Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Inquitus · 24-03-2019 04:29PM

theguzman wrote: »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2019/03/21/anti-brexit-petition-in-u-k-parliament-can-be-signed-by-anyone-anywhere/

That proves nothing.

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 04:31PM

theguzman wrote: »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2019/03/21/anti-brexit-petition-in-u-k-parliament-can-be-signed-by-anyone-anywhere/

And proof that millions of non-British people DID sign it please.

BobbyBobberson · 24-03-2019 04:31PM

robinph wrote: »

The data showing where people have signed up from is available on the petition website, and the post code distribution is shown on a map linked from it.

Point out if you spot anything dubious in that data.

Indeed, makes interesting reading. The petitions website has said 95% of votes were inside the UK.

Inquitus · 24-03-2019 04:32PM

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Indeed, makes interesting reading. The petitions website has said 95% of votes were inside the UK.

And British citizens living overseas are allowed to "officially" sign it as well. The distribution of votes map also tallies strongly with the referendum vote, in all likelyhood it is 90%+ legit.

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 04:33PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Can you prove they're not? The simple fact is that anyone with an Internet connection and an email can vote in it.

I didn't make the claim so the burden of proof isn't on me.

PokeHerKing · 24-03-2019 04:34PM

Inquitus wrote:

And British citizens living overseas are allowed to "officially" sign it as well. The distribution of votes map also tallies strongly with the referendum vote, in all likelyhood it is 90%+ legit.

Which brings us to the second point(less). Its the same people who already voted against Brexit signing it.

branie2 · 24-03-2019 04:37PM

The number of petitioners have passed the five million mark.

FrancieBrady · 24-03-2019 04:39PM

branie2 wrote: »

The number of petitioners have passed the five million mark.

The question is, what is the point of this?
We know already that there are 16m Remainers.

Inquitus · 24-03-2019 04:39PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Which brings us to the second point(less). Its the same people who already voted against Brexit signing it.

Democracy is about opinions changing over time, and allowing that change in the voters thinking to be manifested periodically via a democratic vote. The leave the EU portion of the Referendum covered everything from Norway to WTO, now that whats on offer has been clarified it is certainly undemocratic to not allow people to express any change in thought they might have had in the intervening 3 years.

The only reason Brexiteers are scared of it is because they know they'll lose!

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 04:41PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The question is, what is the point of this?
We know already that there are 16m Remainers.

Any petition that gets 10,000 must get a response from the government. Some are selected for a debate in the House of Commons.

All a petition like this does is show that there is a lot of people who want a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50. It doesn't force the government to do anything but it's better than doing nothing.

Calina · 24-03-2019 04:42PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Can you prove they're not? The simple fact is that anyone with an Internet connection and an email can vote in it.

I believe the overwhelming majority have voted from the UK. This can be traced and iirc, the petitions team have confirmed this.

BobbyBobberson · 24-03-2019 04:47PM

From the website.

Parliament considers all petitions that get more than 100,000 signatures for a debate

Government responds to all petitions that get more than 10,000 signatures

https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584

Gives a percentage of how many constituents voted too.

Irishmale0399 · 24-03-2019 04:48PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Any petition that gets 10,000 must get a response from the government. Some are selected for a debate in the House of Commons.

All a petition like this does is show that there is a lot of people who want a People's Vote or a revocation of Article 50. It doesn't force the government to do anything but it's better than doing nothing.

But why would an MP start a debate about something that doesnt seem to appeal to more than 10-15% of his or her constituents??? Having had a quick look at the map and the stats behind it you are probably talking about 8-9% on average UK wide.

Instead of doing nothing the government that you seem to have voted for should be coming together to support the withdrawal agreement which is on the table and was negociated by your elected PM to prevent a hard Brexit and further damage to the image of the UK worldwide. Kicking the can and blaming the others is school ground stuff.....the EU have been very clear that it wont reopen the deal so get on with it.

Infini · 24-03-2019 04:54PM

theguzman wrote: »

Amazingly 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union, a simple petition with millions of non British citizens voting in it will not over-rule the democratic mandate of the Referendum to leave the EU in 2016. It is a really pathetic attempt by the hard-left to derail the democratic process at all costs.

Which is all well and good saying so UNTIL

1)Vote was non binding,
2)Had vote been binding it would have been rendered null and void due to leave campaign cheating,
3)Would have been a rerun at least at that point
4)Was based on misinformation and outright lies and deceit,
5)17.4mil is about 23% of the population hardly an overwhelming majority hell not even 1/4 of the population,
6)Vote was primarily carried in England and Wales, Clear remain votes in NI and Scotland,
7)3 years have passed and no one on either side is happy,
8)Staying costs nothing compared to losing everything by leaving,
9)No deal is not a plan its an unnecessary avoidable car crash of a disaster,
10)Leave hasn't lead a poll in over a year,
11)Did i forget to mention that leave won on lies and didn't have a plan because they didnt expect to win?
12)Hard Brexit risk a re-ignition of civil disorder in NI
13)The only viable plan to withdraw has been rejected by parliament twice due to being obviously worse than membership
14)No viable alternatives other than either a 2nd referendum or remain, no deal will cause end of UK as its known.
15)Parliament can vote multiple times on deals and plans yet people cannot have a 2nd vote to either accept or remain
16)Pointless needless and utterly incompetent conservatives driving this not Labour.
17)March yesterday nearly the highest since the Iraqi War protests, meanwhile Farage has something like 100 odd for leave.
18)The vote was won by a small margin not decisively and not fairly.

I could go on but I think I've made plenty of points to this effect. Your reasoning is blinkered, your argument is quite literally weak its the same as the "leave means leave" mantra, Just because you won a vote doesn't mean you can get your way with no responsibility whatsoever, if you win you must have a plan to follow, responsibilities don't go out the window just because you feel like it.

The obvious choice would be a vote between the deal or remain but the Brexiteers don't want this because they know they wont win twice, the tides turned against them and they're trying to keep the claws in their leave plans despite the fact that leave is no longer a plan its a disaster that will destroy the current UK inside a decade. Ignorance and Incompetence don't get you anything.

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 04:57PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

But why would an MP start a debate about something that doesnt seem to appeal to more than 10-15% of his or her constituents??? Having had a quick look at the map and the stats behind it you are probably talking about 8-9% on average UK wide.

Instead of doing nothing the government that you seem to have voted for should be coming together to support the withdrawal agreement which is on the table and was negociated by your elected PM to prevent a hard Brexit and further damage to the image of the UK worldwide. Kicking the can and blaming the others is school ground stuff.....the EU have been very clear that it wont reopen the deal so get on with it.

Where are you getting that 10-15% figure from exactly?

When did we elect the PM? I recall her being elected as MP for Maidenhead. We don't elect our head of state, the membership of the governing party do.

Why should we welcome a terrible deal that neither remainers or leavers want? It's despised by both for a reason.

trashcan · 24-03-2019 05:02PM

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

The hard left? Really?

Ah, the hard left are to blame for everything dontcha know.

BobbyBobberson · 24-03-2019 05:03PM

trashcan wrote: »

Ah, the hard left are to blame for everything dontcha know.

Ha, exactly. I somehow doubt Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are signing that petition :pac:

WhiteMan32 · 24-03-2019 05:08PM

Up to just a couple of days ago, the two most extreme & opposing views on the Brexit crisis were Leave with No-Deal vs Second Referendum. This online petition now makes Revoking Article 50 as Remainers even more extreme choice. With that, it should hopefully make the option of a Second Referendum come across as more moderate and rational than it has been looked upon by some MPs up to now.

Also, the petition has made it onto the mainstream news - BBC, Sky etc - because at 5m-plus signatures, it is now the most popular petition ever on UK parliament website.

Inquitus · 24-03-2019 05:10PM

WhiteMan32 wrote: »

Up to just a couple of days ago, the two most extreme & opposing views on the Brexit crisis were Leave with No-Deal vs Second Referendum. This online petition now makes Revoking Article 50 as Remainers even more extreme choice. With that, it should hopefully make the option of a Second Referendum come across as more moderate and rational than it has been looked upon by some MPs up to now.

Also, the petition has made it onto the mainstream news - BBC, Sky etc - because at 5m-plus signatures, it is now the most popular petition ever on UK parliament website.

I do think most rational remainers understand the only practical way to revoke A50 is to have a referendum to legitimise it.

devnull · 24-03-2019 05:15PM

Inquitus wrote: »

Seems May has a new plan, have indicative votes, and if the outcome conflicts with the Tory Manifesto, which if they reach a majority conclusion it likely will, then threaten her MP's with a GE and have another go at MV3. Effectively My Deal or a long delay and a GE.

So basically Theresa May is saying that if you vote for a No Deal, which goes against the Tory manifesto, then May will accept it and that will be the end of it because she agrees with it, but if you vote for something I don't like that is against the manifesto then I'm not going to allow that and am going to threaten you with an election? And she calls that democracy?

As usual with Theresa May it's one rule for one thing and one for another, even in her letter which outlined four options last week she said that she would be against a long delay and withdrawing article 50, which left two options, her deal and no deal. It was noticeable she said nothing negative about no deal, just that the parliament ruled it out.

The time has come for removal of the whip, indicative votes in parliament and an agreement that whatever is voted for will be implemented. Saying that certain votes have to be abided by and implemented if they are won if they suit your agenda and saying other votes which don't which are won will not be respected and used for the basis of threatening an election is not democracy.

Shelga · 24-03-2019 05:17PM

Inquitus wrote: »

I do think most rational remainers understand the only practical way to revoke A50 is to have a referendum to legitimise it.

I agree, I don’t think you can unilaterally revoke without consulting the people again. I voted Remain in 2016 and refused to sign the petition that was going around a few days later as it really seemed like sore losers stamping their feet. I assumed the government would get on with it and reach an agreement that would move things forward and gain majority support.

However, having witnessed the complete and utter **** show of the last 33 months, I now think there is a strong argument to be made that it’s just too late and article 50 must be revoked. This was Brexiters’ one chance to get Brexit right and they have completely and utterly blown it. I now see no other deal would ever have been possible. It’s gone worse than anyone ever could have possibly imagined.

They either need a long extension with the express purpose of holding a second referendum on May’s deal vs Remain, or if that doesn’t work, revoke article 50 at the last minute. Time for people to be honest and admit they completely blew their one chance.

dresden8 · 24-03-2019 05:19PM

Grieve impressive on Sky. Is he the only adult in the room.

BobbyBobberson · 24-03-2019 05:20PM

dresden8 wrote: »

Grieve impressive on Sky. Is he the only adult in the room.

He always comes across very well doesnt he? I have seen him on Newsnight before and he was very good.

bilston · 24-03-2019 05:25PM

theguzman wrote: »

Amazingly 17,410,742 people voted to leave the European Union, a simple petition with millions of non British citizens voting in it will not over-rule the democratic mandate of the Referendum to leave the EU in 2016. It is a really pathetic attempt by the hard-left to derail the democratic process at all costs.

Millions of non British citizens?

You see posts like this are dangerous. The more naive out there might actually believe you...but I'm sure you knew that already.

Inquitus · 24-03-2019 05:26PM

devnull wrote: »

So basically Theresa May is saying that if you vote for a No Deal, which goes against the Tory manifesto, then May will accept it and that will be the end of it because she agrees with it, but if you vote for something I don't like that is against the manifesto then I'm not going to allow that and am going to threaten you with an election? And she calls that democracy?

As usual with Theresa May it's one rule for one thing and one for another, even in her letter which outlined four options last week she said that she would be against a long delay and withdrawing article 50, which left two options, her deal and no deal. It was noticeable she said nothing negative about no deal, just that the parliament ruled it out.

The time has come for removal of the whip, indicative votes in parliament and an agreement that whatever is voted for will be implemented. Saying that certain votes have to be abided by and implemented if they are won if they suit your agenda and saying other votes which don't which are won will not be respected and used for the basis of threatening an election is not democracy.

I am not an expert in the ways of Parliament, but Indicative votes are non binding and the Government would have to choose whether to bring those results to a binding legal vote, an Act of Parliament. Something she seems to be indicating she won't do as any likely consensus outcome will violate the Tory Manifesto, her red lines yada yada. So its within her power at that point to try and call a GE with a 2/3 vote of Parliament pursuant to the fixed term Parliament act. Only the Government can bring an Act of Parliament to the table, so in essence she does still hold the power while she is in power, and Parliament cannot do much, though it is not constitutionally acceptable for her to go against the will of Parliament.

That said she still does need to pass a number of Acts of Parliament ahead of Brexit day and these could be amended, so while the HoC cannot get what they want to vote on on the table, they can wreck Acts the Government need to pass ahead of Brexit.

Clear as mud eh?

PokeHerKing · 24-03-2019 05:29PM

bilston wrote:

You see posts like this are dangerous. The more naive out there might actually believe you...but I'm sure you knew that already.

I have signed the petition, I am not a British citizen nor am I living in Britain. I couldn't care to put a figure on it but the fact I can do this proves the petition is susceptible to some unscrupulous behaviour.

Personally the numbers imo are low, considering 2 years there was a guaranteed 17 million against Brexit. We've since had 2 years of a **** show and to date the petition hasn't even racked up the original 17 million.

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 05:30PM

Shelga wrote: »

I agree, I don’t think you can unilaterally revoke without consulting the people again. I voted Remain in 2016 and refused to sign the petition that was going around a few days later as it really seemed like sore losers stamping their feet. I assumed the government would get on with it and reach an agreement that would move things forward and gain majority support.

However, having witnessed the complete and utter **** show of the last 33 months, I now think there is a strong argument to be made that it’s just too late and article 50 must be revoked. This was Brexiters’ one chance to get Brexit right and they have completely and utterly blown it. I now see no other deal would ever have been possible. It’s gone worse than anyone ever could have possibly imagined.

They either need a long extension with the express purpose of holding a second referendum on May’s deal vs Remain, or if that doesn’t work, revoke article 50 at the last minute. Time for people to be honest and admit they completely blew their one chance.

I didn't wake up on the 24 June 2016 thinking that we needed a rerun. I accepted the result and hoped that the government would get on with things. The common sense policy was to reassure EU migrants residing in the UK as well as UK citizens in the EU of their rights and status, settle the "divorce bill" ASAP and begin negotiating as soon as consensus could be found.

Instead, Cameron ran off to his garden shed and we got a quasi-election in the Conservative party which fell apart when one Andrea Leadsom reckoned producing a child made her superior to her rival. May then dithered with invoking Article 50 (devised by Lord Kerr) while EU citizens such as myself got to spend years in limbo. It took the EU insisting on sorting out the final payment, EU citizens' rights and the backstop for Northern Ireland.

The May called an election which weakened her further and placed her in thrall to the DUP, a party many on the mainland consider reprehensible, at least in my experience. After dumping so much of the precious two years of the Article 50 notice period, we end up with this pathetic Withdrawal Agreement that pleases nobody.

Norwegians have twice voted against full EU membership so successive governments did the only logical thing which was to align as closely as possible with Brussels while eschewing full membership. It's worked out quite nicely for them as far as I can tell. May should have requested an extension ages ago with membership of both the single market and customs union until consensus could be forged with regards to Northern Ireland. This would have protected Britain's services-based economy from damage until a way forward could be discerned.

Instead, it looks like we're heading for no deal on Friday while the Brexiters demand the destruction of Institution after Institution because they hold May in check. Meanwhile the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg cash in by betting on a crash-out Brexit. Men of the people indeed.

bilston · 24-03-2019 05:30PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The question is, what is the point of this?
We know already that there are 16m Remainers.

With these indicative votes possibly on the horizon I feel it is all to play for again. As a remainer I don't see how it can hurt signing it.

If nothing else it made me feel better about the whole mess for a few minutes!

ancapailldorcha · 24-03-2019 05:32PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I have signed the petition, I am not a British citizen nor am I living in Britain. I couldn't care to put a figure on it but the fact I can do this proves the petition is susceptible to some unscrupulous behaviour.

Personally the numbers imo are low, considering 2 years there was a guaranteed 17 million against Brexit. We've since had 2 years of a **** show and to date the petition hasn't even racked up the original 17 million.

Just to be clear, changing the law or making policy solely based on petitions is as bad an idea as using a referendum to settle a complex issue.

Even if 20 million people signed it, it wouldn't justify revoking Article 50. It's a helpful measure of public opinion but we have Parliament which is supposed to legislate for the nation. Government by petition is just mob rule.

Irishmale0399 · 24-03-2019 05:33PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Where are you getting that 10-15% figure from exactly?

When did we elect the PM? I recall her being elected as MP for Maidenhead. We don't elect our head of state, the membership of the governing party do.

Why should we welcome a terrible deal that neither remainers or leavers want? It's despised by both for a reason.

My 10-15% came from a quick look at the map...maybe read what I write instead of what you wish to read. In simple terms...run a mouse over the map and you will see the averages...which in many if not the majority of cases are 6-8% of consituents.

The government/MPs are elected by the people, they then put a PM in place. If you have a problem with the process off you go down to your local MPs office and have it out with him or her......the majority in the HoC elected her...youself and your fellow UK citizens voted the parties and MPs into power so you have to live with what she does and she agreed to the WA in its current form on behalf of the UK people.

If she was creating 1 million new high paid jobs, increasing benifits or pumping millions into the NHS would you be complaining about her???

Your government and PM have spent or better said wasted 2 years negotiating the deal with the EU, accepted it and accepted the fact that it was not open for change. The deal is on the table.....the majority of voters wanted out...thats what TM wants to deliver.

Either lobby your local MPs to revoke or accept it, prepare for life outside the EU and stop adopting the childish attitude of many MPs who are throwing their toys out of the pram as they realise they were sold a dud and EU membership aint as bad as it was made out.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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