The Last Mile

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 2:14pm #1

I'm facinated by the idea of last mile transport... stuff that allows you to get public transport and make it easy for you to get to and from that... skateboards, onewheels, folding bikes etc. Great way to reduce cars on the road & I think if more peoplke took them up, we'd have a much better transport system.

I'm very tempted to get the Xiaomi M365 Pro when it reaches the market, but as much as I think their great, I always think people look like dicks using them... especially when they bring it up to the deli counter in Centra...

So, am I the dick? I genuinely like the things... does anyone here use one? whats your thoughts on the whole last mile thing?

https://www.gearbest.com/electric-scooters/pp_009442707209.html?wid=1433363

AssaultedPeanut · 25-02-2019 2:35pm

I was only discussing this with my OH. We're looking for somewhere to buy in the near future (hopefully), I cycle everywhere but she isn't into it. Trying to find affordable stuff near public transport is quite tough. So I think a folding bike or a scooter like that would be ideal to cut out a 30/40 min walk to the luas.

I remember being in Barcelona about 6/7 years ago and noticing loads of people on scooters heading to work in suits and office clothes. At the time I thought it seemed a little weird but now I think it's great and happy that it's becoming a thing. Just took a while to adjust to the idea.

Alun · 25-02-2019 3:14pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

whats your thoughts on the whole last mile thing?

Walk?

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 3:20pm

Alun wrote: »

Walk?

I could easily say the sme for you and your car... Just walk.

My usage case BTW, would be to replace a 35 minute walk where time is pressured... I am not comfortable leaving my bike at public transport as they have been stolen & vandalised in the past. The purose is also to get to places where turning up in a sweat would not be appropriate.

Alun, while I appreciate your attempt at witt... no, I actually don't...

BeerNut · 25-02-2019 3:37pm

My first thought would be how you'd even attach a number plate to it; the second is whether any insurance company has a product that covers it; the third is that the necessity of carrying a helmet seriously detracts from the convenience. A folding bike would be a lot less hassle than trying to run one of these legally, IMO.

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 3:43pm

BeerNut wrote: »

My first thought would be how you'd even attach a number plate to it;

Not required by law. assisted vehicles like the Xiaomi fall under EU law L1e-A

BeerNut wrote: »

the second is whether any insurance company has a product that covers it;

Insurance is not required as it falls under EU law L1e-A

BeerNut wrote: »

the third is that the necessity of carrying a helmet seriously detracts from the convenience.

I don't believe helmets are required by law, but willing to be corrected.

BeerNut wrote: »

A folding bike would be a lot less hassle than trying to run one of these legally, IMO.

I can't see that being the case. Bikes are bigger, heavier, more difficult to store, more difficult to carry on packed public transport, more difficult to lock up in public, more difficult to bring into public buildings.

BeerNut · 25-02-2019 3:54pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Insurance is not required as it falls under EU law L1e-A

Don't they have to have pedals?

L1e-A: Powered cycle: cycles designed to pedal equipped with an auxiliary propulsion with the primary aim to aid pedalling

From Annex 1 here.

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 4:00pm

BeerNut wrote: »

Don't they have to have pedals?

From Annex 1 here.

The term pedal can be debated, but the intent is to aid haman propulsion... Pushing with your foot could be seen as similar to the act of pedalling & that is the standpoint that is being worked off by the manufacturers involved,

RayCun · 25-02-2019 4:05pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

whats your thoughts on the whole last mile thing?

RayCun · 25-02-2019 4:07pm

if you're talking about replacing a 35-40 minute walk, you are talking about "The Last 3 to 4km", not "The Last Mile"

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 4:11pm

RayCun wrote: »

if you're talking about replacing a 35-40 minute walk, you are talking about "The Last 3 to 4km", not "The Last Mile"

Thanks for being so pedantic. The catch all term is 'last mile transport'... my needs are slightly different. I will be careful to attend to your OCD, even though my previous comments seem to be pretty clear about what the usage might be.

I had to check twice that I hadn't posted this in After Hours.

BeerNut · 25-02-2019 4:14pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Pushing with your foot could be seen as similar to the act of pedalling

True. Will this run without it being pushed by foot?

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 4:24pm

BeerNut wrote: »

True. Will this run without it being pushed by foot?

No. You have to push with your feet or the motor will not assist you.

RayCun · 25-02-2019 4:24pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thanks for being so pedantic.

You're welcome.

While I have my pedant hat on, L1e-A refers to 'Powered cycles', not 'miscellaneous powered vehicles'.

Working class heroes · 25-02-2019 6:34pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thanks for being so pedantic. The catch all term is 'last mile transport'... my needs are slightly different. I will be careful to attend to your OCD, even though my previous comments seem to be pretty clear about what the usage might be.

I had to check twice that I hadn't posted this in After Hours.

Mmm, I think one of these contraptions might actually suit your personality.

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 6:39pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Mmm, I think one of these contraptions might actually suit your personality.

Likewise

wally79 · 25-02-2019 6:43pm

Saw this shortly after seeing thread. It will be interesting to see the outcome

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/rsa-to-examine-regulation-of-electric-scooters-1.3804729?mode=amp

prinzeugen · 25-02-2019 11:21pm

wally79 wrote: »

Saw this shortly after seeing thread. It will be interesting to see the outcome

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/rsa-to-examine-regulation-of-electric-scooters-1.3804729?mode=amp

The RSA should know there is no grey area with the law. Its here,

The Road Traffic Act of 1961 at Section 3(1) (a) and (b), defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as:

“a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including;
(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical, but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;”

Note the electrical bit. If the motor is capable of propelling you without physical effort, its is a MPV.

The manufacturers keep pushing this idea that they are legal when they are not.

Also being discussed here https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057872702/53/#post109482310

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 11:31pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

Note the partly electrical bit. If the motor is capable of propelling you without physical effort

What if it is not capable of propelling you without physical effort? That's where the lack of clarity seems to be. For instance the Xiaomi requires you to push or the motor will not engage.

magicbastarder · 25-02-2019 11:36pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thanks for being so pedantic.

maybe it's not them being pedantic, but you being unclear. suggesting walking is the most brutally obvious response when someone mentions 'the last mile' twice in their opening post, that i'm amazed you didn't expect or anticipate it, and clarify that without assuming the responses were disingenuous.
it's not their fault you actually meant 'the last *two* miles'.

Bluefoam · 25-02-2019 11:48pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thanks for being so pedantic.

maybe it's not them being pedantic, but you being unclear. suggesting walking is the most brutally obvious response when someone mentions 'the last mile' twice in their opening post, that i'm amazed you didn't expect or anticipate it, and clarify that without assuming the responses were disingenuous.
it's not their fault you actually meant 'the last *two* miles'.

Thanks, very helpful comment. I appreciate your input.

I thought I had laid out my question quite clearly, but I seem to be getting allot of answers which don't actually answer it.

I am well used to walking, cycling and using public transport. I live in the suburbs, don't own a car and get around by my own means and by public provision. I am not looking to replace walking, I have a particular use case which I have stated clearly above. I find it funny to look at the previous posts of some of the commenters here and see how car centric they are and that they think they're smart repeating the word 'walk' ad nauseum.

If you can't contribute productively, please refrain.

No wonder genuine users don't want to respond.

prinzeugen · 26-02-2019 12:18am

Bluefoam wrote: »

What if it is not capable of propelling you without physical effort? That's where the lack of clarity seems to be. For instance the Xiaomi requires you to push or the motor will not engage.

If the electric motor can propel you without physical effort by you AT ANY POINT it is a MPV.

The method of starting or control does not matter. Those cycles with chainsaw engines are the same. Having to pedal to get going does not make them legal.

RayCun · 26-02-2019 8:00am

The last mile thing is not just being pedantic though. There are a lot of people who have a walk of up to a mile at either end of their commute. There are far fewer people who have a walk of two to three miles to get to public transport or from public transport to work.

Cookie_Monster · 26-02-2019 8:49am

The ridiculous insurance laws in Ireland need to be overhauled before any of these gadgets can actually be successful. Until the law catches up with evolving tech and changes to embrace it rather than marginalise and penalise it no major developments can happen.

magicbastarder · 26-02-2019 9:45am

the thing about those little scooters is that they fall into a weird zone between pedestrian and motor vehicle - i don't think i'd like to commute on one on the road, as the wheels seem too small to deal with the 'discontinuities' of the road surface; but they're too fast to use on urban footpaths.
i see one or two occasionally on griffith avenue (my commute does not take me into the city centre), but that has recently been resurfaced along a decent stretch, and is nice and wide - and has wide footpaths. which led me to wonder is that why i'm seeing them there.

BeerNut · 26-02-2019 9:54am

Bluefoam wrote: »

What if it is not capable of propelling you without physical effort? That's where the lack of clarity seems to be. For instance the Xiaomi requires you to push or the motor will not engage.

I'm finding it really hard to imagine the experience here. If the motor only runs when your foot is touching the ground, it's going to suddenly accelerate away from you, isn't it? When you've done your push and lifted your foot for the next one, legally the motor has to cut out, right?

punisher5112 · 26-02-2019 10:04am

I see so many now and think it's a great concept and it's something Dublin and other towns need to get on top of the amount travelling by cars.

If ridden properly and Safe I have no issues with them as each one you see including cyclists is another car off the road.

I see more with fold up bikes too and electric ones around.

Buses, trams and trains are full and I think as this is happening more and rush hour is even now 3 hours or more that people are getting fed up and are actually much quicker biking or scooting.

I believe everyone for their own sake should get personal insurance but this would need to be affordable of course.

I can see what the French companies have done supplying e scooters as a very good idea just like the Dublin bikes which is another thing where maybe they should be looking at supplying e bikes.... At a slightly higher price per hour etc.

Widen out the scheme to the likes of UCD or further and similar around the city.

punisher5112 · 26-02-2019 10:11am

BeerNut wrote: »

I'm finding it really hard to imagine the experience here. If the motor only runs when your foot is touching the ground, it's going to suddenly accelerate away from you, isn't it? When you've done your push and lifted your foot for the next one, legally the motor has to cut out, right?

I have yet to see one that you must have to keep putting your foot down to push, only when starting off on 1st push then its power all the way until you stop.

cruizer101 · 26-02-2019 10:47am

Its amazing how pedantic some people are about the distance of the last mile.
Even if it is only a mile thats what a 15-20 min walk, if thats added to a 45 min bus or train journey its enough to make you want to consider other options, even if you are only saving 10 min in the morning and in the evening. It would potentially encourage some people out of their cars and onto public transport.

There is actually a number of scooter-sharing schemes in other countries, similar to Dublin bikes, be great if law and insurance could be sorted here to allow for it, though I'd say its unlikely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter-sharing_system#List_of_scooter-sharing_system_operators

Pussyhands · 26-02-2019 2:11pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

maybe it's not them being pedantic, but you being unclear. suggesting walking is the most brutally obvious response when someone mentions 'the last mile' twice in their opening post, that i'm amazed you didn't expect or anticipate it, and clarify that without assuming the responses were disingenuous.
it's not their fault you actually meant 'the last *two* miles'.

Oh come off it ffs.

Does everything have to be spelled out like you're a 5 year old?

It's obvious when he refers to 'the last mile' that it means the first and last leg of journey to public transport, of which you would be giving up car usage.

I'm not gonna walk 20 minutes and be all sweaty to a get a bus but I might think about getting the bus if I only had to go 5 minutes on a scooter.

Wait, let's take everything literally!!! If you should use your feet for the last mile, what about if I only need to walk 500 yards? What should I use for that journey???

RayCun · 26-02-2019 2:14pm

A 15 minute walk twice a day would do most people no harm.

Pussyhands · 26-02-2019 2:16pm

On the scooters themselves, the only reservation I'd have is the height off the ground the platform is. Any considerable change in height of the surface could have you in trouble.

Bluefoam · 26-02-2019 2:23pm

RayCun wrote: »

A 15 minute walk twice a day would do most people no harm.

Are you stuck in a loop? Maybe go easy on the gels.

AssaultedPeanut · 26-02-2019 2:28pm

RayCun wrote: »

A 15 minute walk twice a day would do most people no harm.

True. But we're talking about ways to get from A to B to C other than walking. It's kinda the entire point of the post.

RayCun · 26-02-2019 2:37pm

AssaultedPeanut wrote: »

True. But we're talking about ways to get from A to B to C other than walking. It's kinda the entire point of the post.

But there are two possibilities, either

Your journey is very short, about a mile, maybe less, in which case why not just use your feet?
or
Your journey is longer, 2, 3 miles, maybe more. In which case you aren't really talking about a toy so the questions about legality become harder to brush off.

Pussyhands · 26-02-2019 2:43pm

RayCun wrote: »

But there are two possibilities, either

Your journey is very short, about a mile, maybe less, in which case why not just use your feet?
or
Your journey is longer, 2, 3 miles, maybe more. In which case you aren't really talking about a toy so the questions about legality become harder to brush off.

Because maybe you don't want to walk and would prefer to get to and from work in the quickest time possible

RayCun · 26-02-2019 2:46pm

Pussyhands wrote: »

Because maybe you don't want to walk and would prefer to get to and from work in the quickest time possible

as I said

RayCun wrote: »

A 15 minute walk twice a day would do most people no harm.

Bluefoam · 26-02-2019 2:56pm

RayCun wrote: »

as I said

Does it make you feel superior to bleet on about how people should walk... and how they would benefit from it? Is it because you are a runner and feel superior? Do you think everyone should be like you? Are you compensating for other areas of your life? Relationship troubles? Theres obviously something profoundly wrong with you if you cant get beyond the idea of walking as transport.

This thread isn't about options for getting to the bus, it is specifically asking about scooters and experience with scooters.

You obvuously have nothing worthwhile to add except 'walk'. I suggest you concentrate on the deficiencies in your own life & let others get on with theirs.

lol, walk on

RayCun · 26-02-2019 3:10pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Does it make you feel superior to bleet on about how people should walk... and how they would benefit from it? Is it because you are a runner and feel superior? Do you think everyone should be like you? Are you compensating for other areas of your life? Relationship troubles? Theres obviously something profoundly wrong with you if you cant get beyond the idea of walking as transport.

gosh, you jumped very quickly to the idea of relationship troubles there. Something you want to talk about?

The thread - read the title - is about how to complete the last mile of the journey.

There are very few places in Dublin city centre that are not within a mile of a LUAS stop or a bus stop, so walking is the obvious solution.

There is another thread, as has been pointed out, about electric scooters etc.

cruizer101 · 26-02-2019 3:14pm

RayCun wrote: »

as I said

Take me as an example.
I have 15 min from house to train station then 50 min train journey and 10 min walk the other end, thats not too bad but company had considered moving offices so would be 20 min ish walk the other end. That would push me towards 3 hours commute a day. If I was in that situation I would be looking to shorten it a bit and a scooter would suit very well.
Re people needing walk I take the dogs for a walk twice a day anyway at home so don't really need anymore walking.

Bluefoam · 26-02-2019 3:18pm

RayCun wrote: »

gosh, you jumped very quickly to the idea of relationship troubles there. Something you want to talk about?

The thread - read the title - is about how to complete the last mile of the journey.

There are very few places in Dublin city centre that are not within a mile of a LUAS stop or a bus stop, so walking is the obvious solution.

There is another thread, as has been pointed out, about electric scooters etc.

I started the thread & it is specifically about:

I'm facinated by the idea of last mile transport... stuff that allows you to get public transport and make it easy for you to get to and from that... skateboards, onewheels, folding bikes etc.

... see, I discribe it in detail. The term 'last mile transport' is a catch all for transport technologies and is accepted to go beyond one mile... I know because I wrote the first post and know what my intent was. I also go to great lengths in the thread to clarify. You have successfully derailed the thread & made your point.

Just to clarify, last mile transportation did not originate to mean the literal last mile.... It is a term derived from the IT sector in providing digital solutions, it has now been adopted tpo refer to the final portion of a journey. please read the article linked. https://medium.com/the-stigo-blog/the-last-mile-the-term-the-problem-and-the-odd-solutions-28b6969d5af8

Your assumption is wrong!

RayCun wrote: »

The thread - read the title - is about how to complete the last mile of the journey.

RayCun · 26-02-2019 3:23pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

it has now been adopted to refer to the final portion of a journey.

the final portion of a journey doesn't need to be on a vehicle to be the final portion.
Most of Dublin city centre is within a mile of a LUAS stop.

RayCun · 26-02-2019 3:26pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

please read the article linked. https://medium.com/the-stigo-blog/the-last-mile-the-term-the-problem-and-the-odd-solutions-28b6969d5af8

That blog, incidentally, is by an electric scooter manufacturer.

Bluefoam · 26-02-2019 3:32pm

I aplogise for feeding the troll... I'm out.

BTW, through this thread I have been directected to another site where the topic is being discussed rationally. All good, I have found the information I was looking for. Thanks for the helpful replies.

cruizer101 · 26-02-2019 3:38pm

RayCun wrote: »

the final portion of a journey doesn't need to be on a vehicle to be the final portion.
Most of Dublin city centre is within a mile of a LUAS stop.

Doesn't need to be fair enough but the point of the thread was to discuss options other than walking.
Everyone already knows you can walk it but that doesn't mean it is the only option that everyone should have to do.

Captain Flaps · 26-02-2019 3:46pm

Came for a discussion about a neat gadget I'm considering buying. Stayed for all the people falling all over themselves to get upset about somebody looking to cut a few minutes off their commute.

RayCun · 26-02-2019 3:46pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Doesn't need to be fair enough but the point of the thread was to discuss options other than walking.
Everyone already knows you can walk it but that doesn't mean it is the only option that everyone should have to do.

I think a lot of people looking at these devices are actually looking at them for distances where walking would not be practical. But that depends on closing your eyes to the fact that they aren't legal.

Pussyhands · 26-02-2019 4:07pm

RayCun wrote: »

gosh, you jumped very quickly to the idea of relationship troubles there. Something you want to talk about?

The thread - read the title - is about how to complete the last mile of the journey.

There are very few places in Dublin city centre that are not within a mile of a LUAS stop or a bus stop, so walking is the obvious solution.

There is another thread, as has been pointed out, about electric scooters etc.

Since when is any question asked just asked about Dublin City? God forbid someone lives outside the city...

RayCun · 26-02-2019 4:15pm

Pussyhands wrote: »

Since when is any question asked just asked about Dublin City? God forbid someone lives outside the city...

God forbid...

Same set of questions really
If someone was using a different mode of transport but is now completing the last leg of their journey, is that last leg less than a mile? If yes, why not walk it?

beauf · 26-02-2019 4:36pm

Last mile...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_mile_(transportation)

beauf · 26-02-2019 4:40pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I have yet to see one that you must have to keep putting your foot down to push....

There's a couple. One that comes to mind is this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QvtcLe4vGc
https://www.cyclebike.ie/falcon-x3-electric-scooter.html

Its actually a lot lighter than the other ones. Which is its main selling point.

Its closer to the spirit of the legislation for Pedelecs than those other ones.

There was another that did the same but you had to weave your body not put your foot down. I can't remember what that one was.

The Last Mile

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