Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

PokeHerKing · 22-03-2019 02:58PM

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Nobody is saying that. All a petition can do is force a debate in Parliament.

The person I quoted said exactly that a page or so back. And I'm hearing it from colleagues as well. Hence my annoyance.

ancapailldorcha · 22-03-2019 02:58PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It would make the UK a vassal state of the EU.

Simple as that. All the rules, no say.

It still doesn't constitute membership and therefore satisfies the mandate issued by the electorate on 23 June 2016 as well as illustrating why said referendum was perhaps the stupidest thing a Western leader has done in living memory.

ancapailldorcha · 22-03-2019 02:59PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

The person I quoted said exactly that a page or so back. And I'm hearing it from colleagues as well. Hence my annoyance.

63 million people here could sign it. Same result. A debate in the House of Commons. Nothing more.

Eod100 · 22-03-2019 03:01PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It would make the UK a vassal state of the EU.

Simple as that. All the rules, no say.

Isn't UK proposing Norway style arrangement? And promoting their trade with Lichtenstein after Brexit? Both in EEA but not EU. Would it be such an issue if they were in EEA?

PokeHerKing · 22-03-2019 03:01PM

ancapailldorcha wrote:

63 million people here could sign it. Same result. A debate in the House of Commons. Nothing more.

Im very much aware of this. Which is why I asked for it to stop being posted like it's some silver bullet. It means diddly squat and rightly so.

Kermit.de.frog · 22-03-2019 03:04PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It still doesn't constitute membership and therefore satisfies the mandate issued by the electorate on 23 June 2016 as well as illustrating why said referendum was perhaps the stupidest thing a Western leader has done in living memory.

I can see serious social unrest if it comes to pass that the UK is forced to accept all the rules of the EU, have absolutely no say in those rules, unable to organise effectively it's own economic affairs and becomes a vassal state (overnight!).

This is not Norway we are dealing with. It's the 5th largest economy in the world. An important country in world affairs.

They simply won't accept that.

ancapailldorcha · 22-03-2019 03:07PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I can see serious social unrest if it comes to pass that the UK is forced to accept all the rules of the EU, have absolutely no say in those rules, unable to organise effectively it's own economic affairs and becomes a vassal state (overnight!).

This is not Norway we are dealing with. It's the 5th largest economy in the world. An important country in world affairs.

They simply won't accept that.

I can see serious social unrest if a no deal trashes the economy. Norway prevents this and simply failing to satisfy the Brexiters' test for purity is nowhere near good enough reason to rule it out. Various leavers advocated this model before the referendum.

Fifth largest economy? How long do you expect that to last? Telling all the foreign talent & capital it isn't welcome will go a long way to undermining that position.

marno21 · 22-03-2019 03:07PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I can see serious social unrest if it comes to pass that the UK is forced to accept all the rules of the EU, have absolutely no say in those rules, unable to organise effectively it's own economic affairs and becomes a vassal state (overnight!).

I can also see serious social unrest when the UK effectively commits itself to a position of serious economic and other disadvantage when people wake up and realise that Brexit is a gigantic con based on a massive house of cards of lies, deceit and misinformation.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is not Norway we are dealing with. It's the 5th largest economy in the world. An important country in world affairs.

They simply won't accept that.

If they want to get the level of respect that being the 5th largest economy in the world and "an important country in world affairs" then maybe they should start acting like adults.

robinph · 22-03-2019 03:08PM

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Im very much aware of this. Which is why I asked for it to stop being posted like it's some silver bullet. It means diddly squat and rightly so.

Nobody signing the petition is seriously thinking it means that A50 will be revoked because of a click on a website. It does have slightly more effect on things than diddly squat, though only slightly admittedly.

It's been getting mentioned in HoC, stories about it being added to front pages of various news sites, getting people to possibly talk about alternative options and most importantly of all it has got some overtime hours for some IT staff trying to keep the website up and running.

It has zero legal standing other than to make someone in the HoC copy and paste a previous "brexit means brexit" statement into an email to the 3million people next week. But it does get people to notice it and pay a bit more attention. Mostly completely futile, but not totally.

joe40 · 22-03-2019 03:10PM

Enzokk wrote: »

This was the question asked,

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

EEA is not membership of the EU and it will have fulfilled on the question asked during the referendum.

I distinctly remember a debate before the referendum where Nigel Farage was talking about how good Norway's position was. He said something along the lines that no one considers Norway a poor country, so why should the British people fear Brexit.

So many lies were told during the campaign and the same people are still getting away with it.

ancapailldorcha · 22-03-2019 03:12PM

Prior to entering the EEC in the 1970's, the Conservatives feared that if they didn't they would run the risk of becoming "a Greater Sweden", isolated and irrelevant. Now they won't even be that if they continue on this course.

dresden8 · 22-03-2019 03:13PM

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

Good god... I just had a chilling thought. Imagine Farage getting re-elected as an MEP!? I would almost rather have a no-deal Brexit than have to listen to him continuing to pull his nonsense in the EP

Britain will return 73 of his type.

Shelga · 22-03-2019 03:15PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It would make the UK a vassal state of the EU.

Simple as that. All the rules, no say.

Serious question though- why do Norway, Switzerland and Iceland think EFTA membership is better than just being in the EU? Are there any advantages to Brexit in name only?

I know it’s a very complex issue and each country’s requirements and desires will differ, but those countries obviously think full EU membership isn’t the way to go either.

Kermit.de.frog · 22-03-2019 03:20PM

Shelga wrote: »

Serious question though- why do Norway, Switzerland and Iceland think EFTA membership is better than just being in the EU? Are there any advantages to Brexit in name only?

I know it’s a very complex issue and each country’s requirements and desires will differ, but those countries obviously think full EU membership isn’t the way to go either.

Those countries expectations of their own influence in the world are far lower and other economic priorities (oil in the case of Norway, fish in the case of Iceland) are niche and important to them.

UK has far loftier expectations due to it's size (and of course delusions) and I don't believe for a second they would accept taking their rules from Brussels with no say.

prawnsambo · 22-03-2019 03:23PM

Shelga wrote: »

Serious question though- why do Norway, Switzerland and Iceland think EFTA membership is better than just being in the EU? Are there any advantages to Brexit in name only?

I know it’s a very complex issue and each country’s requirements and desires will differ, but those countries obviously think full EU membership isn’t the way to go either.

Norwegian governments have been in favour of full membership for many iterations. The Labour, Conservative and Liberal parties are all in favour. The problem is that Norwegian people have rejected the proposition twice by narrow majorities. The latest in 1994 by 52/48.

Eod100 · 22-03-2019 03:23PM

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

Good god... I just had a chilling thought. Imagine Farage getting re-elected as an MEP!? I would almost rather have a no-deal Brexit than have to listen to him continuing to pull his nonsense in the EP

There's an irony in him being so anti-EU when it was the only place he could be elected to in his political career..

Eod100 · 22-03-2019 03:25PM

Peak Tusk..

https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1109096092786921473

Tacitus Kilgore · 22-03-2019 03:25PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Those countries expectations of their own influence in the world are far lower and other economic priorities (oil in the case of Norway, fish in the case of Iceland) are niche and important to them.

UK has far loftier expectations due to it's size (and of course delusions) and I don't believe for a second they would accept taking their rules from Brussels with no say.

But isn't that what the UK voted for?

They may have aspired for it to be something different, but what brexit is - is 'leaving' the EU but still being bound by it's rules one way or another whether it be as a member of EFTA or as a 3rd country/country in a withdrawal agreement looking to make a trade deal?

The only option that contains any real kind of control over it's relationship with it's neighbors is by being a member of the EU, anything else is lesser.

Joe_ Public · 22-03-2019 03:27PM

Eod100 wrote: »

Peak Tusk..

https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1109096092786921473

Liked the quip he made to one of the British journalists during the press conference. “I think I am more pro-British than you.” Didn’t pick up which paper the reporter was from, but could probably nail it given two guesses.

Water John · 22-03-2019 03:29PM

Brexiteers describing indicitive votes as a 'national humiliation' and 'ludicrous'.
So asking MPs what they think is best, isn't democratic?

BTW looking at the list of bookies odds, the only name that I see who might work for all is Lidington. Seems to be taking the reins a bit more ATM.

The UK people have struck it lucky with Tusk in the driving seat. He genuinely cares about the country.
It was Sky Reporter Mark Stone, Tusk was replying to.

Leroy42 · 22-03-2019 03:32PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Norwegian governments have been in favour of full membership for many iterations. The Labour, Conservative and Liberal parties are all in favour. The problem is that Norwegian people have rejected the proposition twice by narrow majorities. The latest in 1994 by 52/48.

There was a Norwegian on Remainiacs some time back who stated, from memory, that it was a very divisive position in Norway and that they had agreed to disagree on it. The politicians want in, the people don't agree so they seemed to have come to a compromise where they are kind of in and kind of out and both sides realise that it is not the best solution but it meets the demands on both sides to some extend so was a decent compromise.

Which is what the UK had in terms of Non-Euro etc but they decided to throw their toys out of the pram and have a little tantrum thinking the adults would simply cave in.

When you listen to ex Leaver activists, the one thing that comes across is that they never really expected to win. It really was meant to be a protest vote, a stick in the eye. Those that did actually believe in Brexit as a destination never dreamed that the EU would actually be so unified. They really felt that each member state would fight the others to save themselves, and they would simply pick them off starting with the German car manufacturers.

The Brexit that they have ended up with, be it TM deal or No Deal, has absolutely nothing to do with the Brexit that was campaigned for.

Joe_ Public · 22-03-2019 03:33PM

Water John wrote: »

Brexiteers describing indicitive votes as a 'national humiliation' and 'ludicrous'.
So asking MPs what they think is best, isn't democratic?

BTW looking at the list of bookies odds, the only name that I see who might work for all is Lidington. Seems to be taking the reins a bit more ATM.

The UK people have struck it lucky with Tusk in the driving seat. He genuinely cares about the country.

Possibly significant that the other parties have been talking to Lidington this morning, maybe a sign that the sidelining of PM has already begun?

Headshot · 22-03-2019 03:33PM

Eod100 wrote: »

Peak Tusk..

https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1109096092786921473

A real states man and a real leader, someone the UK are craving for but instead they have the likes of May and Corbyn

Leroy42 · 22-03-2019 03:34PM

Re Tusk, as each day passes his remark about "the lack of even a sketch of a plan" becomes more and more on the money.

prawnsambo · 22-03-2019 03:36PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

The Brexit that they have ended up with, be it TM deal or No Deal, has absolutely nothing to do with the Brexit that was campaigned for.

Yes, but that hasn't stopped them re-writing history on an ongoing basis to try and make the gap between fantasy and reality look like their plan all along.

Joe_ Public · 22-03-2019 03:41PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Re Tusk, as each day passes his remark about "the lack of even a sketch of a plan" becomes more and more on the money.

Of course when you had the likes of David Davis telling all and sundry how easy and painless the whole process would be, what sense of urgency did anyone need about Plan As, Plan Bs, contingencies or whatever you’re having yourself?

fash · 22-03-2019 03:46PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

But that is not Brexit.

That's being in the single market, accepting all the rules and having zero say in those rules.

From a sovereignty perspective it's infinitely worse than being a full EU member country.

A lot of people would not be happy with that, not just the Brexiters.

It's good enough for Norway- and what is the UK except a poor man's Norway?

Furthermore, technically, the will of the people at the time of the referendum would have been for an EEA type exit - We know for certain that 48% wanted to remain in the single market and one can be reasonably confident that at least 2% of the remaining 51.9% voted to leave basis that "no-one is talking about leaving the single market" - including at a minimum people such as Richard North, one of the original Brexiters: http://www.eureferendum.com as well as Peter Hitchens, and several campaigners within the Leave organisation itself.

Furthermore there was a deep opinion study about a year ago (looking behind people's knee jerk "public face" position by asking secondary questions which do not trigger the knee jerk) which showed that EEA was by a significant majority the concensus position.

So who are you to argue with the will of the people?

fash · 22-03-2019 03:48PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Of course when you had the likes of David Davis telling all and sundry how easy and painless the whole process would be, what sense of urgency did anyone need about Plan As, Plan Bs, contingencies or whatever you’re having yourself?

David Davis foresaw all of this - don't you remember his "chessboard" speech:

https://mobile.twitter.com/propertyspot/status/1108155476011900928

Inquitus · 22-03-2019 03:57PM

fash wrote: »

David Davis foresaw all of this - don't you remember his "chessboard" speech:

https://mobile.twitter.com/propertyspot/status/1108155476011900928

Boards Friendly link below

That ages spectacularly badly, its comical in retrospect, in some ways I think it's only in the past few weeks that the blinkers have come off, and the reality is dawning.

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1108155476011900928

Spanish Eyes · 22-03-2019 04:05PM

Whatever about EEA membership and its business/trade advantages to UK, the FOM issue is one thing that many Brexiters do NOT want, no matter what. Well that and vassalage.

Tricky.

Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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