Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

downcow wrote: »

I know it’s a very difficult circle to square but we have no hope until we recognise eaches sensitivities

The Brexit border problems has nothing whatsoever to do with people passing internal borders within the CTA.

It has only and everything to do with goods, standards, rules and regulation of goods. And in case of a 'no deal' Brexit tariffs and very significant tariffs for food.

Lars

reslfj wrote: »

The Brexit border problems has nothing whatsoever to do with people passing internal borders within the CTA.

It has only and everything to do with goods, standards, rules and regulation of goods. And in case of a 'no deal' Brexit tariffs and very significant tariffs for food.

Lars

Its interesting. We are not part of schengen but we are part of the EU, and we will have people using ireland, to get into the UK via northern ireland? that does seem fairly inevitable does it not?

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not willy nilly.

New EU entrants need to sign up to
https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis_en

So Schengen and the Euro. And signing up to ERM and Charter of Fundamental Rights and Area of freedom, security and justice. Things the UK have opt-outs for now.

Any one of those is a major RED LINE. So humble pie would have to be eaten if Brexit goes pear shaped and the EU goes "what did you think would happen ?"


Also potentially citizens barred from working in some EU countries for up to seven years like the A8 Countries if Brexit is worse than predicted.

Yes they would be in a different position to that which they are in now - the opt outs wouldnt be there and they would, from the POV of Brexiteers, have no emergency break, as negotiated by Cameron - and yes they might have to be in the Euro Zone

Its possible the EU would back down on some of the considerations- but by no means would they get back to exactly where they are now or the renegotiated position Cameron got

It really is astonishing to me that more people are not backing a second vote - or that people who voted to leave are not outraged by the fact that the Campaigners had

• No idea how to leave, and how difficult it would be
• lied about the 350million a week, NHS, Turkey, Common trade etc etc

FrancieBrady wrote: »

One of the principals here - Arlene Foster, has called that an 'existential problem' for Unionism...i.e. it only exists in your head, it is NOT a physical thing and it has been stated by the highest law official you have got, that it does NOT affect the constitutional position of NI.

Exactly the point I am making. Gfa does not mention the border but I feel it is in the spirit of it that no additional borders are established between NI & roi and NI & Scotland. Whereas I think many on here want to ignore the later as if it’s irelevant. Some sensible negotiations could at least attempt to square the circle but one party is refusing to negotiate at the moment.

The GFA is built on the foundation of both parts of Ireland being in a common structure i.e. both being in the CU & SM. Remove the foundation and guess what happens

The treaty text does not specifically state the obvious and in hindsight it should have as the UK hass been very sly and underhand

It is either ignorance or plain deception when some Brit nationalist comes out with the 'a hard border is not mentioned in the GFA therfore we can do what the fcuk we want' line

UsedToWait wrote: »

downcow, if you do indeed, as you have often professed, speak for the majority of unionists in Nothern Ireland, we're going to need to have a long debate in this country as to what format our politics will take after the inevitable (and if IS just a matter of time and demographics) Border Poll and the endi of colonialism on this island.

You have no interest in engaging in good faith.
No interest in learning from the numerous knowledgeable and well-informed posters in this thread, and evolving your thinking.
No interest in moving an inch from your blood red lines.

I really think you're just here to wind up some taigs, for your own amusement.

Here’s a big part of the problem. You first sentence above. I have endlessly said that I do not represent anyone and indeed reflect the opinions of a small minority of unionists. Shown by fact I voted yes to gfa and most voted no.

I have tried to be very careful and you will note over last pages I agree with some who are most opposed to my presence here when I feel that is justified.

It is difficult to discuss brexit without NI being discussed. Believe me I wish, and have argued here, that gfa and NI are being overly used to force UK to stay

liamtech wrote: »

Its interesting. We are not part of schengen but we are part of the EU, and we will have people using ireland, to get into the UK via northern ireland? that does seem fairly inevitable does it not?

The CTA is a kind of Schengen for the RoI and the UK. The outer border is at ports and airports in both countries - Dublin and London. The CTA is supposed to have identical rules for entry and stay in both countries *

As a non Irish EU citizen you will be allowed into the CTA for 90 days just by showing your passport - be it in Dublin or London.
This is the current UK governments policy for the CTA/UK and is agreed with the government in RoI.
This has been the situation for many years and it just set to continue.

Note: The UK has agreements with - I think - around 150 countries about visa free or visa upon arrival (a stamp in the passport and some £) short time entry into the CTA/UK. These rules are vital for UK citizens getting rights to and enjoying ease of travel in this world.

The EU concept of FoM for people has nothing to do with travel across EU border and has indeed noting to do with Schengen.

EU's FoM for people is about being allowed to move your permanent address and working in all EU countries. (or be rich/pensioner with own health insurance).

For people with papers/passports (within EU an official ID card too) you can't control if these people enter as e.g. tourists, but start on a job the day after. This will not be legal after Brexit, but it cannot be controlled at the border. Control of illegal stay and/or work requires registration and control with employers, tax authorities, landlords and maybe even by the police.

"Take back control of our border" is nothing more than a empty propaganda slogan. There has always been control at the CTA/UK/IE borders and there are pasport/National_ID control when entering the Schengen area from the CTA/UK/IE area.

So explain to me why I should travel from EU26 via Dublin and not directly to London if I wanted to enter the UK ?

Lars


* The has been and maybe still are some minor differences in entry rules between UK and RoI e.g. for visa or visa free entry - like for some small pacific island states. It was agreed 6-8 years ago, such discrepancies should be removed. Schengen rules are somewhat more streamlined

This is an interesting read. I had been bombarded with posters saying, go do your homework, nonsense, etc when I mentioned that I would have access to Eu healthcare etc. Posters spoke with very convincing confidence leading to me giving way to their greater knowledge.
You might need to read this wee article if you think it is all sorted. And how could we have a second referendum when nobody knows what they would be voting for? (where did I hear that before)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47292347

reslfj wrote: »

The CTA is a kind of Schengen for the RoI and the UK. The outer border is at ports and airports in both countries - Dublin and London. The CTA is supposed to have identical rules for entry and stay in both countries *

As a non Irish EU citizen you will be allowed into the CTA for 90 days just by showing your passport - be it in Dublin or London.
This is the current UK governments policy for the CTA/UK and is agreed with the government in RoI.
This has been the situation for many years and it just set to continue.

Note: The UK has agreements with - I think - around 150 countries about visa free or visa upon arrival (a stamp in the passport and some £) short time entry into the CTA/UK. These rules are vital for UK citizens getting rights to and enjoying ease of travel in this world.

The EU concept of FoM for people has nothing to do with travel across EU border and has indeed noting to do with Schengen.

EU's FoM for people is about being allowed to move your permanent address and working in all EU countries. (or be rich/pensioner with own health insurance).

For people with papers/passports (within EU an official ID card too) you can't control if these people enter as e.g. tourists, but start on a job the day after. This will not be legal after Brexit, but it cannot be controlled at the border. Control of illegal stay and/or work requires registration and control with employers, tax authorities, landlords and maybe even by the police.

"Take back control of our border" is nothing more than a empty propaganda slogan. There has always been control at the CTA/UK/IE borders and there are pasport/National_ID control when entering the Schengen area from the CTA/UK/IE area.

So explain to me why I should travel from EU26 via Dublin and not directly to London if I wanted to enter the UK ?

Lars


* The has been and maybe still are some minor differences in entry rules between UK and RoI e.g. for visa or visa free entry - like for some small pacific island states. It was agreed 6-8 years ago, such discrepancies should be removed. Schengen rules are somewhat more streamlined

Well simply, you would do so via dublin if you wished to legally enter the Republic of Ireland, and illegally enter the UK via northern ireland

It is actually a problem that could become a reality - Britain may replace legal immigration with illegal immigration

You show your passport at dublin airport - in you come - jump on a train to northern ireland - jump on a ferry - and hey presto you are in the UK - If you enter the UK directly, you will be noted as having 90 days

downcow wrote:

This is an interesting read. I had been bombarded with posters saying, go do your homework, nonsense, etc when I mentioned that I would have access to Eu healthcare etc.

You were asked to do your homework after you said your entitlement to an Irish passport came from the GFA.

liamtech wrote: »

You show your passport at dublin airport - in you come - jump on a train to northern ireland - jump on a ferry - and hey presto you are in the UK - If you enter the UK directly, you will be noted as having 90 days

The CTA makes that irrelevant - your entry date into Ireland will show up on the UK system and vice versa. You might as well just fly directly to a UK airport of your choice and stay there.

downcow wrote: »

It is difficult to discuss brexit without NI being discussed. Believe me I wish, and have argued here, that gfa and NI are being overly used to force UK to stay

To me this is a massive misconception on the part of hard brexiteers.

From the very outset of Brexit the EU/Roi stated that their preferred option is an Irish Sea border. In terms of natural common sense most would agree. In terms of the general population of Uk mainland most would agree cause they couldn’t give a toss about NI deep down.
UK/DUP won’t agree to that and insist on the ridiculous unnatural, haphazard,meandering ,unwanted , hated land border with the customs union.

Canada style free trade with border down the Irish Sea it would be agreed in the morning but for one party.

liamtech wrote: »

Its interesting. We are not part of schengen but we are part of the EU, and we will have people using ireland, to get into the UK via northern ireland? that does seem fairly inevitable does it not?

As far as know, and I know it for sure, fro the last 15-18 years the current of illegal immigrants has been going in the opposite direction, from UK to Ireland via NI. Why do you think that anyone will have desire to go to post brexit UK? It's very much possible that after Brexit we will experience flood of illegals and asylum seekers from UK.