Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha · 23-03-2019 09:45PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Corbyn supporters will point to the fact that he tried to pursue a vote for a second referendum (20 January this year I think) as proof that he his following the Labour pledge. But the optics of him not attending the march today and his lackluster performance when it comes to a second referendum spell out the truth for me. At least his attack dogs, Owen Jones and Aron Bastani and the likes, did not mock the march again today like they did the previous one. They sent out good luck messages but that is probably as they realised what hypocrites they were for not supporting it.

Well, that's two out of two marches involving many hundreds of thousands he's missed. Labour for a Socialist Europe were there and there were people distributing socialist literature such as Solidarity.

Labour is supposed to oppose the government. Missing this in such a visible way is catastrophic. If Corbyn had something equally important, that'd be one thing but this just shows him to be an ideologue who is more concerned with himself that the people he says he wants to govern for.

Enzokk wrote: »

As for sending death threats to the person who started the petition, that is a totally normal reaction. I mean who doesn't like to threaten the person who is in your way? This is why a second referendum is needed I think, to make sure that this is what the people in the UK wants. Going around in circles and ignoring the illegality of the Leave campaign and the realities that we know now should be tested again in a vote. Those ridiculing it should realise that the benefits for them with another win will cement the Brexit they want. The other option is that it is not the will of the people, and how you can be upset by supporting democracy seems just strange to me.

It shouldn't be normal. Nor should Anna Soubry needing escorts in central London be normal. Lloyd Russell-Moyle, MP for Brighton Kemptown near where I used to live was assaulted outside a Morrisons while speaking to People's Vote campaigners (Source). The Tories have done everything possible to widen the divide in British society and now they have the gall to use the threat of furthering that to undermine the campaign for a People's Vote.

Calina · 23-03-2019 09:45PM

sink wrote: »

We don't need to leave the EU to join the commonwealth. It's not an either/or option. We can be in both. The benefits of being in both are the fact that the majority of commonwealth members are not in the EU, so we expand our diplomatic footprint.

We do not need to be in the Commonwealth to do this. And we are heavily expanding our diplomatic footprint also in South America. Plus we already punch far above our weight. The Commonwealth may be detrimental to that.

Headshot · 23-03-2019 09:55PM

Corbyn should of been leading the protest today and could of been his biggest moment since becoming Labour leader but just shows how out of touch he is and with him in charge Labour will go no where and rot into obscurity

Valhallapt · 23-03-2019 09:59PM

What harm is there in joining the commonwealth?

I don’t see much value in the organization itself, but I think many unionists would welcome it, and if we’re to have a new Ireland their opinion is as valid as everyone else’s.

eire4 · 23-03-2019 10:02PM

sink wrote: »

I'm not hearing any reasons to be anti-commonwealth other than it was founded by the British and has the British monarch as its symbolic head. If being anti-British are the only reasons for not joining then I think it qualifies as having a chip on ones shoulder.

Or maybe you just have an agenda and refuse to acknowledge that looking at the incompetence of the British government and not wanting to be part of any organization that is heading by said government is a perfectly valid reason. Or the fact that we are more then capable of doing it ourselves. Not surprising given your post you don't want to hear that another Irishman has valid ideas contrary to yours.

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2019 10:05PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

What harm is there in joining the commonwealth?

I don’t see much value in the organization itself, but I think many unionists would welcome it, and if we’re to have a new Ireland their opinion is as valid as everyone else’s.

The harm is, we are a republic. I don't care if other republics are members, in my opinion we would lose integrity being subordinates to a monarch in any organisation.

Unionists may like it, but we cannot undermine any new state just to appease.

Lemming · 23-03-2019 10:14PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

What harm is there in joining the commonwealth?

I don’t see much value in the organization itself, but I think many unionists would welcome it, and if we’re to have a new Ireland their opinion is as valid as everyone else’s.

Bear in mind, this is Jeffery Donaldson who made this suggestion. The same Jeffery Donaldson who concocted the "Love Ulster" parade. The commonwealth suggestion is - like the love ulster parade - an attempt at trolling. He's trying to stir the pot to find ammunition to play against the home gallery should he find their support for the DUP and/or the union wavering. We could rejoin. And then what? It wouldn't solve anything; we'd still be part of the EU so what exactly does he hope to achieve (save trolling for ammunition) ?

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2019 10:23PM

Lemming wrote: »

Bear in mind, this is Jeffery Donaldson who made this suggestion. The same Jeffery Donaldson who concocted the "Love Ulster" parade. The commonwealth suggestion is - like the love ulster parade - an attempt at trolling. He's trying to stir the pot to find ammunition to play against the home gallery should he find their support for the DUP and/or the union wavering. We could rejoin. And then what? It wouldn't solve anything; we'd still be part of the EU so what exactly does he hope to achieve (save trolling for ammunition) ?

And from a crew who can't even bring themselves to recognise our gaining of independence by attending centenary events.

Valhallapt · 23-03-2019 10:24PM

I’ve gone from being very concerned about a Hard Brexit, to an almost Bring It On attitude.

I don’t in any way see how being part of the commonwealth could diminish us as a nation.

I do see having a non invisible border as having a diminishing effect.

I think many unionists think the south is not welcoming for them, if a border poll is to be won, we need to make the British identity part of this irelands identity.

A hard Brexit looks increasingly likely, if it happens the North will be hard hit in every sense, we need to start the discussion about what a new Ireland looks like.

ancapailldorcha · 23-03-2019 10:24PM

Lemming wrote: »

Bear in mind, this is Jeffery Donaldson who made this suggestion. The same Jeffery Donaldson who concocted the "Love Ulster" parade. The commonwealth suggestion is - like the love ulster parade - an attempt at trolling. He's trying to stir the pot to find ammunition to play against the home gallery should he find their support for the DUP and/or the union wavering. We could rejoin. And then what? It wouldn't solve anything; we'd still be part of the EU so what exactly does he hope to achieve (save trolling for ammunition) ?

Ulster Unionism, since the days of Carson and Craig has been solely about self-interest and opposition to any sort of change or compromise whatsoever.

It's easy for people like Donaldson to suggest unicorns like Ireland rejoining the UK simply to appear to his support base like he's making perfectly reasonable suggestions and so he'll be able to shift the blame when, not if the time comes.

Valhallapt · 23-03-2019 10:27PM

Lemming wrote: »

Bear in mind, this is Jeffery Donaldson who made this suggestion. The same Jeffery Donaldson who concocted the "Love Ulster" parade. The commonwealth suggestion is - like the love ulster parade - an attempt at trolling. He's trying to stir the pot to find ammunition to play against the home gallery should he find their support for the DUP and/or the union wavering. We could rejoin. And then what? It wouldn't solve anything; we'd still be part of the EU so what exactly does he hope to achieve (save trolling for ammunition) ?

I totally agree he is trolling. But I say let take the high ground. Just can’t see how being a member of an irrelevant organization can hurt us .

Spanish Eyes · 23-03-2019 10:30PM

We should ask DUP to agree to a United Ireland as a foil to us joining the Commonwealth. See how his face might look then.

Inquitus · 23-03-2019 10:39PM

Take it with the pre-requisite 500kg of salt that the Daily Mail requires:

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1109566535725654016

Strazdas · 23-03-2019 10:40PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

What harm is there in joining the commonwealth?

I don’t see much value in the organization itself, but I think many unionists would welcome it, and if we’re to have a new Ireland their opinion is as valid as everyone else’s.

The arguments against seem to be coming chiefly from Irish republicans with a big chip on their shoulder. Countries like India suffered far more from British rule in the 20th century than Ireland did and yet are totally relaxed about membership of it.

Lemming · 23-03-2019 10:41PM

Valhallapt wrote: »

I totally agree he is trolling. But I say let take the high ground. Just can’t see how being a member of an irrelevant organization can hurt us .

I never gave comment either way on whether or not to join; only to note that the person doing the suggesting has ulterior motive and is a troll with previous form.

I'm ambivalent on the notion of the commonwealth. It doesn't really amount to much in this day and age anyway that isn't already replicated by other organisations to a far superior degree e.g. the EU vs. the UK's unilateral scraps from the dinner plate to commonwealth citizens (how's that working out for the windrush generation?). Had the suggestion been made three or four years ago, I'd not be disinclined to roll with it.

But now? No. And why?

Brexit has broken (or unlocked depending on semantic arguments) something fundamental in the British psyche, with many people believing it to have given tacit approval to their racist leanings and thus acceptable to assert or act on such leanings in public. Having a country join (never mind re-join) the Commonwealth at this juncture would only have such people and the media & politicians egging them on crowing to the heavens and making an intolerable situation even worse.

TL;DR? Don't feed the trolls.

Inquitus · 23-03-2019 10:41PM

Strazdas wrote: »

The arguments against seem to be coming chiefly from Irish republicans with a big chip on their shoulder. Countries like India suffered far more from British rule in the 20th century than Ireland did and yet are totally relaxed about membership of it.

If it's required as an olive branch to the Unionists as part of a United Ireland vote / deal then I would have no issues with it, its not very consequential and brings very little up or downside.

Headshot · 23-03-2019 10:45PM

Inquitus wrote: »

Take it with the pre-requisite 500kg of salt that the Daily Mail requires:

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1109566535725654016

How can they get her out though when Tories failed before?

Mr.Nice Guy · 23-03-2019 10:49PM

Inquitus wrote: »

If it's required as an olive branch to the Unionists as part of a United Ireland vote / deal then I would have no issues with it, its not very consequential and brings very little up or downside.

This is the way I feel about it. I've no issue with it if it's part of the reunification process following a border poll vote since unionists would want reassurances about their right to identify as British, and membership could be useful in that respect.

As regards May, this is from the political editor of The Sunday Times...

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1109566443132252160

Inquitus · 23-03-2019 10:50PM

Headshot wrote: »

How can they get her out though when Tories failed before?

The entire Cabinet could threaten to resign making her position utterly untenable. It would take something drastic like that, but I think the Brexiteer component are worried their Brexit could be snatched away from them and as such given the chaotic nature of these times, it could happen early next week. Many things can happen thought and I think the Tory Parliamentary Party at large would prefer David Lidington so I would tend to ignore the Mail's wishful Gove thinking.

prawnsambo · 23-03-2019 10:51PM

Headshot wrote: »

How can they get her out though when Tories failed before?

Force her to resign. That's not easy when you're dealing with someone like May, but they could make her position untenable. You can't be PM if your own party ignore you.

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2019 10:55PM

Strazdas wrote: »

The arguments against seem to be coming chiefly from Irish republicans with a big chip on their shoulder. Countries like India suffered far more from British rule in the 20th century than Ireland did and yet are totally relaxed about membership of it.

Why wouldn't Republicans be against it? It's a perfectly understandable stance from those who have first hand experience of trusting the UK.
What about their antics for the last three years convinces that being in any union with them is not toxic?

Inquitus · 23-03-2019 11:00PM

The wheels seem to be coming off for real this time:

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1109574905253806080

Valhallapt · 23-03-2019 11:01PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

As regards May, this is from the political editor of The Sunday Times...

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1109566443132252160

More moving of deck chairs before the ship finally succumbs to the iceberg.

Spanish Eyes · 23-03-2019 11:05PM

Who will replace her if she is persuaded to resign? I don't think anyone wants her job right now, so are happy to keep here there pro tem.

In any case there cannot be a no confidence vote for a good while yet. But I suppose if a majority in the Commons call for one it might happen. Anyone know more about the rules of no confidence?

Inquitus · 23-03-2019 11:07PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Who will replace her if she is persuaded to resign? I don't think anyone wants her job right now, so are happy to keep here there pro tem.

In any case there cannot be a no confidence vote for a good while yet. But I suppose if a majority in the Commons call for one it might happen. Anyone know more about the rules of no confidence?

They are talking about a Cabinet coup to install an interim leader until a Tory leadership contest can be completed, seems like the options are Gove or Lidington.

prawnsambo · 23-03-2019 11:08PM

Inquitus wrote: »

The wheels seem to be coming off for real this time:

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1109574905253806080

It had to happen. But this is flight 401 descending into the everglades with a faulty nose gear light territory. They'll all be so busy getting the faulty light sorted out that they'll forget the ground is coming up to meet them.

Inquitus · 23-03-2019 11:09PM

Spanish Eyes · 23-03-2019 11:11PM

Inquitus wrote: »

They are talking about a Cabinet coup to install an interim leader until a Tory leadership contest can be completed, seems like the options are Gove or Lidington.

Thanks, not doubting you, but would that be legal or would Bercow or some other constitutional expert/Attorney General be able to refute it.

What a total and utter mess. BTW I would prefer Lidington to that toad Gove any day. Still, it ain't my country, but their actions will impact on all of us.

Stacksofwacks · 23-03-2019 11:12PM

Watching this video a no deal brexit may not even be allowed to happen, legally

Inquitus · 23-03-2019 11:17PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Thanks, not doubting you, but would that be legal or would Bercow or some other constitutional expert/Attorney General be able to refute it.

What a total and utter mess. BTW I would prefer Lidington to that toad Gove any day. Still, it ain't my country, but their actions will impact on all of us.

It would be legal, but she has to agree to resign, there is no mechanism to force her to resign, the only mechanism that could force her out was the Tory confidence vote that failed and cannot be repeated until Dec. Obviously there comes a point where your position is untenable and how could she really stay on if all her Cabinet threatened or did resign? Even Thatcher resigned in the end even though she won the first round of the leadership contest, because she felt her position was untenable due to not gaining enough votes to win the contest in the first ballot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election#First_ballot

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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