Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

bilston · 24-03-2019 05:36PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I have signed the petition, I am not a British citizen nor am I living in Britain. I couldn't care to put a figure on it but the fact I can do this proves the petition is susceptible to some unscrupulous behaviour.

Personally the numbers imo are low, considering 2 years there was a guaranteed 17 million against Brexit. We've since had 2 years of a **** show and to date the petition hasn't even racked up the original 17 million.

You don't seem very supportive of the petition...so why did you sign it?

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 05:37PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

My 10-15% came from a quick look at the map...maybe read what I write instead of what you wish to read. In simple terms...run a mouse over the map and you will see the averages...which in many if not the majority of cases are 6-8% of consituents.

The government/MPs are elected by the people, they then put a PM in place. If you have a problem with the process off you go down to your local MPs office and have it out with him or her......the majority in the HoC elected her...youself and your fellow UK citizens voted the parties and MPs into power so you have to live with what she does and she agreed to the WA in its current form on behalf of the UK people.

If she was creating 1 million new high paid jobs, increasing benifits or pumping millions into the NHS would you be complaining about her???

Your government and PM have spent or better said wasted 2 years negotiating the deal with the EU, accepted it and accepted the fact that it was not open for change. The deal is on the table.....the majority of voters wanted out...thats what TM wants to deliver.

Either lobby your local MPs to revoke or accept it, prepare for life outside the EU and stop adopting the childish attitude of many MPs who are throwing their toys out of the pram as they realise they were sold a dud and EU membership aint as bad as it was made out.

I did read what you wrote. The petition isn't suitable for saying how many constituencies would be interested in a People's Vote. Not everyone who wants one signed it.

Why would anyone complain about a functioning government? What an odd question.

Wait a minute. It's childish to sign the petition or march for a People's Vote but turning up to an MP's office is ok? Why is that?

briany · 24-03-2019 05:39PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Just to be clear, changing the law or making policy solely based on petitions is as bad an idea as using a referendum to settle a complex issue.

Even if 20 million people signed it, it wouldn't justify revoking Article 50. It's a helpful measure of public opinion but we have Parliament which is supposed to legislate for the nation. Government by petition is just mob rule.

Correct, but if we're however many days away from a potential no-deal Brexit, it's probably worthwhile for the UK government to take into consideration that Remain is getting a petition with millions of signatures and a march with somewhere around a million people showing up, while Leave is doing a small march from Sunderland to London.

The UK government could choose to ignore all of this, but it's going to give them absolutely nothing to say at the next UK GE. But maybe the plan is to take the lumps in the hope that their electoral opponents will take even bigger ones.

Impetus · 24-03-2019 05:39PM

Is BREXIT not a war between largely Normans ('remainers' - eg more Irish or more Spanish or Italian than the Irish/Spanish/N Italians etc) (ie Norman remainers are largely in S England) and Saxons (Exiters are in E and N England)? The biggest demonstrations against immigration in Germany were in Saxony (eg Leipzig). And one suspects that their Saxon cousins in GB have similar attitudes/DNA. Polychronic (Frankish) German states such as Bavaria and Baden Württemberg do not have similar problems and manage to create great food, beer and cars and one of the highest standards of living in the world (eg Porsche, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi etc).

The Weekend Financial Times (a Japanese owned newspaper) has an interesting story "Who governs Britain".

Google search: who governs britain site:ft.com

Sam Russell · 24-03-2019 05:41PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Just to be clear, changing the law or making policy solely based on petitions is as bad an idea as using a referendum to settle a complex issue.

Even if 20 million people signed it, it wouldn't justify revoking Article 50. It's a helpful measure of public opinion but we have Parliament which is supposed to legislate for the nation. Government by petition is just mob rule.

As is ruling by opinion poll.

MPs are looking at their seats, particularly if they are in a constituency that voted leave, and are covering themselves by not breaking cover. The petition can give cover to vote for a second vote, now that the options are clear.

It is clear that there is a strong media bias in favour of leave, particularly by the BBC. Obviously, the right-wing press is in favour of leave and are prepared to print any lie that might get believed, and even ones that could not be believed.

PokeHerKing · 24-03-2019 05:47PM

bilston wrote:

You don't seem very supportive of the petition...so why did you sign it?

Im certainly supportive of revoking A50 through a second referendum.

What I'm not supportive of is the idea that this petition carries more weight than the referendum result.

Im also far from convinced that British public opinion has swung decidedly to a remain position.

Sam Russell · 24-03-2019 05:48PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Im certainly supportive of revoking A50 through a second referendum.

What I'm not supportive of is the idea that this petition carries more weight than the referendum result.

Im also far from convinced that British public opinion has swung decidedly to a remain position.

Well a second vote will sort that out.

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 05:50PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Im certainly supportive of revoking A50 through a second referendum.

What I'm not supportive of is the idea that this petition carries more weight than the referendum result.

Im also far from convinced that British public opinion has swung decidedly to a remain position.

Nobody here has argued that the petition itself should override the referendum result. That can only be done with another plebiscite.

The march and the petition just give an insight to the scale of the opposition to Brexit, at least in its current form. At least it should be delayed until a solution to the Northern Irish question can be devised.

Irishmale0399 · 24-03-2019 05:56PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

1All a petition like this does is show that there is a lot of people who want a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I did read what you wrote. 1+3The petition isn't suitable for saying how many constituencies would be interested in a People's Vote. Not everyone who wants one signed it.

2Why would anyone complain about a functioning government? What an odd question.

Wait a minute. 3It's childish to sign the petition or march for a People's Vote but turning up to an MP's office is ok? Why is that?

1. It shows a small percentage of the population want something. The referendum showed something totally different, a majority who wanted to leave.

2. If the government is functioning why havent they passed/accepted the WA or put an alternative on the table......in my humble opinion...its far from functioning. If anything its a case of the UK wanting everything their way...problem is they dont know what they want.

1+3. Again if no one lobbies an MP directly why should he or she change their path??? Childish is signing a petition which is clearly open to manipulation as it is open to people who were not in a position to legally vote in the original referendum (same goes for marching) and then claiming it is a bases for a "a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50"

Enough said on the matter, as I said yesterday in my pm I am not going to argue with you on the matter as we clearly have 2 very different opinions on it.....however I would tend to question your neutrality here in the thead as a mod. The topic seems to be one you are very passionate about.....

cml387 · 24-03-2019 05:57PM

Michael Howard was on the World This Weekend.

He said that the best option is to vote for the WA while holding the nose (he of course is now in the Lords so won't be voting).

When the issue of the possible soft Brexit was mentioned, he said that such an outcome was contrary to what people had voted for in 2016.

So there I was shouting at the radio begging the interviewer to ask "And is the WA what people voted for?"

Alas that wasn't asked.

PokeHerKing · 24-03-2019 06:00PM

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Nobody here has argued that the petition itself should override the referendum result. That can only be done with another plebiscite.

Plenty have insinuated as much.

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 06:00PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

1. It shows a small percentage of the population want something. The referendum showed something totally different, a majority who wanted to leave.

Showed. Past tense. If they thought there'd be another leave result, we'd have had another referendum by now. Just as Jacob Rees-Mogg proposed when it was assumed that remain would win.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

2. If the government is functioning why havent they passed/accepted the WA or put an alternative on the table......in my humble opinion...its far from functioning. If anything its a case of the UK wanting everything their way...problem is they dont know what they want.

I didn't say it was functioning. My point was that if it was, there'd be much fewer complaints.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

1+3. Again if no one lobbies an MP directly why should he or she change their path??? Childish is signing a petition which is clearly open to manipulation as it is open to people who were not in a position to legally vote in the original referendum (same goes for marching) and then claiming it is a bases for a "a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50"

Where did I claim that the petition was a sound basis for another referendum? Quote me please.

BobbyBobberson · 24-03-2019 06:01PM

cml387 wrote: »

Michael Howard was on the World This Weekend.

He said that the best option is to vote for the WA while holding the nose (he of course is now in the Lords so won't be voting).

When the issue of the possible soft Brexit was mentioned, he said that such an outcome was contrary to what people had voted for in 2016.

So there I was shouting at the radio begging the interviewer to ask "And is the WA what people voted for?"

Alas that wasn't asked.

Overall I have found the media to poor when holding people to account. Brexiteers have made statements which have been lies but because of their lack of knowledge on the issue the presenter cannot pull them up on it.

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 06:01PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Plenty have insinuated as much.

Quote them please.

PokeHerKing · 24-03-2019 06:06PM

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Quote them please.

Scroll back and read unbiasedly. There's plenty.

Spanish Eyes · 24-03-2019 06:08PM

dresden8 wrote: »

Grieve impressive on Sky. Is he the only adult in the room.

I didn't see the Sky clip, but believe it or not, I made a note on my phone about 18months ago to keep an eye on him. He is quite impressive alright, and I knew he was worth watching.

Pity of it is, he is no longer a member of the Cabinet, so no chance of him taking over as "caretaker" PM if there is a coup.

Or is there?

Professor Moriarty · 24-03-2019 06:10PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I didn't see the Sky clip, but believe it or not, I made a note on my phone about 18months ago to keep an eye on him. He is quite impressive alright, and I knew he was worth watching.

Pity of it is, he is no longer a member of the Cabinet, so no chance of him taking over as "caretaker" PM if there is a coup.

Or is there?

Zero chance. He's too Remain and doesn't have clout in the party.

Irishmale0399 · 24-03-2019 06:11PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

1. Showed. Past tense. If they thought there'd be another leave result, we'd have had another referendum by now. Just as Jacob Rees-Mogg proposed when it was assumed that remain would win.

2. I didn't say it was functioning. My point was that if it was, there'd be much fewer complaints.

1. Where did I claim that the petition was a sound basis for another referendum? Quote me please.

1. Did you or did you not say the following in #3000 "All a petition like this does is show that there is a lot of people who want a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50. It doesn't force the government to do anything but it's better than doing nothing"

A lot of people....is 5million of the population a lot??? What percentage is a lot...for me personally it would have to be close to or above 50%

The petition is still open...so it cannot be past tense....if anything its a present tense.....granted you didnt say sound basis but your post does give the belief using the words a lot of people...better than doing nothing.

2. Wires crossed.....

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 06:13PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

1. Did you or did you not say the following in #3000 "All a petition like this does is show that there is a lot of people who want a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50. It doesn't force the government to do anything but it's better than doing nothing"

A lot of people....is 5million of the population a lot??? What percentage is a lot...for me personally it would have to be close to or above 50%

The petition is still open...so it cannot be past tense....if anything its a present tense.....granted you didnt say sound basis but your post does give the belief using the words a lot of people...better than doing nothing.

Of course I did. I never said we should have a referendum on that basis though. I made that quite clear.

Rain Ascending · 24-03-2019 06:58PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Instead, it looks like we're heading for no deal on Friday while the Brexiters demand the destruction of Institution after Institution because they hold May in check. Meanwhile the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg cash in by betting on a crash-out Brexit. Men of the people indeed.

One bit of good news for you, it seems that the Brexit departure date has already been pushed out to the April 11th date. Have a read of this twitter thread:

https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1109795073460441088

Bottom line is that EU law supersedes UK law and the extension is already a done deal in EU law. Were the House of Commons refuse to bring UK law into line with that, sticking with the March 29th date, the relevant secondary UK legislation would be eventually be ruled to be invalid. Until such a ruling is made, there would be a lot of situations with two sets of regulations, EU and UK, and (legal) chaos would ensue where there is a conflict between the two.

Only a body politic heavily infected with populism and a strong disregard for legal realities would consider such a situation desirable. So it should be safe to say that this won't even be consider... oh ... wait. :cool:

UsedToWait · 24-03-2019 07:00PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

... however I would tend to question your neutrality here in the thead as a mod. The topic seems to be one you are very passionate about.....

I think that's extremely unfair..
This must be one of the most contentious threads on boards, and, in the main, it has been moderated exceptionally well.

Personally, I feel some of those parroting the looniest of the ERG and DUP lines on Brexit, and clearly not prepared to genuinely debate their opinions have been given too much leeway at times, so I'd like to see examples of biased moderation from ancapailldorcha, if you're going to make such insinuations.

BobbyBobberson · 24-03-2019 07:10PM

UsedToWait wrote: »

I think that's extremely unfair..
This must be one of the most contentious threads on boards, and, in the main, it has been moderated exceptionally well.

Personally, I feel some of those parroting the looniest of the ERG and DUP lines on Brexit, and clearly not prepared to genuinely debate their opinions have been given too much leeway at times, so I'd like to see examples of biased moderation from ancapailldorcha, if you're going to make such insinuations.

I agree, I would hate to mod this thread. ancapailldorcha has pulled me up on stuff before and never unfairly.

It is such an enjoyable thread, it moves at a ridiculous pace trying to keep up with the mess that is Brexit.

theguzman · 24-03-2019 07:19PM

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

An Ciarraioch · 24-03-2019 07:24PM

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

When has anyone censored you here? Just fight your corner, and have plenty of facts to hand to back up your arguments.

Inquitus · 24-03-2019 07:26PM

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

You'll end up talking to yourself, anyone who agrees with you is on Farage's march!

SEI_57101502.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C338&ssl=1

BobbyBobberson · 24-03-2019 07:28PM

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

Well sure go start one.

Infini · 24-03-2019 07:32PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

1. It shows a small percentage of the population want something. The referendum showed something totally different, a majority who wanted to leave.

Brexit is an exercise in stupidity of the highest order. People deserve a final say on such a decisive manner. The Brexiteers if they'd lost the first referendum were perfectly willing to continue agitating for it but when they won and got their shot they can't do it without doing it the most damaging and worst way possible. They're incompetents and idiots and as far as I'm concerned hypocrites because they put feeling and ignorance before facts which quite simply makes them unfit. Got a problem with something? Fine come up with a constructive alternative. Cant do it and regress to BS and lies? They dont deserve to get their way then.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

2. If the government is functioning why havent they passed/accepted the WA or put an alternative on the table......in my humble opinion...its far from functioning. If anything its a case of the UK wanting everything their way...problem is they dont know what they want.

They literally should have renamed the conservative's to the Colosseum party because they constantly have the knives out to back stab one another. They put selfish self interest before the national interest and party before country, that's why they're in such a mess because they cant agree a constructive way out that is both responsible and orderly. They didn't agree a cross party consensus for such a drastic national change and now its biting them in the arse big time hence why they've become locked in infighting and oppertunistic sniping.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

1+3. Again if no one lobbies an MP directly why should he or she change their path??? Childish is signing a petition which is clearly open to manipulation as it is open to people who were not in a position to legally vote in the original referendum (same goes for marching) and then claiming it is a bases for a "a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50"

Your too quick to dismiss the petition as simple childishness. Look at the difference between the remain and leave protests. Leave is barely 150 odd people march being led by the king of idiots Farage (who's too lazy to even walk it himself) who protest based on slogans and emotion. Meanwhile the biggest protest since the Iraqi war has taken place in London because many of them are seriously worried bout their futures and because the government has made a total bollocks of the whole thing. May needlessly closing off escape routes and paying to much attention to the European Troll Group isnt making things any better and they risk their countrys future with this rudderless immature BS. If they cant commit they should quit and have another vote rather than run the country off the cliffs of dover for the sake of ignorant stupidity and leave a huge mess for everyone inside and outside Britain to clean up.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Enough said on the matter, as I said yesterday in my pm I am not going to argue with you on the matter as we clearly have 2 very different opinions on it.....however I would tend to question your neutrality here in the thead as a mod. The topic seems to be one you are very passionate about.....

Ah would you stop with that now. Poor mods have enough to deal with in this thread considering its the biggest topic on what will essentially become the "How to wreck your country for idiots".

robinph · 24-03-2019 07:33PM

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

Post away about the positive points regarding brexit if you have anything other than blue passports, would be delighted to hear what they are.

Infini · 24-03-2019 07:33PM

Inquitus wrote: »

You'll end up talking to yourself, anyone who agrees with you is on Farage's march!

MEANWHILE in another city...

POLITICS%20411.jpg

theguzman wrote: »

This thread is entirely anti-Brexit, I think there should be a separate thread for those opposed to the EU and in favour of Brexit.

And then next thing it will be the thread is an echo chamber or a remoaner room or a safe space?

Seriously the real problem with those who support Brexit is when challenged with facts and how people will be affected and when blatent lies (the bullshít bus example) are pointed out you cant concede the point that you might be wrong, that's why Brexit is such a mess people who want this when confronted with the problems either ignore them or try to hand-wave them away ignoring the responsibilities. That's why Brexit is bad because there's no good arguments about it and worse the only option now seems to crash out in a colossal wreck of failure and ignorant stupidity. If you got a good argument for it make it and back it up with facts, don't whinge when the hypcracy, ignorance and holes in your argument's are highlighted because that means your wrong and refusing to concede that point.

theguzman · 24-03-2019 07:36PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

When has anyone censored you here? Just fight your corner, and have plenty of facts to hand to back up your arguments.

I have been infracted and banned three times simply for having a pro-Brexit point of view.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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