Biological males in women's sport

kildare lad

First it was Martina Navratilova. Then Paula Radcliffe and Kelly Holmes. Now, almost with every passing day, there are more voices wading into the issue of whether transgender competitors should be allowed to take part in women’s sport.

Over the weekend, the swimmer Sharron Davies, a silver medallist at the 1980 Olympics, became the latest to lend her support to a campaign led by the pressure group Fair Play for Women. “I believe there is a fundamental difference between the binary sex you are born with and the gender you may identify as,” Davies said. “To protect women’s sport, those with a male sex advantage should not be able to compete in women’s sport.”

Her remarks drew criticism from Rachel McKinnon, a transgender cyclist who won a Masters Track World Championship title in October, who said Davies was a “transphobe” and was “sharing hate speech”.

“There is no debate to be had over whether trans women athletes have an unfair advantage: it’s clear that they don’t,” McKinnon wrote. “Since the Nov 2003 IOC policy openly allowing trans women to compete, not a single trans athlete has even qualified for the Olympics, let alone won a medal.”

But Fair Play for Women insists women are clearly disadvantaged at both elite and grassroots level when they compete against trans athletes.

“Claims of transphobia are wild and unfounded,” its spokeswoman Dr Nicola Williams told the Guardian. “It is a tool used to shame women into silence. We want to get past not being able to speak out and to encourage a debate that leads to sports bodies implementing policies that are fair to women.

“We have actively tried to reach out to high-profile former athletes like Sharron and Martina to say: look, we have a problem here. Because I know of some women athletes who have been told they will have their sponsorship removed if they speak about this issue which could threaten their careers.”

All scientists agree that testosterone during growth, puberty and maturation results in large differences between the sexes. The debate is whether those advantages are lost if a trans gender athlete takes medication to reduce that testosterone.

As things stand, the International Olympic Committee allows trans women to compete as long as they have been reducing their testosterone levels for 12 months. However, Fair Play for Women believes there is little science behind the IOC’s policy and says there is a “legacy effect of testosterone” that gives an unfair strength advantage even after the current level of the hormone is reduced.

Governing bodies are clearly undecided about how best to deal with the questions of gender, biology and identity that arise from the issue. Last year Hannah Mouncey, a former member of the Australian men’s handball team, was blocked from playing in Aussie rules football’s professional women’s league on the grounds of strength and physique.

However, Laurel Hubbard, a New Zealand weightlifter who competed in men’s competition before transitioning at the age of 35, was allowed to take part in the 2018 Commonwealth Games.

The issue is also of increasing importance in schools and grassroots sport. Some US states, for instance, allow people to self-identify as women without reducing their testosterone, which Williams says could impact on others getting sporting scholarships for college, which would be unfair and discriminatory.

“Self-identification policies, where someone simply has to declare
themselves as female, will have a impact on the women and girls competing now and in the future,” she said. “It is so vastly unfair. Why would you want to compete in a sport where you literally can never win?

“The problem is national governing bodies in the UK don’t have a policy on this. Whenever I speak to them they say the policy is under review – they are always waiting for someone else to make the first move. We are in limbo now and it is causing problems.”

On Sunday, Navratilova, who had a trans coach, apologised for saying a fortnight ago that trans athletes were cheating. “I’m sorry for that because I certainly was not suggesting that transgender athletes in general are cheats,” she said. “I attached the label to a notional case in which someone cynically changes gender, perhaps temporarily, to gain a competitive advantage. We should not be blind to the possibility and some of these rules are making that possible and legal.”

Both Navratilova and Davies are calling for sports bodies to debate the issue. However, the LGBT rights group Stonewall insists the sports bodies must be fair on transgender athletes, too. “Sport should be welcoming to everyone, including trans people,” it said. “We need clubs and governing bodies, as the experts, to consider how their sports’ individual policies can work to be as inclusive as possible, to ensure all people, including trans people, can take part in sport.”

Radcliffe, meanwhile, who has previously said trans women being able to compete “makes a mockery of the definitions of male and female sports categories”, said: “People are scared to talk about the issue. But I believe protecting women’s sport is important.”

kildare lad

laurel Hubbard who was mentioned in the article above, transitioned at the age of 35 heres an article about her competing, it just shows how ridiculous it is having transpeople in sports

This past weekend, New Zealand's Laurel Hubbard set new masters world records while competing at the World Masters Games in Auckland, New Zealand. Hubbard made a splash in March when she was the first transgender woman to represent New Zealand in weightlifting at the 2017 Australasian Championships. At that meet, Hubbard snatched 123kg/271lb and clean & jerked 145kg/319lb on her way to gold across the board and new New Zealand weightlifting records.

At the World Masters Games this past weekend, Hubbard again competed in the women's 90+kg in the 35-39 age range. She snatched 131kg/288lb and clean & jerked 149kg/328lb to set new masters world records in the snatch, clean & jerk, and total.


Laurel Hubbard's transition from her previous life as Gavin to her new life as a dominant female weightlifter has been highly publicized and people from everywhere have expressed their opinions on it. Through all of that, the heads of both the Australian and New Zealand have shared their support for her and her performances.

Ted Johnson

Isabela Sparse Cabinet wrote: »

The best women nowadays are men.

The patriarchy wins again.

uck51js9zml2yt

suicide_circus wrote: »

why the **** should they?

Because until they do, they will be all words and no action or credibility.
Time to stand up for the convictions...trans do!

Zorya

kildare lad wrote: »

Laurel Hubbard's transition from her previous life as Gavin to her new life as a dominant female weightlifter has been highly publicized and people from everywhere have expressed their opinions on it. Through all of that, the heads of both the Australian and New Zealand have shared their support for her and her performances.

When things get fixed, as they must, because it is too ridiculous now, I hope all these right-on powerful people will come out and confess to their previous fcuking eegitry.

And I also hope the proven advantage of going through male puberty will not be used to start blocking earlier - although logic would dictate that a male child whose puberty was completely prevented (which essentially means their development is grossly stunted) would never be strong enough to compete as an athlete, much less a world class one. Which should be used conversely to convince the public of undeniable advantage to the one who does go through puberty.

I saw recently that the lung size advantage - 10 to 15% - which is never reduced by any hormonal intervention in the future, is not being pushed enough.

mazcon

Rodrigo Brave Swimsuit wrote: »

Because until they do, they will be all words and no action or credibility.
Time to stand up for the convictions...trans do!

That's not a fair comparison. Female athletes stand to completely lose their careers if they speak out on this issue. Their sponsors will drop them like a hot snot if there's even a hint of controversy. Trans athletes only stand to gain by speaking out.

Wegian

Rodrigo Brave Swimsuit wrote: »

Because until they do, they will be all words and no action or credibility.
Time to stand up for the convictions...trans do!

Nonsense....if seeking to capitalize on an unfair advantage through bullying anyone with an opposing voice at the expense of female athletes careers under the cloak of inclusion is warped view of so called progress

ceadaoin.

Very good post here, with statistics detailing the discrepancies between male and female sporting performance and the reasons for it. Hint: it's not just that women aren't trying hard enough as McKinnon seems to think

https://fondofbeetles.wordpress.com/2018/10/01/harder-better-faster-stronger-why-we-must-protect-female-sports/

To sum up

Male puberty and testosterone. Testosterone, the androgen driving male physical development, is a wonderful hormone. It is responsible for advantageous skeletal features that develop during male puberty, such as increased height, increased bone size and density, longer limbs, wider hand spans and a narrower pelvis, all of which make a 100m sprint or a slam dunk far easier. It also directs hugely increased muscle building capacity, allowing higher absolute masses to be achieved in shorter training times, mass which, by the way, contains a higher proportion of fast twitch fibres (responsible for explosive power) than observed in female muscles. To support this superior physicality, males have greater lung capacity, a higher VO2 max (the amount of oxygen consumed during high intensity exercise), a bigger heart with faster stroke rate and higher levels of haemoglobin, and thus can oxygenate their muscles more efficiently.

Analysis of adult/senior female sporting performances demonstrate parity with males around the age of 15 years old for individual events, and perhaps younger in team sports (22). It’s no surprise that adult female athletes are outrun, outjumped, out thrown and outlifted when males get that all-important surge of testosterone that will propel their development into superior athletes. Testosterone-driven puberty has delivered us athletes like Usain Bolt, Sébastien Chabal and Anthony Joshua. As the original anabolic steroid (prior to steroids, performance enhancing drugs were stimulant or analgesic in nature), and used widely in the 1980s in state-led doping programmes, it has almost certainly delivered us a fair few elite females too.

Sex-segregation is necessary for female achievement. Female athletes are awesome creatures, pushing their bodies to ever further extremes in pursuit of sporting glory. Female sport is still largely overlooked in favour of its male equivalent, but the drive is there to increase participation in early years, to improve media coverage, to reward outstanding females with the fame, victory medals and, depending on the sport, prize money they deserve for being the best at what they do.

But males are harder. Males are better (at sports, at least). Males are faster. Males are stronger. The performance gap between male and female athletes is utterly astounding; it’s not a “gap”, it’s the Grand Canyon. Without sex-segregated sporting categories, the most wonderful 10.49s that female athletics has ever seen would be a footnote in history. We owe it to the female sports stars of today and to the girls who aspire to be tomorrow’s sporting heroes to fight for their right to take home gold.

Zorya

Doctor Rachel McKinnon's twitter response to Sharron Davies stepping into the fray...


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D07bIYkXQAAYRuV.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D07bIYjWwAc7kL2.jpg

And Sharron's tweeted response to the jibes...

https://twitter.com/sharrond62/status/1103068151162568705

benjamin d

Zorya wrote: »

Doctor Rachel McKinnon's twitter response to Sharron Davies stepping into the fray...


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D07bIYkXQAAYRuV.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D07bIYjWwAc7kL2.jpg

And Sharron's tweeted response to the jibes...

https://twitter.com/sharrond62/status/1103068151162568705

Nasty piece of work that McKinnon, and using the same tactics of criticising looks and femininity that her and her ilk denounce as "violence" when it's aimed at them.

I say let McKinnon be heard loud and clear, she'll bring this nonsense to an end quicker than anyone else with her horrible behaviour.

alan partridge aha

"IT" is an awful yoke.

FTA69

McKinnon is an utter c*nt. The worst example of a narcissistic bully.

yourdeadwright

Wasn't there a case in a US college recently where a male wrestler who kept coming second decided to identify as a women and went and won the women's section ,

To show how stupid it was the guy who won the heavyweight section decided to say he was being fat shamed and identified as a 155lbs athlete and went and won the light weight division ,

PC is gone mad and people need to cope themselves on,

yourdeadwright

These people have mental disorder's ,

How can any normal minded person think its ethically correct to cross form being a man to a women and compete in women sports ?

People are crazy for allowing this to happen ,

normanoffside

benjamin d wrote: »

Nasty piece of work that McKinnon, and using the same tactics of criticising looks and femininity that her and her ilk denounce as "violence" when it's aimed at them.

I say let McKinnon be heard loud and clear, she'll bring this nonsense to an end quicker than anyone else with her horrible behaviour.

She keeps retweeting pictures of New Zealand shot putter Valerie Adams to prove her point. Adams happens to be a tall and muscular female (vociferously anti doping by the way).

She is effectively body shaming her. Nasty person.

Mrsmum

How could you call McKinnon anything other than pathetic if that comment is a measure of her.

Zorya

Mrsmum wrote: »

How could you call McKinnon anything other than pathetic if that comment is a measure of her.

You should search for the video she made where she tells children who feel gender dysphoria to drop their circle of family and friends and find their true "glitter family" online. McKinnon also said kids could get in touch with her for support, an invitation that used to be known as grooming. McKinnon is obnoxious.

mzungu

Whatever about the situation of trans athletes competing (I would still like there to be a resolution that is fair on all) but McKinnon has to be engaging in one of the most blatant online bullying campaigns you are likely to comes across. She targets high profile athletes and yet manages to avoid any backlash.

I don't see these bullying campaigns being tolerated for too long.

gypsy79

kildare lad wrote: »

First it was Martina Navratilova. Then Paula Radcliffe and Kelly Holmes.

You do know the background on Kelly and paula.

Kelly in particular can throw stones esp considering her high profile falling out with the original caster

Paula refusing to release her passport too. The net is closing on her!!

normanoffside

gypsy79 wrote: »

You do know the background on Kelly and paula.

Kelly in particular can throw stones esp considering her high profile falling out with the original caster

Paula refusing to release her passport too. The net is closing on her!!

Allegations of potential doping (and I'd be first to criticise Paula on her hypocrisy) is a different argument to Biological women competing against transgender ones.

On that subject, this is interesting:

gypsy79

I was more pointing at Kelly who was let’s say very close to Maria Mutola. Androgenism isn’t a million miles away.

But paula always needs say something. The irony of her husband acting as cover for farah was mind blowing

When it comes to doping, let’s just say Kelly gets away very lightly. I know someone who shared a house with her and mutola

El CabaIIo

gypsy79 wrote: »

I was more pointing at Kelly who was let’s say very close to Maria Mutola. Androgenism isn’t a million miles away.

But paula always needs say something. The irony of her husband acting as cover for farah was mind blowing

When it comes to doping, let’s just say Kelly gets away very lightly. I know someone who shared a house with her and mutola

These are all very broad statements. What has your suspicions of Holmes and Mutola possible doping got to do with Hyperandrongenism? They aren't even remotely related, taking drugs like testosterone is not the same as producing and been sensitive to Test since birth. These conversations are a million miles away from each other.

As for Gary Lough been a cover for Farah, he's his coach. What was mindblowing and where is this cover story coming from because as an athletics fanatic who read 200 odd pages of the USADA report on the Oregon project, I haven't heard this mindblowing story yet.

suicide_circus

.

gypsy79

El CabaIIo wrote: »

These are all very broad statements. What has your suspicions of Holmes and Mutola possible doping got to do with Hyperandrongenism? They aren't even remotely related, taking drugs like testosterone is not the same as producing and been sensitive to Test since birth. These conversations are a million miles away from each other.

As for Gary Lough been a cover for Farah, he's his coach. What was mindblowing and where is this cover story coming from because as an athletics fanatic who read 200 odd pages of the USADA report on the Oregon project, I haven't heard this mindblowing story yet.

Mutola was suspected to have a condition similar to semenya

Gary Lough never coached farah. He was announced as coach to distract from NOP. If you think there is nothing ontoward happening at NOP then you haven’t read in right places

ceadaoin.

McKinnon can be identified as a male person a mile off. Davies is clearly a female person. It's nothing got to do with looks, and everything to do with reality.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Has anybody noticed how driven this ideology is from the US or Canada and how little resistance there is within the US to it? The resistance is from the U.K.

Littlehorny

Hopefully common sense will prevail and a clear set of rules is established in sports regarding men competing against women. What i can't believe is that more young female athletes aren't boycotting their high school or college sports if a man is entered against them, maybe they or their parents know they will get lambasted if they do.

For me this movement is going to get dangerous when combat sports have to allow transgender males to compete. What is going to happen if a women is killed in a mma or boxing or similar event?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Common sense is all very well but the legal situation in many countries is that a trans woman is a woman. In those circumstances it might be that the IOC’s fairly timid testosterone limits as illegal.

ceadaoin.

It's interesting that when the proposals for the British GRA were being discussed in 2004, every single major sporting association in the UK wanted an exemption for sports. That is, they wanted it to be written that biological males could not compete against females, regardless of how they identified. What happened?

Here, for example, is what the Football Association had to say back then

"The participation of transgender athletes in their acquired gender could threaten the fundamental requirement of a 'level playing field' in sport. We would have to consider mixed football rules if male to female transsexuals are allowed to compete in female football—mixed football is currently prohibited by the FA rules for players over the age of 10 due to the comparatively greater physical strength of male players—disparity in strength levels would in our view lead to increased risk of physical injury. Dope testing of transgender athletes would be extremely problematic. The Bill is potentially in conflict with the Sex Discrimination Act under section 44, which allows the restriction to one sex where the strength and stamina of the average woman would put her at a disadvantage to the average man. The issue of changing facilities is a management issue—we believe the individual concerned would be personally responsible for upholding standards of behaviour in changing rooms"

The Lawn Tennis Association:

we have already argued for an exemption in the Bill. The legal recognition of the acquired gender of transsexuals (particularly male to female transsexuals) would in all probability give the transsexual an unfair advantage in terms of strength, stamina and physique".

The British Judo Association:

"Whole-heartedly in favour of an exemption from the terms of the Bill to ensure the future of competitive sport is assured. Although the female competitors are every bit as good in technique, there is still a substantial gap between the levels of strength and it is not possible to mix elite male and female players"

And there were many more similar statements. For those official organisations to say those things today would be unacceptable to some, but nothing has changed. It is still true

normanoffside

This is some of the Vile stuff McKinnon is Retweeting.

I don't know how Valerie Adams holds her tongue; I just checked and she is active on twitter. . She must have the patience of a saint not to react.

She is heavily pregnant with her second child. I think having bourne a child and another one on board is more than enough qualification to compete in the female division :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/joss_prior/status/1103339009651208192

https://twitter.com/KirstiMiller30/status/1102325211980955649