Number26/N26 Mastercard/Account now for Irish Residents

Dardania · 06-03-2019 8:10am

Bob24 wrote: »

Agree with that.

One thing I don’t understand though it why the regulation didn’t force countries to turn off legacy national sort codes and account number transfers once SEPA became mandatory for everyone. It wouldn’t have forced any organisation to accept foreign IBANs, but at least it would have forced them to deploy SEPA compliant payment systems which would have removed one key reason why foreign IBANs get refused (and for exemple the NTA in Ireland couldn’t have been years behind to transition from the old Irish DD system to SEPA direct debits as not transitioning on time would have cut them off all their Irish customers).

Cost of compliance by companies would have been prohibitive. And those costs would be passed onto consumers. The vast majority of whom don’t care about having a non Irish bank account.

Imagine if overnight it was declared that every company needs to support SEPA with non Irish IBANs, with massive fines for non compliance? The software vendors would absolutely cream it in financial back of house upgrade costs for the entire country.

Governments have the ability to dramatically change the market prices of things - that’s why the government cannot simply throw money at social housing at the moment as there is finite construction capacity in the country - supply and demand takes over and the prices shoot through the roof.

user1842 · 06-03-2019 9:16am

Bob24 wrote: »

One thing I don’t understand though it why the regulation didn’t force countries to turn off legacy national sort codes and account number transfers once SEPA became mandatory for everyone.

The regulation did force them to do exactly just that. However it did not force a method of implementation for businesses. A lot of businesses just use conversion services. Basically businesses did not update their systems and just converted the payment file to ISO20022 xml with IBAN (as per the Regulation) and sent this to their bank.

So this is what happens for a business who does not accept EU IBANs:

Customer enters IE IBAN on the website of the business -> system converts this to national sort code and account number and creates old national legacy direct debit payment file -> this file is then converted and the IBAN recreated to the SEPA standard and sent to the bank.

If the business used an non IE IBAN it would break their conversion service (most conversion services are offered by third parties).

However this is not an excuse and businesses should properly update their systems and accept all EU IBANs. It is the law and the CCPC should enforce it.

Bob24 · 06-03-2019 10:32am

user1842 wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

One thing I don’t understand though it why the regulation didn’t force countries to turn off legacy national sort codes and account number transfers once SEPA became mandatory for everyone.

The regulation did force them to do exactly just that. However it did not force a method of implementation for businesses. A lot of businesses just use conversion services. Basically businesses did not update their systems and just converted the payment file to ISO20022 xml with IBAN (as per the Regulation) and sent this to their bank.

So this is what happens for a business who does not accept EU IBANs:

Customer enters IE IBAN on the website of the business -> system converts this to national sort code and account number and creates old national legacy direct debit payment file -> this file is then converted and the IBAN recreated to the SEPA standard and sent to the bank.

If the business used an non IE IBAN it would break their conversion service (most conversion services are offered by third parties).

However this is not an excuse and businesses should properly update their systems and accept all EU IBANs. It is the law and the CCPC should enforce it.

Thanks for that explanation, I actually originally thought the shutdown was part of the regulation and then assumed it wasn’t since the like of the NTA kept using local bank identifiers.

However in the scenario you explain I don’t really see the point for the organisation doing it? Essentially what I understand from what you wrote is that the organisation has people input an Irish IBAN, converts that IBAN to an Irish NSC and account number to store it in a database, and then passes those details to external payment provider which will convert back to IBAN to process the payment.

I don’t get the point of that double conversion rather than just storing the IBAN into their system. Is it just laziness to create a new IBAN field on their backend database?! (this is a once off cost and can’t possibly be more expensive than paying an external provider to handle legacy banking identifiers for just a few months).

Bob24 · 06-03-2019 10:37am

Dardania wrote: »

Cost of compliance by companies would have been prohibitive. And those costs would be passed onto consumers. The vast majority of whom don’t care about having a non Irish bank account.

Imagine if overnight it was declared that every company needs to support SEPA with non Irish IBANs, with massive fines for non compliance? The software vendors would absolutely cream it in financial back of house upgrade costs for the entire country.

Simple answer to this: the final SEPA regulation and the deadline for compliance were published something like 10 years in advance. So nothing would have been requested to happen overnight.

Dardania · 06-03-2019 10:59am

Bob24 wrote: »

Simple answer to this: the final SEPA regulation and the deadline for compliance were published something like 10 years in advance. So nothing would have been requested to happen overnight.

Fair point

user1842 · 06-03-2019 11:14am

Bob24 wrote: »

Thanks for that explanation, I actually originally thought the shutdown was part of the regulation and then assumed it wasn’t since the like of the NTA kept using local bank identifiers.

However in the scenario you explain I don’t really see the point for the organisation doing it? Essentially what I understand from what you wrote is that the organisation has people input an Irish IBAN, converts that IBAN to an Irish NSC and account number to store it in a database, and then passes those details to external payment provider which will convert back to IBAN to process the payment.

I don’t get the point of that double conversion rather than just storing the IBAN into their system. Is it just laziness to create a new IBAN field on their backend database?! (this is a once off cost and can’t possibly be more expensive than paying an external provider to handle legacy banking identifiers for just a few months).

Most probably the creation of the old direct debit file is part of an embedded process attached to a back-end system. The company probably noted that to change this would mean extra cost and re-testing of the overall CRM system and thus opted for the conversion service instead.

For most companies it is easier to build an interface than to update core systems. This is why IT infrastructure in Banks is such a mess.

Also if the NTA are still allowing the entry of a sort code and account number and not the IBAN, then this is a total joke. This IBAN is the only payment account identifier for the EU, period.

Bob24 · 06-03-2019 12:01pm

user1842 wrote: »

Most probably the creation of the old direct debit file is part of an embedded process attached to a back-end system. The company probably noted that to change this would mean extra cost and re-testing of the overall CRM system and thus opted for the conversion service instead.

For most companies it is easier to build an interface than to update core systems. This is why IT infrastructure in Banks is such a mess.

Also if the NTA are still allowing the entry of a sort code and account number and not the IBAN, then this is a total joke. This IBAN is the only payment account identifier for the EU, period.

As far as the NTA is concerned, they eventually fixed the leap card website recently but not after several years of a few of us on boards (and most likely other people) chasing them and various Irish/EU institutions to get enforcement (spoiler: Irish authorities did abslolutly nothing and it is only when the European Commission formally inquired about it that things stared to move). Before that they were in the scenario you described: accepting Irish IBAN and converting them to national
account identifiers to feed them into their old system.

savj2 · 06-03-2019 2:07pm

I tried to join N26 two days ago.

This morning I got an email saying:

Hey [insert name[

Thank you for your interest in opening an account with N26. We’re sorry to inform you that it appears we will not be able to open an account for you.

As a bank, we have to follow strict legal requirements for every account we open. Unfortunately, occasionally this means we are not able to open accounts due to these restrictions. Due to legal constraints, we are not able to give you any more information at this time.

We would like to thank you for your patience, understanding and interest in N26.

Your N26 Team

I contacted them on the ap but they say there is no other explanation they can give other than what they already know and that no exceptions can be made.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I find it strange that they won't even give an explanation as to why I they won't allow me to open an account.

Newtown90 · 06-03-2019 3:52pm

Hi all,

Has anyone successfully setup a direct debit with three using N26?

Twice now I've attempted and keep getting "are you sure that's a bank?.. Its not working on my system".

Very frustrating.

Bob24 · 06-03-2019 4:17pm

savj2 wrote: »

I tried to join N26 two days ago.

This morning I got an email saying:

Hey [insert name[

Thank you for your interest in opening an account with N26. We’re sorry to inform you that it appears we will not be able to open an account for you.

As a bank, we have to follow strict legal requirements for every account we open. Unfortunately, occasionally this means we are not able to open accounts due to these restrictions. Due to legal constraints, we are not able to give you any more information at this time.

We would like to thank you for your patience, understanding and interest in N26.

Your N26 Team

I contacted them on the ap but they say there is no other explanation they can give other than what they already know and that no exceptions can be made.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I find it strange that they won't even give an explanation as to why I they won't allow me to open an account.

Strange ... especially the part whereby they refuse to provide an explanation. I think at some point on this thread someone also mentioned N26 closed their account and refused to explain why. This lack of transparency is a bit worrying.

They clame there are legal reasons but I think it’s a bit weak and vague as justification.

user1842 · 06-03-2019 4:25pm

Newtown90 wrote: »

Hi all,

Has anyone successfully setup a direct debit with three using N26?

Twice now I've attempted and keep getting "are you sure that's a bank?.. Its not working on my system".

Very frustrating.

Name and shame the businesses saying this.

Páid · 06-03-2019 5:31pm

user1842 wrote: »

Name and shame the businesses saying this.

S/he says it's Three.

The J Stands for Jay · 06-03-2019 5:31pm

Newtown90 wrote: »

Hi all,

Has anyone successfully setup a direct debit with three using N26?

Twice now I've attempted and keep getting "are you sure that's a bank?.. Its not working on my system".

Very frustrating.

Get them to 'humour' you and enter it in their system to see what happens. Tell you you'll pay by card later if it doesn't work (it'll work).

Yggr of Asgard · 06-03-2019 6:16pm

savj2 wrote: »

I tried to join N26 two days ago.

This morning I got an email saying:

Hey [insert name[

Thank you for your interest in opening an account with N26. We’re sorry to inform you that it appears we will not be able to open an account for you.

As a bank, we have to follow strict legal requirements for every account we open. Unfortunately, occasionally this means we are not able to open accounts due to these restrictions. Due to legal constraints, we are not able to give you any more information at this time.

We would like to thank you for your patience, understanding and interest in N26.

Your N26 Team

I contacted them on the ap but they say there is no other explanation they can give other than what they already know and that no exceptions can be made.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I find it strange that they won't even give an explanation as to why I they won't allow me to open an account.

There could be loads of reasons, anything anybody here could contribute is speculation as we don't know your personal situation and making them public would not be wise either.

The only way you might get a feeling is by doing a GDPR request and then look through the data sets they have on you to see what could have driven it.

They are not obliged to tell you the reason and again nobody knows besides them.

Yggr of Asgard · 06-03-2019 6:17pm

Newtown90 wrote: »

Hi all,

Has anyone successfully setup a direct debit with three using N26?

Twice now I've attempted and keep getting "are you sure that's a bank?.. Its not working on my system".

Very frustrating.

I used to be with three and paid from a non irish account without a problem and I know people who use N26 to pay their 3 bill.

They can not do it over the phone, it must be done in a store or via written instructions.

RHJ · 06-03-2019 6:28pm

As others have said three do except non-Irish IBANs, I don't understand why they can't do it over the phone, but if you go into one of their stores or as I did sign up through the Carphone Warehouse there should be no problem.

Yggr of Asgard · 06-03-2019 6:35pm

RHJ wrote: »

As others have said three do except non-Irish IBANs, I don't understand why they can't do it over the phone, but if you go into one of their stores or as I did sign up through the Carphone Warehouse there should be no problem.

Legally an instruction to accept an account outside the country requires written instructions. That is what the law requires, it's not just 3. Some companies ignore that part.

TheChizler · 06-03-2019 7:03pm

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Legally an instruction to accept an account outside the country requires written instructions. That is what the law requires, it's not just 3. Some companies ignore that part.

Is that instructions must be in writing, or the only instruction they are required to accept are those in writing?

Yggr of Asgard · 06-03-2019 7:55pm

This is Ireland so anybody can have a guess of what the interpretation is because this has yet to be tested in court, as far as I know, maybe someone has better understandings.

To the best of my knowledge:

You must give the biller a written mandate (with physical signature) to deduct from your account. There are strict guidelines on the layout of the mandate as it has to feature certain guarantees and notices. These instructions than need to be confirmed to you in writing on paper in line with strict guidelines.

So the direct debits the mandate exists as a per document which is physically signed by you. How this is stored is down to national requirements.

Exception 1 - Irish Biller / Domestic Account:

For domestic direct debits (Irish biller), this can also be an online form or a verbal mandate, which is known as "paperless mandate". This is due to the pre-sepa direct debit + options we had in Ireland.

Exception 2 - Electronic Signature

There are exceptions to this, where a mandate can be an electronic document which is created and signed with a Qualified Electronic Signature, however, only a few countries have actual methods of doing this (German with German ID cards for example or Estonians etc.).

Paper vs. online when paperless is not an option

So they can accept electronic mandates if they want which have a digital signature, but if not then a paper-based direct debit mandate is needed that has your physical signature on it.

Making it up as they go

Now some companies interpret the rules differently and allow non-Irish accounts to be used for online signup as they interpret the Irish in the regulations only to apply to them but not the customer and hence they set it up as a paperless mandate (which requires additional information to be given to you in their confirmation letter). This is clearly to make it easier for the customer.

Other companies interpret the rules as to you providing a non-Irish account means you need to give them a paper mandate.

TheChizler wrote: »

Is that instructions must be in writing, or the only instruction they are required to accept are those in writing?

One Line answer

So in any case, a paper with a physical signature is what they need unless they use the paperless method or you have a qualified electronic signature.

TheChizler · 06-03-2019 8:30pm

Thanks for the informative post. Up to the whim of the company so!

The Bishop Basher · 06-03-2019 8:51pm

Just been told by 123.ie that they only accept direct debts from an Irish bank account.

This is the first of a few that I need to change so it’s going to take a while by the looks of things..

user1842 · 07-03-2019 9:03am

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Legally an instruction to accept an account outside the country requires written instructions. That is what the law requires, it's not just 3. Some companies ignore that part.

Where are these laws?

The SCT and SDD scheme rule books issued by the European Payments Council (EPC) clearly note that either an electronic mandate (can be whatever, even a tick box on a website) or a paper mandate are fully acceptable (it is only the paper mandate that has to follow the EPC's guidelines).

A qualified electronic signature can be used if the creditor wants but it is totally optional.

The creditor chooses the type of mandate but cannot discriminated based on location of the payment account.

If there exists legacy Irish laws (not bank rules as these are superseded by Reg 260/2012 and the EPC schemes) that are in conflict with the EPC schemes and with current Irish law (an EU regulation is Irish law) than I would happily point this out to the EPC and the European Commission.

The European Commission would, most certainly, not be happy about this.

user1842 · 07-03-2019 9:15am

TheChizler wrote: »

Thanks for the informative post. Up to the whim of the company so!

No it is not, they can choose either a paper or electronic mandate (or both) but cannot discriminate based on the location of the payment account.

The J Stands for Jay · 07-03-2019 9:19am

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

I used to be with three and paid from a non irish account without a problem and I know people who use N26 to pay their 3 bill.

They can not do it over the phone, it must be done in a store or via written instructions.

I caused myself a load of issues when I tried to change the DD to a Bunq IBAN. Whoever set up 3s SEPA system didn't realise that there's no standard length for IBANs. The IE and DE ones are the same length, but NL is shorter.

[Yes, I did go through a phase of opening a lot of online bank accounts, but I decided to use Bunq for DDs as I liked having to approve all DDs veggie they are paid. It's also handy to budget with different Bunq accounts for different expenses, like people would have done in the olden days with cash in envelopes. I don't have a Bunq card, and I got on board before they started charging]

Yggr of Asgard · 07-03-2019 9:32am

user1842 wrote: »

Where are these laws?

The SCT and SDD scheme rule books issued by the European Payments Council (EPC) clearly note that either an electronic mandate (can be whatever, even a tick box on a website) or a paper mandate are fully acceptable (it is only the paper mandate that has to follow the EPC's guidelines).

A qualified electronic signature can be used if the creditor wants but it is totally optional.

The creditor chooses the type of mandate but cannot discriminated based on location of the payment account.

If there exists legacy Irish laws (not bank rules as these are superseded by Reg 260/2012 and the EPC schemes) that are in conflict with the EPC schemes and with current Irish law (an EU regulation is Irish law) than I would happily point this out to the EPC and the European Commission.

The European Commission would, most certainly, not be happy about this.

Well, why don't you try to sign up for a direct debit with a non-Irish account and once they refuse to take it paperless start complaining and let us know how you get on. And good luck trying to get the EU to take action, I had a total of 9 complaints with them about SEPA and it took ages to get it resolved.

The Banking & Payments Federation Ireland also has a handy SEPA Guide which outlines the above information too.

I had the government argue with me twice that they require a paper mandate for non-Irish accounts and only once the EU opened an official investigation (with the prospect of a fine) that was dropped and an alternative solution deployed.

Unfortunately, the statue is not calling this out and companies follow the BPFI guidance which is paper for non-Irish accounts.

Let us know how you get on with your fight because I finally managed to get all my direct debits over to a non-Irish account (even the government ones) so I have nothing to fight at the minute in that area.

The Bishop Basher · 07-03-2019 9:33am

I've mailed 123 and asked them to confirm their position in writing.

Will see what they come back with.

Yggr of Asgard · 07-03-2019 9:35am

McGaggs wrote: »

I caused myself a load of issues when I tried to change the DD to a Bunq IBAN. Whoever set up 3s SEPA system didn't realise that there's no standard length for IBANs. The IE and DE ones are the same length, but NL is shorter.

[Yes, I did go through a phase of opening a lot of online bank accounts, but I decided to use Bunq for DDs as I liked having to approve all DDs veggie they are paid. It's also handy to budget with different Bunq accounts for different expenses, like people would have done in the olden days with cash in envelopes. I don't have a Bunq card, and I got on board before they started charging]

Bunq is great due to the way that they show you the direct debit info for approval once they receive the advance notice and the ability to generate loads of accounts so that you can give different accounts to different people. And the free option is good if you don't need a card.

user1842 · 07-03-2019 9:39am

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Well, why don't you try to sign up for a direct debit with a non-Irish account and once they refuse to take it paperless start complaining and let us know how you get on. And good luck trying to get the EU to take action, I had a total of 9 complaints with them about SEPA and it took ages to get it resolved.

The Banking & Payments Federation Ireland also has a handy SEPA Guide which outlines the above information too.

I had the government argue with me twice that they require a paper mandate for non-Irish accounts and only once the EU opened an official investigation (with the prospect of a fine) that was dropped and an alternative solution deployed.

Unfortunately, the statue is not calling this out and companies follow the BPFI guidance which is paper for non-Irish accounts.

Let us know how you get on with your fight because I finally managed to get all my direct debits over to a non-Irish account (even the government ones) so I have nothing to fight at the minute in that area.

Can you provide me a link that notes the BPFI guidance which states "paper mandates for non-Irish accounts"?

If true I will most certainly follow this up along with any other company not accepting EU IBANs.

Yggr of Asgard · 07-03-2019 9:43am

user1842 wrote: »

Can you provide me a link that notes the BPFI guidance which states "paper mandates for non-Irish accounts"?

If true I will most certainly follow this up along with any other company not accepting EU IBANs.

Section 4.2 of the BPFI SEPA Guide for Business Customers Version 2.1 which can be found on:

https://www.bpfi.ie/customer-assist/business-customers/sepa-guides-for-business/

stockshares · 08-03-2019 5:23pm

I've been refused an N26 account. When I contacted their support they refused to give a reason and just broke off the Chat.

I presume its because they thought my selfie photo did not match the passport photo but I never got a chance to ask.

Does anyone know if its possible to apply again.

I have been accepted for Revolut and I'm awaiting delivery of my Card.

Number26/N26 Mastercard/Account now for Irish Residents

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