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Biological males in women's sport

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    #1052
    El CabaIIo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭El CabaIIo


    Danzy wrote: »
    Those 2 lads are not far off women's record times for that event.

    Given the age and times being going for the Olympics in 2024 and 2028 with medal prospects is a reasonable goal.

    Terry will be running at a national level in a year at this rate.

    Make a million.

    I'm not sure how this one will work out. I've been following this a bit over on Letsrun from people involved in the track and field community over there and different organisations are governed by different laws.

    State laws in Connecticut do not require hormone treatment or surgical changes, identity takes 100% precedence there and once a doctor signs off that a person identifies as a certain gender, birth certificates are changed. The schools and state have to live by state laws but I'm not sure what law regional and National meets are tied to so while a biological male who has no hormone treatment or changes can win a state title, it's very possible that they could be excluded from Regional or National meets.

    Then with the IAAF, NCAA and IOC is a different story altogether as they operate outside of the law to a certain extent under human rights and have the ability to change sex demarcations to their own standard but are open to lawsuits if someone disagrees with those thresholds.

    I don't know what the situation is in Connecticut is regarding if they are are on hormones blockers or anything as they don't have to prove anything other than what is stated in the State law on gender identity policies that the schools have to abide by. i.e If I as a biological male wanted to run Connecticut female state championships in April, I could do so without any changes but if wanted to run a female IAAF meet a week after, I wouldn't be able to unless I met the IAAF requirements to be recognised as a female which would require hormone blockers.

    The whole thing is a mess really no matter which side of the debate you fall on.


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    #1053
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    A mess is right! I suppose the lack of consistency across the sporting bodies speaks to the lack of consensus among the medical and sporting fraternity. It’s unfortunate and also deeply unfair to all the athletes - trans and cis - involved.
    Take the case of Mack Beggs, the young trans wrestler (FtM) from Texas. Unlike Connecticut, Texas high school competition dictates that you must compete according to the gender on your birth cert, so this 18 year old boy was wrestling girls while undergoing medical transition! I believe he had a TUE for his hormonal therapy. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either.


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    #1054
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    And another one..but there is no threat posed to women's sports by this right? It's more important to be nice and inclusive


    A top-ranked runner in NCAA women’s track is dominating the competition and setting records one year after competing as a man at the same level.

    Franklin Pierce University senior CeCe Telfer leads the NCAA’s Division II women’s division in the 55 meter dash and 55 meter hurdle events. Telfer led Franklin Pierce’s women’s track team into the top 25 rankings for the first time in program’s history, local newspaper The Keene Sentinel reported in December. The New Hampshire college is ranked 14th in DII.

    Senior CeCe Telfer (Lebanon, N.H.) won three Northeast-10 Conference titles on Sunday, to lead the Franklin Pierce University women’s track & field team and earn Most Outstanding Track Athlete honors at the NE10 Championships, hosted by American International College, on the campus of Smith College,” reads a Feb. 17 article the school’s athletic department posted.

    Telfer broke the conference finals record at the meet and qualified for three different events at March’s NCAA championships, the article noted. (RELATED: Male Runners Dominate Girls’ High School Track, Female Runner Calls It ‘Demoralizing’)

    Telfer is one of the fastest runners in NCAA women’s track and field at any division — not just at the DII level. Telfer’s best time in the 55 meter dash is tied with the third-fastest runner at the women’s DI level.

    Telfer previously ran a variety of events for Franklin Pierce’s men’s team, during most of which time he went by the first name Craig, according to school records.

    Telfer competed on Franklin Pierce’s men’s team as recently as January 2018, according to published meet results from the Middlebury Winter Classic in Vermont. By that point Telfer had started using the name CeCe, while still competing on the men’s team.

    NCAA policy is that male athletes who identify as transgender can compete on women’s teams if they suppress their testosterone levels for a full calendar year. Otherwise, so-called mixed teams — which have both males and females — can compete in the men’s division, but not in the women’s division, according to NCAA rules.

    The NCAA in 2011 published an explainer calling it “not well founded” to assume “that being born with a male body automatically gives a transgender woman an unfair advantage when competing against non-transgender women.”

    “Transgender women display a great deal of physical variation, just as there is a great deal of natural variation in physical size and ability among non-transgender women and men. Many people may have a stereotype that all transgender women are unusually tall and have large bones and muscles. But that is not true,” the explainer states.

    “A male-to-female transgender woman may be small and slight, even if she is not on hormone blockers or taking estrogen. It is important not to overgeneralize. The assumption that all male-bodied people are taller, stronger, and more highly skilled in a sport than all female-bodied people is not accurate,” it continues.

    This person is not "small and slight" and is now jumping over hurdles that are 6 inches lower than in the male competition. But they don't have an advantage ..hmm


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    #1055
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Candamir wrote: »
    A mess is right! I suppose the lack of consistency across the sporting bodies speaks to the lack of consensus among the medical and sporting fraternity. It’s unfortunate and also deeply unfair to all the athletes - trans and cis - involved.
    Take the case of Mack Beggs, the young trans wrestler (FtM) from Texas. Unlike Connecticut, Texas high school competition dictates that you must compete according to the gender on your birth cert, so this 18 year old boy was wrestling girls while undergoing medical transition! I believe he had a TUE for his hormonal therapy. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either.

    At least as a biological female he's not going to cause too much harm.

    Although I agree that's it not fair on the girls having to wrestle somebody who's taking performance enhancing drugs. Especially when scholarships are at stake.


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    #1056
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    “Transgender women display a great deal of physical variation, just as there is a great deal of natural variation in physical size and ability among non-transgender women and men. Many people may have a stereotype that all transgender women are unusually tall and have large bones and muscles. But that is not true,” the explainer states.

    “A male-to-female transgender woman may be small and slight, even if she is not on hormone blockers or taking estrogen. It is important not to overgeneralize. The assumption that all male-bodied people are taller, stronger, and more highly skilled in a sport than all female-bodied people is not accurate,” it continues.

    Talk about spectacularly missing the point!

    The argument is not that the physicality of a transgender woman will be an advantage over all cis women! The argument is that a man who transitions after puberty will have a physical advantage because of male puberty - he will achieve physical attributes that he would not have achieved if he had not had a male puberty - so an advantage over his pre pubesant (or female post puberty) self.

    My 8 year old daughter will never achieve the lofty 6’2’ or the ‘brick **** house’esq body of my 16 year old son, but that’s not to say that somewhere out there, there isn’t a woman who is bigger than him.


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    #1057
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Candamir wrote: »
    The argument is that a man who transitions after puberty will have a physical advantage because of male puberty - he will achieve physical attributes that he would not have achieved if he had not had a male puberty - so an advantage over his pre pubesant (or female post puberty) self.
    .

    I agree with your point, am just using your post to point out something that bothers me.

    There is a lot of talk regarding the advantages of having gone through male puberty, in terms of sporting ability. I agree this is so.
    But the potential problem I see is that this fact - or the repetition of this fact, casually or carelessly - may be used to justify ever earlier transition of children.
    Puberty is coming earlier all the time in new generations, to the point that 9 or 10 is considered not unusual, whereas it used to be 13 or more. There is no way a child of that age, (and in my opinion even much older, but that's another day's work!) can be so certain of such a huge decision which, if medicalised, as is being promoted at the moment, rather than treated with a wait and see approach, or cognitive training for coping with dysphoria etc etc, will have such radical life long consequences.

    The funny thing is I agree with McKinnon when they say that a trans person should not have to be surgically changed or to have their hormones messed with in any way - they should be able to express their gender as they feel inclined, without any medical intervention, which is more and more proven to be harmful for the body. Just that they cannot then compete against people whose biology simply cannot compete with theirs.


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    #1058
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Zorya wrote: »
    I agree with your point, am just using your post to point out something that bothers me.

    There is a lot of talk regarding the advantages of having gone through male puberty, in terms of sporting ability. I agree this is so.
    But the potential problem I see is that this fact - or the repetition of this fact, casually or carelessly - may be used to justify ever earlier transition of children.
    Puberty is coming earlier all the time in new generations, to the point that 9 or 10 is considered not unusual, whereas it used to be 13 or more. There is no way a child of that age, (and in my opinion even much older, but that's another day's work!) can be so certain of such a huge decision which, if medicalised, as is being promoted at the moment, rather than treated with a wait and see approach, or cognitive training for coping with dysphoria etc etc, will have such radical life long consequences.

    .

    That's the feeling I got from the article about andraya yearwood and Terry Miller. It's so unfair that they can't take puberty blockers or hormones. Eh, no it's called protecting children and acting in their best interests, something that people seem to be in a rush to forget when it comes to transgender issues. How anyone can advocate for giving children growth stunting, sterilising drugs with long term health effects is honestly beyond my comprehension.


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    #1059
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    That's the feeling I got from the article about andraya yearwood and Terry Miller. It's so unfair that they can't take puberty blockers or hormones. Eh, no it's called protecting children and acting in their best interests, something that people seem to be in a rush to forget when it comes to transgender issues. How anyone can advocate for giving children growth stunting, sterilising drugs with long term health effects is honestly beyond my comprehension.

    The thing is that puberty can destroy a transgender person's life, it's after affects in adulthood can be devastating. When they are adults, they don't want the effects of puberty that made them change from a young child to an adult teenager. And they undergo all sorts of treatments in adulthood to correct the effects of puberty.

    Yes giving puberty blockers at such a young age I agree is some serious life changing stuff. If only puberty happened at aged 18 in an ideal world, we wouldn't be discussing it. What is the answer and solution to all this, I don't know. It's a moral dilemma. Perhaps using a minor puberty blocker(maybe 20% of the full effect) instead of a full blocker, if it exists? Please don't take that as supporting full puberty blockers, i'm just putting that out there as a possible compromise if it exists. I like most here are not medical scientists! ;)

    As for the 2 American school runners who I agree that they have an unfair advantage, they will get a serious physical shock when they try to compete as females under IAAF rules, hormone therapy and all that, are they ready for life changing results?
    As we have had self-ID in Ireland since late 2015, I have not noticed a single case of a sporting issue regarding transgenders, are Irish sporting bodies really ready for any controversy? I had asked on another thread about the GAA rules on transgender competitors but no-one had answered.

    The poster El CabaIIo put it so eloquently that the matter is a whole mess.


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    #1060
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    The thing is that puberty can destroy a transgender person's life, it's after affects in adulthood can be devastating. When they are adults, they don't want the effects of puberty that made them change from a young child to an adult teenager. And they undergo all sorts of treatments in adulthood to correct the effects of puberty.

    Yes giving puberty blockers at such a young age I agree is some serious life changing stuff. If only puberty happened at aged 18 in an ideal world, we wouldn't be discussing it. What is the answer and solution to all this, I don't know. It's a moral dilemma. Perhaps using a minor puberty blocker(maybe 20% of the full effect) instead of a full blocker, if it exists? Please don't take that as supporting full puberty blockers, i'm just putting that out there as a possible compromise if it exists. I like most here are not medical scientists! ;)

    As for the 2 American school runners who I agree that they have an unfair advantage, they will get a serious physical shock when they try to compete as females under IAAF rules, hormone therapy and all that, are they ready for life changing results?
    As we have had self-ID in Ireland since late 2015, I have not noticed a single case of a sporting issue regarding transgenders, are Irish sporting bodies really ready for any controversy? I had asked on another thread about the GAA rules on transgender competitors but no-one had answered.

    The poster El CabaIIo put it so eloquently that the matter is a whole mess.

    It is really a mess and a moral dilemma on so many levels, because it is such a difficult subject, in all aspects. One of the reasons I think behind the hyper promotion of puberty blockers in early puberty and then cross sex hormones at 16 (and advocating for them at earlier ages ! ) seems to be to help people ''pass'' later on in life, because it is undeniable that a late transitioner does not ''look'' as good as a early one. For sure. The effects of feminising and masuclinising hormones is quite profound on a young body.

    But this has to be balanced up against the fact that there is a significant social contagion element, that there are significant risks to the medication, that many desist before any treatment if wait and see is adopted, that there is autogynophelia in many cases which should not be subjected to the risk of the sexual disfunction and infertility that can happen with hormones / surgery, that for many dysphoria persists no matter what, that co-morbidity with autism, anxiety etc has to be addressed, and that people are beginning to detrans in ever greater numbers. Among many other things.

    It is just not good to barge in with medicalising issues that may present in childhood unnecessarily and irrevocably.

    It's a mine field. The whole thing.


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    #1061
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Zorya wrote: »
    It is really a mess and a moral dilemma on so many levels, because it is such a difficult subject, in all aspects. One of the reasons I think behind the hyper promotion of puberty blockers in early puberty and then cross sex hormones at 16 (and advocating for them at earlier ages ! ) seems to be to help people ''pass'' later on in life, because it is undeniable that a late transitioner does not ''look'' as good as a early one. For sure. The effects of feminising and masuclinising hormones is quite profound on a young body.

    But this has to be balanced up against the fact that there is a significant social contagion element, that there are significant risks to the medication, that many desist before any treatment if wait and see is adopted, that there is autogynophelia in many cases which should not be subjected to the risk of the sexual disfunction and infertility that can happen with hormones / surgery, that for many dysphoria persists no matter what, that co-morbidity with autism, anxiety etc has to be addressed, and that people are beginning to detrans in ever greater numbers. Among many other things.

    It is just not good to barge in with medicalising issues that may present in childhood unnecessarily and irrevocably.

    It's a mine field. The whole thing.

    Its a minefield and one that will no doubt cause allot more controversy as the trans community move more and more towards medical intervention before the age of 18.

    All we need is one really good abuse story and allot of the groundwork on trans rights/equality will be undone.


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    #1062
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    Zorya wrote: »
    I agree with your point, am just using your post to point out something that bothers me.

    There is a lot of talk regarding the advantages of having gone through male puberty, in terms of sporting ability. I agree this is so.
    But the potential problem I see is that this fact - or the repetition of this fact, casually or carelessly - may be used to justify ever earlier transition of children.
    Puberty is coming earlier all the time in new generations, to the point that 9 or 10 is considered not unusual, whereas it used to be 13 or more. There is no way a child of that age, (and in my opinion even much older, but that's another day's work!) can be so certain of such a huge decision which, if medicalised, as is being promoted at the moment, rather than treated with a wait and see approach, or cognitive training for coping with dysphoria etc etc, will have such radical life long consequences.

    The funny thing is I agree with McKinnon when they say that a trans person should not have to be surgically changed or to have their hormones messed with in any way - they should be able to express their gender as they feel inclined, without any medical intervention, which is more and more proven to be harmful for the body. Just that they cannot then compete against people whose biology simply cannot compete with theirs.


    I agree with all that. I’m very uncomfortable with the idea of very young kids (or even moderately young - in fact I’d be happier if they were well established in adulthood before transition) taking puberty blockers.
    Listening to the expert from the evidence based medicine (of which I’m a big fan) unit at oxford university on the BBC program last night, the evidence is just not there to fully advise and consent these kids and their parents.
    There are all kinds of unintended consequences - we’ve already heard the (unsurprising) evidence for cardiovascular disease as a result of androgen therapy, and I believe there’s strong(if not definitive) evidence that puberty blockers have a severely detrimental effect on future fertility. Prepubescent kids can’t possibly know if they want to be parents in the future.
    There’s way too many unknowns.


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    #1063
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    klaaaz wrote: »
    The thing is that puberty can destroy a transgender person's life, it's after affects in adulthood can be devastating. When they are adults, they don't want the effects of puberty that made them change from a young child to an adult teenager. And they undergo all sorts of treatments in adulthood to correct the effects of puberty.

    Yes giving puberty blockers at such a young age I agree is some serious life changing stuff. If only puberty happened at aged 18 in an ideal world, we wouldn't be discussing it. What is the answer and solution to all this, I don't know. It's a moral dilemma. Perhaps using a minor puberty blocker(maybe 20% of the full effect) instead of a full blocker, if it exists? Please don't take that as supporting full puberty blockers, i'm just putting that out there as a possible compromise if it exists. I like most here are not medical scientists! ;)

    As for the 2 American school runners who I agree that they have an unfair advantage, they will get a serious physical shock when they try to compete as females under IAAF rules, hormone therapy and all that, are they ready for life changing results?
    As we have had self-ID in Ireland since late 2015, I have not noticed a single case of a sporting issue regarding transgenders, are Irish sporting bodies really ready for any controversy? I had asked on another thread about the GAA rules on transgender competitors but no-one had answered.

    The poster El CabaIIo put it so eloquently that the matter is a whole mess.

    It's a mine field alright. I get that puberty can be distressing for someone with gender dysphoria and I really do feel for them. But I also get that a lot of these kids will "grow out" of it, for want of a better word. Also, puberty is an essential process for physical and mental growth. Not going through it and developing fully also has implications for future gender surgery when it comes to trans women, as there isn't enough there to "work with" surgically.


    There is no way a teenager is capable of making an informed decision about this, given the potential for life long side effects which could impact their quality of life. At least the impact of going through puberty can be treated and corrected with known results later in life. The effects of not going through it and being put on cross sex hormones may never be corrected and it's not ethical for children to basically be test subjects.


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    #1064
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    But this has to be balanced up against the fact that there is a significant social contagion element, that there are significant risks to the medication, that many desist before any treatment if wait and see is adopted, that there is autogynophelia in many cases which should not be subjected to the risk of the sexual disfunction and infertility that can happen with hormones / surgery, that for many dysphoria persists no matter what, that co-morbidity with autism, anxiety etc has to be addressed, and that people are beginning to detrans in ever greater numbers. Among many other things.

    There you go again, labelling transgender people under an offensive made up buzzword. The conversation was civil until you introduced that word which was invented by a has been from the last century.


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    #1065
    metaoblivia
    Registered Users Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭metaoblivia


    So far it seems track and field are taking the most of these cases and/or sports where most men would clearly have an advantage over most women. Would be interesting to see a transgender woman try to go for something like women's gymnastics (hopefully post-op - because you're gonna split the beam at some point) or figure skating.


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    #1066
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    There you go again, labelling transgender people under an offensive made up buzzword. The conversation was civil until you introduced that word which was invented by a has been from the last century.


    Im not meaning to be offensive. The last century was 19 years ago. Transgender was a word made up a few decades ago at most, if even that. Many words are made up. I think it was Ray Blanchard who used autogynophelia. He worked with transgender people for a very long time and his research on autogynophelia was the result of information gathered from the wives of transgender people. I said it is one factor, not the factor. Some transgender people experience autogynophelia, I think this is quite likely. Some even write about it themselves. Can't google and post on this ancient phone so going by memory.


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    #1067
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    Im not meaning to be offensive. The last century was 19 years ago. Transgender was a word made up a few decades ago at most, if even that. Many words are made up. I think it was Ray Blanchard who used autogynophelia. He worked with transgender people for a very long time and his research on autogynophelia was the result of information gathered from the wives of transgender people. I said it is one factor, not the factor. Some transgender people experience autogynophelia, I think this is quite likely. Some even write about it themselves. Can't google and post on this ancient phone so going by memory.

    You had said it happens in many cases without any proof. It is not even considered by gender clinics here or in fact anywhere else as a factor. A person being transgender is not a sexual fetish which is offensive to them despite your best efforts at a slur on them.


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    #1068
    wobatkicker23
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭wobatkicker23


    I know a guy who used to go into women's changing rooms to perve all under the guise of being a transgender person.


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    #1069
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    klaaaz wrote: »
    You had said it happens in many cases without any proof. It is not even considered by gender clinics here or in fact anywhere else as a factor. A person being transgender is not a sexual fetish which is offensive to them despite your best efforts at a slur on them.

    Crossdressing as a sexual fetish still exists and it does come under the transgender umbrella these days. You seem to be familiar with Reddit, there are many posts on the asktransgender forum by men who get aroused by dressing as women and asking if this means they are trans. They are usually told that yes it does.

    That's not saying all transgender people have a fetish, obviously not. But some do, and maybe they aren't even transgender at all but they are counted as such

    But all this is totally off topic on a thread about sports


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    #1070
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Crossdressing as a sexual fetish still exists and it does come under the transgender umbrella these days. You seem to be familiar with Reddit, there are many posts on the asktransgender forum by men who get aroused by dressing as women.

    That's not saying all transgender people have a fetish, obviously not. But some do, and maybe they aren't even transgender at all but they are counted as such

    That's transvestites if even that's a correct term to use these days. Okay, there needs to be a distinction between those men who dress up for sexual kicks and those who have gender dysphoria who do medically transition to female. The general public do treat transgender people as having gender dysphoria, just look at the reaction to someone "coming out"! This is in contrast to those who have a sexual fetish despite the description of the umbrella term you mentioned.


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    #1071
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    You had said it happens in many cases without any proof. It is not even considered by gender clinics here or in fact anywhere else as a factor. A person being transgender is not a sexual fetish which is offensive to them despite your best efforts at a slur on them.

    I should perhaps have said a percentage or portion of transgender people are autogynophelic. By many I meant a significant number, like I did re autism, detransing people, etc. I have seen quite a number of transgender people write on autogynophelia, both their own and within the community. Of course any theory is open for debate, but so far I reckon it has some merit.


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    #1072
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    klaaaz wrote: »
    That's transvestites if even that's a correct term to use these days. Okay, there needs to be a distinction between those men who dress up for sexual kicks and those who have gender dysphoria who do medically transition to female. The general public do treat transgender people as having gender dysphoria, just look at the reaction to someone "coming out"! This is in contrast to those who have a sexual fetish despite the description of the umbrella term you mentioned.

    Yes there used to be a distinction. I feel for the person genuinely suffering from dysphoria, just trying to live their lives stuck in the middle of all this. They aren't very well represented in the movement at all these days it seems


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    #1073
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    That's transvestites if even that's a correct term to use these days. Okay, there needs to be a distinction between those men who dress up for sexual kicks and those who have gender dysphoria who do medically transition to female. The general public do treat transgender people as having gender dysphoria, just look at the reaction to someone "coming out"! This is in contrast to those who have a sexual fetish despite the description of the umbrella term you mentioned.

    Are you saying gender dysphoria doesn't exist? There are endless trans people on youtube and elsewhere who speak and write about their dysphoria.


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    #1074
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    I should perhaps have said a percentage or portion of transgender people are autogynophelic. By many I meant a significant number, like I did re autism, detransing people, etc. I have seen quite a number of transgender people write on autogynophelia, both their own and within the community. Of course any theory is open for debate, but so far I reckon it has some merit.

    Who knows what percentage that is. There is a pathway that prospective transgender people undergo which involves being under scrutiny meeting psychologists and psychiatrists to evaluate gender dysphoria, it ain't easy for them. Perhaps your experience is from "crossdressers or transvestites" when using the umbrella term?
    Zorya wrote:
    Are you saying gender dysphoria doesn't exist? There are endless trans people on youtube and elsewhere who speak and write about their dysphoria.

    Gender dysphoria does exist, where have I doubted it? As you know, I do leap to the defence of these people so I have no idea how you draw that conclusion. And why you keep referencing youtube is beyond belief, anyone can claim anything on that platform.


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    #1075
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Who knows what percentage that is. There is a pathway that prospective transgender people undergo which involves being under scrutiny meeting psychologists and psychiatrists to evaluate gender dysphoria, it ain't easy for them. Perhaps your experience is from "crossdressers or transvestites" when using the umbrella .

    According to David Bell and others recently resigned from Tavistock one or two visits in some cases, and kids are regurgitating coached speeches. These are the medical people with on the ground experience, unlike us.


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    #1076
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Zorya wrote: »
    According to David Bell and others recently resigned from Tavistock one or two visits in some cases, and kids are regurgitating coached speeches. These are the medical people with on the ground experience, unlike us.

    Damn those trans radicals seem to be fairly unethical if they are coaching kids on what to say.


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    #1077
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    According to David Bell and others recently resigned from Tavistock one or two visits in some cases, and kids are regurgitating coached speeches. These are the medical people with on the ground experience, unlike us.

    That's nothing to do with "autogynophelic".

    From your earlier post https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109523929&postcount=1014
    Zorya wrote:
    Personally I don't think we should be encouraging people to go swiftly towards surgery as surgery is such a heavy step to take, and essentially mutilating. It is an enorrmous decision to make before the frontal cortex is fully developed in the mid 20s. There are so many young girls detransitioning now in their early 20s, and have to deal with the left overs from testosterone, like hairiness, male pattern baldness, deeper voices. Some have had their breasts removed , and as they say they have to live now with the scars.

    Your concern is with female at birth teenagers in these UK based clinics, yes? (which is not relevant to the sport topic at hand) Just asking for clarification.


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    #1078
    Ultros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭Ultros


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Okay, there needs to be a distinction between those men who dress up for sexual kicks and those who have gender dysphoria who do medically transition to female.

    There isn't just two groups. Outside of the genuine people who feel that they have gender dysphoria, there's a multiple of reasons why people will attach themselves to such a movement. Human nature can't be trusted unfortunately and illness's mental or otherwise can't be discounted, nor can social problems etc or the impact at least in the US of indoctrinating social study courses. I read a story the other day where a trans man burned down his house with his pets alive inside because a LGBT law was signed into law and he/she had nothing left to protest against.

    Disclaimer - Not trying to stir the pot or insinuate that it's all a big farce, it's not my intention to insult or belittle those who are genuine.

    https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/02/25/gay-rights-leader-accused-burning-down-home/2816523002/


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    #1079
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    How many men are on this thread? This is an issue that is going to destroy women's sports. Leave it to women to battle it out.


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    #1080
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    backspin. wrote: »
    How many men are on this thread? This is an issue that is going to destroy women's sports. Leave it to women to battle it out.

    Men don't have sisters, mothers, lovers, daughters, friends?
    Are you saying this as a backlash against radical feminism, because that is what some are going for, the old schadenfreude vibe?
    There are women of different ideological persuasions objecting to this.


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    #1081
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Zorya wrote: »
    Men don't have sisters, mothers, lovers, daughters, friends?
    Are you saying this as a backlash against radical feminism, because that is what some are going for, the old schadenfreude vibe?
    There are women of different ideological persuasions objecting to this.

    You are right, but I think women should be leading the way on this. An internal battle needs to take place where ordinary women take on the crazy leftists among them. Those leftists can too easily dismiss men's opinions as patriarchal oppression. But they will have to face women head on.


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