account of where its alleged that all the men swapped kids and bathed each others daughters.
    Not being smart either, if that is true it would certainly sway my opinion... But I can't seem to find anything on it.


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    #5094
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    SusieBlue wrote: »
    I'm intentionally ignoring the bolded.
    The bathing thing is all relative to their relationship with their friends. I don't think on its own its a cause for concern.
    My mams friend often brought me swimming with her daughter as a child, no doubt I'd have needed help showering and changing afterwards and I don't think that's sinister or weird.
    Again there is nothing wrong with utilising a kids club, doing so does not make you a bad parent.

    I've already stated that I don't agree with leaving the kids alone.
    Would I let a friend bathe my children? If there was a need to, I'd certainly trust them to, yes.
    And if my children wanted to attend a kids club while on holidays, yes, I'd absolutely let them.

    Would that make me a bad parent? I really really don't think so.

    Why would there be any need to have men bathing the Mc Cann children. Would you be happy to be showered by a friend of your fathers, why do you not see that a child has the right to their privacy too. There were too adults and three little children and it wasnt like the adults were overworked that wee. They had the children in creche most of the day so surely between them they could have washed the children themselves before heading to the Tapas bar for the evening.

    They were incredibly selfish.


  • Options
    #5095
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    retro:electro wrote: »
    I’m not saying it’s something I would do myself but maybe they thought it was handier to throw all the kids in the one bath and give them all a wash down while the mothers got ready?
    I’m also not sure what it has to do with Madeleine going missing. It just seems like more pointless character judging of the parents.

    It has absolutely no relevance, only to imply that there was possible pedophilia or sexual abuse happening among the group and that the children were willingly put at risk by Kate & Gerry.

    Its adding 2 +2 and getting 117.


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    #5096
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,124 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Every account I have seen of the day she went missing says that she was in kids club from 10 - 12pm, and then went out on boats on a planned excursion from 3:30-5:30pm.
    And regardless, I still don't see it as a cause for concern. They weren't locked in a concentration camp. They were doing fun activities with other children their age.
    I mean, there were plenty of other children there, do they all have negligent parents who don't give a sh*t too, just because they attended?

    She went on a planned excursion with Kids club staff


  • Options
    #5097
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    tretorn wrote: »
    Why would there be any need to have men bathing the Mc Cann children. Would you be happy to be showered by a friend of your fathers, why do you not see that a child has the right to their privacy too. There were too adults and three little children and it wasnt like the adults were overworked that wee. They had the children in creche most of the day so surely between them they could have washed the children themselves before heading to the Tapas bar for the evening.

    They were incredibly selfish.

    Again you are reading something very sinister into something which may not even have happened.


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    #5098
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Well, what your mothers friend female.


  • Options
    #5099
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    tretorn wrote: »
    Well, what your mothers friend female.

    If you have a point to make maybe just make it instead of dancing around it.


  • Options
    #5100
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    SusieBlue wrote: »
    It has absolutely no relevance, only to imply that there was possible pedophilia or sexual abuse happening among the group and that the children were willingly put at risk by Kate & Gerry.

    Its adding 2 +2 and getting 117.

    I certainly dont see it as paedophilia or sexual abuse but its another indication that the Mc Canns were careless with their children. Most parents dont allow men to bathe their children, its an unnecessary risk so why do it when you could just as easily take care of your own children.


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    #5101
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    tretorn wrote: »
    I certainly dont see it as paedophilia or sexual abuse but its another indication that the Mc Canns were careless with their children. Most parents dont allow men to bathe their children, its an unnecessary risk so why do it when you could just as easily take care of your own children.

    I've been looking and I can't even find anything that suggests the McCann's passed their kids around for their nightly bath to various male friends, so I'm not even sure if it happened at this point.

    All I can find is the comment about the previous holiday (not the one where Madeleine went missing) where a friend reported "it was the fathers who took care of the children's baths"

    But that statement is quite ambiguous, because it could also mean they bathed their own children, and not any one elses.

    Is there any actual evidence that they even did what they are being accused of? I'm coming up empty.


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