Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

Beta Ray Bill · 06-03-2019 2:43pm

Qrt wrote: »

Sorry but this doesn’t stack up. I live in probably the worst area of Dublin, and I’ve never met anyone who’s more afraid of their kids walking home from school than their kids cycling home.

Had a read through this:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6stp/

It very interesting, and does show that since since the mid 90's there's been a rapid increase in the number of kids that travel to school in a Car (Particularly Primary school)

Arguing that it was safer on the roads then than it is now is not a good argument though.
There were more Cars being registered in the 90's on a yearly basis than there is even today.

As I said what is more likely is now Mam and Dad both work Full time, and they have always dropped their kid off since they were at creche, and this habit has stuck.
Plus there is now more awareness of all dangers posed to kids (not just from cars).
Also there was less money prior to that, A lot of families didn't even own a Car

I think the best solution would to have high/increasing speed travelators installed all over Dublin.
Then you could just walk to there ever you need to go!

sharper · 06-03-2019 2:45pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Your silly, small town minded, outdated 1970's notion that people on bikes, buses and trains are poor and can't afford cars just shows how clueless you are on the subject.

It's also the dominant attitude in the US. Use of public transport (especially bus) is associated with being poor. If you're anyone you should have a car or if you have to use public transport it should be light rail.

Unsurprisingly it leads to a total mess.

There's a fundamental reality here, you can't build a city that allows the working population to live in low density housing, work in a high density commercial area and commute between in a private car all within the same two hour window each way.

Some part of that equation has to lose.

magicbastarder · 06-03-2019 2:54pm

what's the saying - that the sign of a developed country is not that poor people can afford cars, but that rich people take public transport?

CatInABox · 06-03-2019 5:34pm

sharper wrote: »

It's also the dominant attitude in the US. Use of public transport (especially bus) is associated with being poor. If you're anyone you should have a car or if you have to use public transport it should be light rail.

Unsurprisingly it leads to a total mess.

It's also been quite interesting to see potential solutions proposed by people with zero experience of public transport, either use or design. Elon Musk is many things, but a thought leader in public transport is not one of them. His solution to congestion is to build an underground rail system....for cars.

magicbastarder · 07-03-2019 9:35am

not specifically about congestion in dublin, but an opinion piece that the reign of the car has to be brought to an end:

Cars are killing us. Within 10 years, we must phase them out
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-driving-environment-phase-out

Beta Ray Bill · 07-03-2019 11:23am

CatInABox wrote: »

It's also been quite interesting to see potential solutions proposed by people with zero experience of public transport, either use or design. Elon Musk is many things, but a thought leader in public transport is not one of them. His solution to congestion is to build an underground rail system....for cars.

Elon Musk is a clever guy, like really clever.
He's had this fantastic idea that just might work.
He's so clever in fact that he's using other peoples money and not his own on this gamble!
IE If it works: He's a Genius, If it doesn't: It's California's loss (financially) and problem, as the reason it didn't work will be because of Bureaucracy in the state of California

magicbastarder wrote: »

not specifically about congestion in dublin, but an opinion piece that the reign of the car has to be brought to an end:

Cars are killing us. Within 10 years, we must phase them out
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-driving-environment-phase-out

This is beginning to happen, I have a load of mates that can't drive.
Never saw the point in it, they get lifts off people when ever needed, otherwise they use public transport.
They don't see the point in terms of insurance cost, tax, price of running a car etc.
Note: These are people in their mid 30's that don't have kids and probably won't ever have kids.... Another worrying trend.

In days past the car was seen as liberating, you as a 17 or 18 year old could go where you wanted and do what you wanted if you had access to a car.
There are a lot of people that still feel this way and could never do without.

If I didn't have a kid, I wouldn't own a car. Motorcycle is enough for me.

cherryghost · 07-03-2019 3:14pm

Ya I'm sitting in the place where I'm in my mid 30s, never needed a car until now, I have a child and it's just a bit too awkward to go about life without one.

cdaly_ · 07-03-2019 4:22pm

There are quite a number of Dubliners these days transporting their kids by cargo bike or trailer. There's also the habit of bringing everything 'just in case' when transporting the kids. It takes effort to trim down to the actually necessary.

Beta Ray Bill · 07-03-2019 4:45pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

There are quite a number of Dubliners these days transporting their kids by cargo bike or trailer. There's also the habit of bringing everything 'just in case' when transporting the kids. It takes effort to trim down to the actually necessary.

Highlighted the key word there...
Something that, "a lot of" is required
also something that most people put sweet f*ck all into.

The Enbalmer · 07-03-2019 4:48pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

There are quite a number of Dubliners these days transporting their kids by cargo bike or trailer.

Yes..they should be jailed for child endangerment.

amcalester · 07-03-2019 4:51pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Yes..they should be jailed for child endangerment.

Surely you mean those motorists driving aggressively, dangerously and illegally on roads that are shared by many people should be jailed for endangerment?

sharper · 07-03-2019 4:55pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Yes..they should be jailed for child endangerment.

I don't think you want to open a debate on whether cars or bikes represent the most danger for children.

AndrewJRenko · 07-03-2019 10:41pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

cdaly_ wrote: »

There are quite a number of Dubliners these days transporting their kids by cargo bike or trailer.

Yes..they should be jailed for child endangerment.

Have many kids been killed or injured in cargo bikes? Compared to the number of kids killed or injured in cars?

John_Rambo · 09-03-2019 11:57am

cdaly_ wrote: »

There are quite a number of Dubliners these days transporting their kids by cargo bike or trailer. There's also the habit of bringing everything 'just in case' when transporting the kids. It takes effort to trim down to the actually necessary.

I did the kid trailer on bike. Kids don't need a quarter of the stuff you'd bring in the car with you! They progressed on to balance bikes and then regular bikes (skipped the whole stabiliser part). The result is strong, healthy kids with a degree of responsibility and a good understanding of the rules of the road (better than some posters on this thread).

OldMrBrennan83 · 09-03-2019 11:58am

A lot worse places to be than a warm car listening to what you want. Don't see the issue really, Irish people just need to learn to get up out of the bed earlier.

John_Rambo · 09-03-2019 12:03pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

A lot worse places to be than a warm car listening to what you want. Don't see the issue really, Irish people just need to learn to get up out of the bed earlier.

Don't get me wrong, I like being in my cars too, but my cars were made for driving, not idling in traffic.

downtheroad · 09-03-2019 1:24pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

A lot worse places to be than a warm car listening to what you want. Don't see the issue really, Irish people just need to learn to get up out of the bed earlier.

A lot worse places to be than on a bicycle getting some exercise and relatively fresh air (aside from all the times being spat out by cars sitting in traffic moving slower than bicycles) getting to work quicker.

OldMrBrennan83 · 09-03-2019 1:29pm

downtheroad wrote: »

A lot worse places to be than on a bicycle getting some exercise and relatively fresh air (aside from all the times being spat out by cars sitting in traffic moving slower than bicycles) getting to work quicker.

Depends on preference I suppose. I'd rather be in my car an hour than get to work in ten minutes getting exercise on a pushbike.
Though that doesn't happen because I get up off my hole in the mornings.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-03-2019 1:30pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

What do cyclists contribute?

Freeing up the roads for one, reduced pollution is another.

The Enbalmer wrote: »

Absolutely nothing..they don't have to have insurance or have to pass any kind of test yet they demand the lions share of transport ugrades so they can refuse to use it,citing that cycle lanes are "too dangerous" .

Build the correct infrastructure and it will absolutely be used. Paint a line on the road to tick a box and it's just not going to work. Cycle tracks are not maintained. They are not built with the cyclist in mind. Some of them are such failures, it's incredible to think that somebody looked at it and said "Yup, that'll do".

I doubt you cycle at all given your stance on cycle lanes.

The Enbalmer wrote: »

80%? Have you got a source for that?

Because i spend enough time cycling AND driving to see that a majority of people cycling absolutely do NOT have cars..if they did they wouldnt cycle the way they do.

I suppose as the mod of the cycling forum you're probably "bone tired" of hearing the "stupid argument" about cyclists running red lights and failing to signal their intentions too? Are you also bone tired of the people who say you should wear high visibility clothing and lights when you're cycling at night?

No amount of lights or high viz gear can compete with the ignorance of the average motorist.

Also, it's funny that you are demanding sources but provide none of your own for the ridiculous claims you make?

The Enbalmer wrote: »

And what are cyclists contributing to get ANY of this money they're demanding? I know you argue the semantics of "road tax" or "motor tax" but whatever it's called,cyclists dont pay ANY of it.

Only motorists pay motor tax. The hint is in the name

Cyclists do pay tax though.

The Enbalmer wrote: »

I paid for my car,the tax,the insurance,the petrol,the NCT and the tolls.

I'll drive it to work BY MYSELF because I've paid for that right.

You think busses full of people wielding bus passes is an efficient use of resources?

If I want to spend an hour cooped up every morning with a bunch of splattering,coughing bums then I'll take the bus.

If I want a 30 minute spin to work by MYSELF with the radio on I'll drive my car.

And cyclists can piss off too..they whinge looking for cycle lanes all over the city then refuse to use the bloody things once they're built.

Source? I doubt you have any.

The Enbalmer wrote: »

That's not going to happen.

You can't MAKE people cycle

You can't MAKE people take the bus

You can't MAKE people carshare

You can't MAKE people walk to work.

The people calling for a ban on cars are usually people who cannot afford a car,it's begrudgery masquerading as social conscience.

What's your solution? Keep widening roads so you can fit more cars? The car centric thought process needs to die. It has no place in modern society.

As for the begrudgery, well that's just clutching at straws really. It sounds more like some motorists are fuming that cyclists can get to their destination in half the time or less.

John_Rambo · 09-03-2019 2:18pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Depends on preference I suppose. I'd rather be in my car an hour than get to work in ten minutes getting exercise on a pushbike.
Though that doesn't happen because I get up off my hole in the mornings.

Only to sit straight back down on your hole in your car! :pac:

OldMrBrennan83 · 09-03-2019 2:20pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Only to sit straight back down on your hole in your car! :pac:

Yep. In the heat, listening to what I want to listen to, in a nice comfortable seat. It's great.

whiskeyman · 09-03-2019 2:24pm

Government needs to support more companies who allow working from home situations where applicable.
It's beneficial for everyone.
Less fatigue for the employee and likely to be happier to avoid the commute at least 1 day a week.
Company gets a happier employee who values this benefit.
Less strain on transport network.

Obviously not everyone can do it.

magicbastarder · 09-03-2019 2:26pm

The Enbalmer wrote: »

What do cyclists contribute?

turn the question on its head - what do private motorists contribute?
they are by far the most inefficient users of the publically available transport infrastructure. they take up an inordinate amount of space on the roads, and are the biggest cause of traffic congestion possible. they pollute the air, and 90%+ of the fumes emitted from a car don't actually go to moving the occupants around, they are used up moving the vehicle, and by inefficiences in the engine.
they create the lions share of danger on the roads.
being stuck in traffic is in itself a health risk, as evidence is mounting that a sedentary lifestyle is not just passively dangerous to health, but actively so.

it matters not a whit to other road users that you've paid for the privilege of driving, because we're paying for your privilege too.

magicbastarder · 09-03-2019 2:28pm

whiskeyman wrote: »

Government needs to support more companies who allow working from home situations where applicable.
It's beneficial for everyone.

i'm lucky in this sense, i can work from home whenever i want. i go into the office two to three days a week (usually two in winter, and three in summer).

SeanW · 09-03-2019 2:32pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

oh my sides.
they're proposing spending €600m on a single road in galway, for cars. if cyclists got a fraction of that, we'd be delighted.
cyclists are asking for - well, active transport activists are asking for - 10% of transport budget to be spent on walking and cycling. that's not the lions share, unless you're being creative with language.

Cars do not (yet) drive themselves. The road is not being built "for cars" it is being built "for people who are in cars", and it will serve an important regional purpose, being used to access a large part of Western Co. Galway that today can only be accessed by city street-road hybrids. Unlike other towns and cities, Galway was never bypassed. Of course it would have been cheaper to do it right the first time, but, c'est la vie.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They contribute nothing near the cost of damage they do. This research from London will give you an idea of what they should be paying.

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/cars-air-pollution-cost-nhs-vans-vehicles-health-bills-lung-disease-a8384806.html

Your own figures actually contradict your claim.

They're for London area - the impact of individual cars is worse in large urban areas (more other cars, more idling, greater population density) all ingredients for much greater damage than somewhere else (like Ireland) where none of that applies to the same degree.
£8000 is a car-lifetime figure for London, not an annual figure or a UK wide one.
It's far less outside of London. £1,640 is the figure quoted - over a 14 year lifetime remember - for the UK as a whole.

£1640 is just a little under or around €2000 and many of us would pay that in a single year in taxes. My road tax alone would pay that lifetime cost in only about 2.5-3 years, and I've had my current car for 10.

Where does the idea that motorists get some credit or rights for paying insurance come from? Motorists pay insurance to cover the huge costs of the huge amount of damage done to people and property by motorists.

No, it pays for a lot more.

An enormous amount of insurance fraud. If you pay for car insurance in Ireland, especially on a 10+ year old car, probably half of that or more is used to cover staged accidents. the motor insurance industry is paying so much for insurance fraud, that they were willing to fund a Garda unit devoted to the issue. The government rejected the offer but has proposed no alternative.
Exaggeration of claims is also rampant.
Awards in Ireland are way out of step with other jurisdictions. I don't have the figures to hand, but I understand they are many multiples of the awards generally given in countries such as the UK.
"Strict liability" exists de-facto in Ireland if not de-jure. If you are driving an are involved in any kind of accident with a pedestrian or cyclist - no matter how that accident was caused - there's likely to be a payout. That's part of why pedestrians and cyclists run red lights all the time.
Bailouts for failed insurers. Never insured with Setanta or Quinn? Doesn't matter, you're paying an insurance levy to deal with the consequences of their failures.

Of course, Ross doesn't care about any of this, nor the lack of progress of things like Dart Underground (desperately needed) in Dublin, he's too busy looking for more extreme anti-motorist measures.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It doesn't really matter whether they're convicted or not Stephen. Most road deaths are motorists killing themselves, other motorists or passengers. If you want to reduce road deaths, focus on getting motorists to stop killing people.

Which we've been doing. By building motorways. Lots of them. And also things like changing our culture regarding drink driving. In the 1970s, getting plastered and driving home was normal. And most driving was on single carriageways. As such, twice the number of people (or more) vs. today were killed on the roads even though there were fewer people in the country and millions fewer cars on the road.

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Which of those classifications includes the buses that are the most efficient means of moving people around? It's only private cars that are an issue and inefficient.

The bus service would be a lot better and have much more capacity if there were less private car traffic.

Do you even live in Ireland? Have you ever been on a bus trying to get around the Dame St/D'olier St/College Green mess?

If there is anywhere that proves your theory false, it is here. I know, because when I had to get around there on the bus at the peak hour, it used to take north of 30 minutes just to clear that junction by bus. And it's a "bus gate" meaning NO private cars are allowed. Bashing motorists isn't the solution - if you disagree, I suggest taking a bus in Dublin that will have to go past Trinity at 8:30 AM or 5:30PM.

OldMrBrennan83 · 09-03-2019 2:34pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Only to sit straight back down on your hole in your car! :pac:

Why did you post this again? I'd reply again but if you scroll up a bit you can find it directly below the first time.

John_Rambo · 09-03-2019 2:58pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Yep. In the heat, listening to what I want to listen to, in a nice comfortable seat. It's great.

That's you though! You're happy to have a sedentary lifestyle, you're most likely unhealthy but bizarrely you're looking at cyclist with a smug "I'm alright Jack" attitude as if the cyclists are miserable!

They're not miserable! They're getting physical and mental exercise, they're using skills and muscles, they're building strength and they're getting to where they want quicker than they would in their cars.

It may be uncomfortable, but so is climbing mountains and sea swimming.
But driven people still do these things, obviously not people like you, hence your complete misunderstanding and misinterpretation of cycling commuters.

We could all ditch the bikes and sit in our warm cars like you. But we choose not to for the betterment of health, lifestyle, environment and community

OldMrBrennan83 · 09-03-2019 3:06pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

That's you though! You're happy to have a sedentary lifestyle, you're most likely unhealthy but bizarrely you're looking at cyclist with a smug "I'm alright Jack" attitude as if the cyclists are miserable!

They're not miserable! They're getting physical and mental exercise, they're using skills and muscles, they're building strength and they're getting to where they want quicker than they would in their cars.

It may be uncomfortable, but so is climbing mountains and sea swimming.
But driven people still do these things, obviously not people like you, hence your complete misunderstanding and misinterpretation of cycling commuters.

We could all ditch the bikes and sit in our warm cars like you. But we choose not to for the betterment of health, lifestyle, environment and community

I don't care whether they're miserable or not, just what I'm doing for myself.

I've also smelt lads that cycle to work. They're doing nobody any favours in the name of health.

John_Rambo · 09-03-2019 3:10pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

I've also smelt lads that cycle to work. They're doing nobody any favours in the name of health.

You should;
1 - Lobby your boss for showers and better facilities for the cyclists.
2 - Stop smelling your colleagues in work.

OldMrBrennan83 · 09-03-2019 3:13pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

You should;
1 - Lobby your boss for showers and better facilities for the cyclists.
2 - Stop smelling your colleagues in work.

I don't work with cyclists any more.

The second point is irrelevant when someone absolutely reeks. You'd have the same problem if someone was smelly for another reason but you want to be flippant and tell someone to turn a blind eye because a colleague got stinking on a pushbike.

Dublin ranks 3rd in terms of the amount of time spent in cars due to congestion

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