IFA and Factory Bitching thread.

wrangler · 08-12-2018 11:56PM

Muckit wrote: »

Ya oul turncoat!! Aren't you a westmeath man??!!

It'd take the full website to put up all the counties that we have suppliers,
Just shows you though it started as a early lamb group selling 26000 lambs, it takes the whole year to get 26000 lambs now

Bass Reeves · 09-12-2018 12:19AM

wrangler wrote: »

I actually meant what his proposals on how to obtain it, We know what everyone wants.
His proposal on producer group is aspirational for a country where price fixing is illegal.
The coordinator in an all Ireland producer group wouldn't be a mth in the job before he'd be accused of being in someones pocket. Better left with a nice local commitee

Again you are incorrect. I have explained this numerous time to you but you keep coming back with this incorrect interpretation of producer groups. Producer groups were proposed by the EU commission to counter the scale in balance between farmers, processors and retailers. EU law supercedes Irish Law as the department of Justice found out again last week in the Graham Dwyer case. Therefore Irish competition law would not come into play. But Irish legislation has to be enacted to allow them. There is no price fixing as there would be 3-4 large producer groups just like there are 3-4 large processors.

What could not happen is what happens where selected feedlot's get access to contracts and forward pricing. Producer groups would negotiate these contracts and allow all members access. What would happen is that on for example Monday morning contracts for cattle to be delivered for a particular factory or group might be issued for the 2nd week in January with a base price quote. Farmers could then decide to take up the price or not.

However contracts for forward supply maybe form mid March or even for May/June could also be available. When these contracts filled the new contract could be at a lower or higher price. And yes there would still be winners and losers but it would stop some of the market manipulation and in time force up beef prices. As well if a producer group set up a premium brand they would have more control over it. Not like the AA and HE brands which were hijacked by the processor after being set up by breeder's groups.

It is interesting as well to see it was the EU Competition Authority that put manners on the Irish Insurance industry with it raids this year after we were told for years that there was nothing to see there. IMO it may only be a matter of time before we see the EU Competition Authority again carry out actions in Ireland as the can see how ineffective the Irish one is

wrangler · 09-12-2018 01:01AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Again you are incorrect. I have explained this numerous time to you but you keep coming back with this incorrect interpretation of producer groups. Producer groups were proposed by the EU commission to counter the scale in balance between farmers, processors and retailers. EU law supercedes Irish Law as the department of Justice found out again last week in the Graham Dwyer case. Therefore Irish competition law would not come into play. But Irish legislation has to be enacted to allow them. There is no price fixing as there would be 3-4 large producer groups just like there are 3-4 large processors.

What could not happen is what happens where selected feedlot's get access to contracts and forward pricing. Producer groups would negotiate these contracts and allow all members access. What would happen is that on for example Monday morning contracts for cattle to be delivered for a particular factory or group might be issued for the 2nd week in January with a base price quote. Farmers could then decide to take up the price or not.

However contracts for forward supply maybe form mid March or even for May/June could also be available. When these contracts filled the new contract could be at a lower or higher price. And yes there would still be winners and losers but it would stop some of the market manipulation and in time force up beef prices. As well if a producer group set up a premium brand they would have more control over it. Not like the AA and HE brands which were hijacked by the processor after being set up by breeder's groups.

It is interesting as well to see it was the EU Competition Authority that put manners on the Irish Insurance industry with it raids this year after we were told for years that there was nothing to see there. IMO it may only be a matter of time before we see the EU Competition Authority again carry out actions in Ireland as the can see how ineffective the Irish one is

Comp auth is too effective, hint is in the name Consumer Protection.
As far as I know the IFA brought the factories to the attention of the EU, if it's not true it's not my lie.
That producer group plan won't work, Hard to see how you can get extra for consistant inspec quality when they're lumped in with the rest of the countries stock. bad stock from our group gets a warning.
Even the BPM has referred to groups like ours lately. That EU idea is little better than whats going on at the moment, I'm sure factories would give a quote for next march today if you wanted it but it'd be poor.They'd include a much bigger margin for error than if they were quoting on the first of march, they'd have to.
Doesn't matter who is put in charge of selling cattle for us, they'll be sh..e and in the factories pocket within weeks according to the'' barstool experts'', It can't work.
And no, I'm not against producer groups and I'm in IFA

Bass Reeves · 09-12-2018 01:08PM

wrangler wrote: »

Comp auth is too effective, hint is in the name Consumer Protection.
As far as I know the IFA brought the factories to the attention of the EU, if it's not true it's not my lie.
That producer group plan won't work, Hard to see how you can get extra for consistant inspec quality when they're lumped in with the rest of the countries stock. bad stock from our group gets a warning.
Even the BPM has referred to groups like ours lately. That EU idea is little better than whats going on at the moment, I'm sure factories would give a quote for next march today if you wanted it but it'd be poor.They'd include a much bigger margin for error than if they were quoting on the first of march, they'd have to.
Doesn't matter who is put in charge of selling cattle for us, they'll be sh..e and in the factories pocket within weeks according to the'' barstool experts'', It can't work.
And no, I'm not against producer groups and I'm in IFA

Again your assumptions are incorrect. The processors control the trade because through there agents, access to the AIM and through feedlots they control the trade. With producer groups as a go between processors would no longer have access to the information coming from agents. You assumption that processors would give sh!te quotes for supply in 10-12 weeks time.

There are certain times of year supply is tight. Processors use Feedlot contracted cattle to control supply at this time of year. To access feedlot cattle processors would have to forward price cattle but these prices would be available to all farmers not a select few feedlots. As well if supply is better than expected they use these cattle to force down prices across the sector. As forward pricing crept in it would become the norm and lads could make business decision's on this information. For instance take the situation at present where processors are backing up young bulls if these were contracted in they would have to be taken rather than used as a tool to force down general beef prices

In the USA processors cannot own, operate or control feedlots. Yes it is a different market but at present using hormones there beef price is only 7c/kg behind ours. As for you constant harping on about the Competition Authority being effective you are totally incorrect. It is incapable of doing it job as shown by the Topaz debacle about 10 years ago and other than frying a few small fish like the IFA it has failed completely in Ireland. As I pointed out it was the EU CA that took on the Irish Insurance Industry after out own CA had the attitude of ''nothing to see here''.

wrangler · 09-12-2018 01:26PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Again your assumptions are incorrect. The processors control the trade because through there agents, access to the AIM and through feedlots they control the trade. With producer groups as a go between processors would no longer have access to the information coming from agents. You assumption that processors would give sh!te quotes for supply in 10-12 weeks time.

There are certain times of year supply is tight. Processors use Feedlot contracted cattle to control supply at this time of year. To access feedlot cattle processors would have to forward price cattle but these prices would be available to all farmers not a select few feedlots. As well if supply is better than expected they use these cattle to force down prices across the sector. As forward pricing crept in it would become the norm and lads could make business decision's on this information. For instance take the situation at present where processors are backing up young bulls if these were contracted in they would have to be taken rather than used as a tool to force down general beef prices

In the USA processors cannot own, operate or control feedlots. Yes it is a different market but at present using hormones there beef price is only 7c/kg behind ours. As for you constant harping on about the Competition Authority being effective you are totally incorrect. It is incapable of doing it job as shown by the Topaz debacle about 10 years ago and other than frying a few small fish like the IFA it has failed completely in Ireland. As I pointed out it was the EU CA that took on the Irish Insurance Industry after out own CA had the attitude of ''nothing to see here''.

Don't know if they're effective or not, but they're effective against farmers.
so as far as I'm concerned they're too effective. It's like the inland revenue..ie Public service screwing private enterprise
At least France and spain have factory feedlots according to this discussion on Facebook so must be alright in EU.

Base price · 20-02-2019 12:10AM

Grading machines found to be working outside the rules of their operation - as if we didn't already know :rolleyes:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/21-beef-grading-machines-shut-down-after-unannounced-inspections/

wrangler · 20-02-2019 01:27AM

Base price wrote: »

Grading machines found to be working outside the rules of their operation - as if we didn't already know :rolleyes:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/21-beef-grading-machines-shut-down-after-unannounced-inspections/

Public service again, There'll be no accountability and no one will lose their job

Base price · 20-02-2019 09:46AM

wrangler wrote: »

Public service again, There'll be no accountability and no one will lose their job

Were the factories penalised and the farmers compensated. There is no indication from the article.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 10:56AM

Base price wrote: »

Were the factories penalised and the farmers compensated. There is no indication from the article.

Did they even report it to anyone until now. I can't understand how people tolerate the carry on of the public service, they are destroying this country.
I see that Britain are going to replace Irish beef with brazilian after Brexit,
John walsh from ICM said last night that if brexit happens they physically can't get enough ferry space to Europe for their fridges from Rosslare to Europe, they're trying to Block book them now, apparently even if there was twice as many ferries there'd still be queues back to Tullamore

Willfarman · 20-02-2019 11:12AM

There should be recourse to having carcasses independly regraded when a farmer is being fleeced. This was a major blunder when the ifa done this deal with the processors with no mandate.

The blank refusal by the ifa and ifj to acknowledge the figures that proved the greater tonnage of beef (dairy x) is being cheapened because their cash cow is the suckler variety.
The penny hasn’t dropped that cheapening the greater tonnage cheapens all beef.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 11:24AM

Willfarman wrote: »

There should be recourse to having carcasses independly regraded when a farmer is being fleeced. This was a major blunder when the ifa done this deal with the processors with no mandate.

The blank refusal by the ifa and ifj to acknowledge the figures that proved the greater tonnage of beef (dairy x) is being cheapened because their cash cow is the suckler variety.
The penny hasn’t dropped that cheapening the greater tonnage cheapens all beef.

Do you not think that based on Meat yield that dairy cross is too dear compared to continentals.

Don't really understand your post any way,

alps · 20-02-2019 11:28AM

Base price wrote: »

Grading machines found to be working outside the rules of their operation - as if we didn't already know :rolleyes:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/21-beef-grading-machines-shut-down-after-unannounced-inspections/

Would be interesting if any of the machines were faulty in the farmers favour...

theaceofspies · 20-02-2019 08:52PM

The first casualty of Brexit will be the IFA.
The saddles of gold redundancy packages are already being prepared.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 09:08PM

theaceofspies wrote: »

The first casualty of Brexit will be the IFA.
The saddles of gold redundancy packages are already being prepared.

Feck, I left too early.
I see BPM got the usual attendence at a beef farmer protest,
The more things change the more they stay the same eh

TalkingBull · 20-02-2019 09:24PM

Base price wrote: »

Grading machines found to be working outside the rules of their operation - as if we didn't already know :rolleyes:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/21-beef-grading-machines-shut-down-after-unannounced-inspections/

-"found to be working outside of the allowed tolerance", how much outside of allowed tolerances...5% 10%???
and how many head of cattle passed through said machines?

theaceofspies · 20-02-2019 09:32PM

wrangler wrote: »

Feck, I left too early.
I see BPM got the usual attendence at a beef farmer protest,
The more things change the more they stay the same eh

Wrangler, you might have 'left' the IFA, but the IFA never left you.

Willfarman · 20-02-2019 10:41PM

wrangler wrote: »

Do you not think that based on Meat yield that dairy cross is too dear compared to continentals.

Don't really understand your post any way,

I most certainly don’t believe that at all. It’s a drum that the ifa beats to keep the coffers full of coins from the suckler producers but it isn’t the case. The British supermarket trade is the most important and highest priced for the processors and dairy cross angus and Hereford cattle fit the specs better than any other.

Having had square dairy cross and even suckler bred qa Hereford and angus cattle fall through the trap doors of o- grade and 4+ Resulting in cow Price and then the only recourse open to me is being trying to plead with a belligerent procurement manager for the 28 cent a kg loss (6 cent from o= + 12cent qa + 10 cent breed bonus) margin on the animal.
The slight of hand on the o= to o- is blatant robbery on a massive scale due to the volume of cattle involved every day.
We need an appeals process.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 11:11PM

Willfarman wrote: »

I most certainly don’t believe that at all. It’s a drum that the ifa beats to keep the coffers full of coins from the suckler producers but it isn’t the case. The British supermarket trade is the most important and highest priced for the processors and dairy cross angus and Hereford cattle fit the specs better than any other.

Having had square dairy cross and even suckler bred qa Hereford and angus cattle fall through the trap doors of o- grade and 4+ Resulting in cow Price and then the only recourse open to me is being trying to plead with a belligerent procurement manager for the 28 cent a kg loss (6 cent from o= + 12cent qa + 10 cent breed bonus) margin on the animal.
The slight of hand on the o= to o- is blatant robbery on a massive scale due to the volume of cattle involved every day.
We need an appeals process.

And what are you going to do if they don't want to give an appeals process......., withdraw supplies,
Time to call a spade a spade here, Farmers won't do what the nurses did.
Stand up for themselves, whimpering and blaming joe healy isn't going to cut it.
No point in saying I want I want and not prepared to back it up,
I'm sick of telling that there's no support.
It is as it is, even BPM is able to do nothing

coolshannagh28 · 20-02-2019 11:15PM

wrangler wrote: »

And what are you going to do if they don't want to give an appeals process......., withdraw supplies,
Time to call a spade a spade here, Farmers won't do what the nurses did.
Stand up for themselves, whimpering and blaming joe healy isn't going to cut it.
No point in saying I want I want and not prepared to back it up,
I'm sick of telling that there's no support.
It is as it is, even BPM is able to do nothing

Is Liam Doran at a loose end these days ?

wrangler · 20-02-2019 11:25PM

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Is Liam Doran at a loose end these days ?

It was the beligerance of the nurses delivered that result fair dues to them, anyone could've led them

Willfarman · 20-02-2019 11:58PM

wrangler wrote: »

And what are you going to do if they don't want to give an appeals process......., withdraw supplies,
Time to call a spade a spade here, Farmers won't do what the nurses did.
Stand up for themselves, whimpering and blaming joe healy isn't going to cut it.
No point in saying I want I want and not prepared to back it up,
I'm sick of telling that there's no support.
It is as it is, even BPM is able to do nothing

Joe Healy no. Michael Doran and Justin McCarthy were the trumpeters of the grid and the factory owned unregulated grading machines 10 years ago. Doran milks now jersey cows while Justin milks suckler farmers egos.

wrangler · 21-02-2019 12:10AM

Willfarman wrote: »

Joe Healy no. Michael Doran and Justin McCarthy were the trumpeters of the grid and the factory owned unregulated grading machines 10 years ago. Doran milks now jersey cows while Justin milks suckler farmers egos.

You play the cards you're dealt
There was some fair whingeing about the department graders too at the time, It was going on when I was on livestock. Must be another one of those ''now we want them, now we don't want them'' things..... I lost patience with them fairly quick anyway, instead of six years I did ten months

Bass Reeves · 21-02-2019 09:47AM

wrangler wrote: »

And what are you going to do if they don't want to give an appeals process......., withdraw supplies,
Time to call a spade a spade here, Farmers won't do what the nurses did.
Stand up for themselves, whimpering and blaming joe healy isn't going to cut it.
No point in saying I want I want and not prepared to back it up,
I'm sick of telling that there's no support.
It is as it is, even BPM is able to do nothing

You always harp on about it but withdrawing supplies is not really an option. A nurse, a garda, a factory workers goes on strike there is extra work to be completed when they come back. Factory blockades and chaining supermarket trolly's are only photo opportunities. When farmers blockade a factory its back up cattle and processors can then use these to drop the price again.

The issue with grading machines is a disgrace in that the lads who advocated the system failed to put regulation and standardization in place. They also failed to see the way the beef market was going. When a sirloin or striploin from an R- and O- sit on a tray the weighting machine charges the same/kg. When you see what went on 12 months ago by IFA and the FJ with there save the sucker campaign where some were advocating increasing grid differentials and Cormac Healy was lapping it up it easy to see who understands the beef market. If these idiots got there was the UK supermarket beef would cheaper for the processors to buy.

What is need is producer groups and that the NSAI weight and measures takes over the checking and standardization of the machines. Standing outside a factory for a photo opportunity for Healy or McCorley is only stroking there ego's

charolais0153 · 21-02-2019 10:08AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You always harp on about it but withdrawing supplies is not really an option. A nurse, a garda, a factory workers goes on strike there is extra work to be completed when they come back. Factory blockades and chaining supermarket trolly's are only photo opportunities. When farmers blockade a factory its back up cattle and processors can then use these to drop the price again.

The issue with grading machines is a disgrace in that the lads who advocated the system failed to put regulation and standardization in place. They also failed to see the way the beef market was going. When a sirloin or striploin from an R- and O- sit on a tray the weighting machine charges the same/kg. When you see what went on 12 months ago by IFA and the FJ with there save the sucker campaign where some were advocating increasing grid differentials and Cormac Healy was lapping it up it easy to see who understands the beef market. If these idiots got there was the UK supermarket beef would cheaper for the processors to buy.

What is need is producer groups and that the NSAI weight and measures takes over the checking and standardization of the machines. Standing outside a factory for a photo opportunity for Healy or McCorley is only stroking there ego's

How do producer groups work?

wrangler · 21-02-2019 10:48AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You always harp on about it but withdrawing supplies is not really an option. A nurse, a garda, a factory workers goes on strike there is extra work to be completed when they come back. Factory blockades and chaining supermarket trolly's are only photo opportunities. When farmers blockade a factory its back up cattle and processors can then use these to drop the price again.

The issue with grading machines is a disgrace in that the lads who advocated the system failed to put regulation and standardization in place. They also failed to see the way the beef market was going. When a sirloin or striploin from an R- and O- sit on a tray the weighting machine charges the same/kg. When you see what went on 12 months ago by IFA and the FJ with there save the sucker campaign where some were advocating increasing grid differentials and Cormac Healy was lapping it up it easy to see who understands the beef market. If these idiots got there was the UK supermarket beef would cheaper for the processors to buy.

What is need is producer groups and that the NSAI weight and measures takes over the checking and standardization of the machines. Standing outside a factory for a photo opportunity for Healy or McCorley is only stroking there ego's

I'm just making the point that there is no way to force the hand of the processors, again I revert back to our road deal and windturbine deal where farmers got off their butt and took action and got huge changes made to the deal. Gas line deal was good too, Both the road deal and gasline deal could have been just CPO'd and no more about it.
IFA always had the option of trying to increase the differentials in grades as there was good scientific reasons for it but because most of the beef is poorer grades and as dairy farmers work harder in the organisation it would never have been pushed. It'd devalue two thirds of the beef sold or maybe more as some a lot of 'beef' cattle are poorer quality too.
As you say lobbying and protest is a waste of time as regards processors but there'd be some whin complaining if we didn't do it and equally as much if we did and equally some complaining if we didn't get it highlighted in the press, Why do you think I'd walk away from it when it'd start

wrangler · 21-02-2019 11:17AM

charolais0153 wrote: »

How do producer groups work?

It's just a group getting together with say 10000 cattle between them and seeing who'll be interested, you need commitment from farmers !!!!!!!
They can't go off willy nilly somewhere else if there's a better price and it takes a while to build a repertoire so the first while can be shaky.
If there's a scarcity there will be better prices so that tests it,
Sometimes a good agent is as effective if he's independent

whelan2 · 21-02-2019 11:50AM

Was anyone listening to the Sean o rourke show?

wrangler · 21-02-2019 01:02PM

whelan2 wrote: »

Was anyone listening to the Sean o rourke show?

Yea, I thought the MII explained it fairly well, Sean O Rourke reckoned the residencies row was irrelevant in the whole scheme of things at the moment.
IFA getting criticised for sitting in on a meeting about QA and BPM on the radio this morning pleading with Creed to be allowed be included in a meeting, It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious

Bass Reeves · 21-02-2019 10:56PM

charolais0153 wrote: »

How do producer groups work?

At present there is an imbalance between farmers and processors. I think about 70% of the kill is controlled by 3 processing groups. To counter balance this the EU in 2016 allowed individuals countries to introduce legislation regarding producer marketing groups (PMG). This would allow for the bypassing of the Competition Authority. The Government went as far as proposing that there would be a minimum of 3 producer groups and the minimum number of farmers in a group would be 5000 farmers. All farmers would have to join one of these PMG. IFA opposed it and looked for minimum number to be in the low hundreds.

In general if the original proposals had being followed through processors would no longer employ agents coming to your yard they would be employed by the PMG's. All pricing would be transparent and available to all farmers. However IFA's proposal neutered the original concept. If there existed a select group the processors could used this group as they use there controlled feedlots to control the price of beef at times of shortage. Processors would have to deal with PMG's as there would be no other way to access cattle. However they would not have access to market intelligence that agents provide at present. As well they would be unable to see from CMS where in the system cattle were. In the medium to long term PMG's would lead to forward pricing as processors compete for stock when numbers would be tight.

wrangler wrote: »

It's just a group getting together with say 10000 cattle between them and seeing who'll be interested, you need commitment from farmers !!!!!!!
They can't go off willy nilly somewhere else if there's a better price and it takes a while to build a repertoire so the first while can be shaky.
If there's a scarcity there will be better prices so that tests it,
Sometimes a good agent is as effective if he's independent

If it was an exam you would get an F

wrangler · 21-02-2019 11:12PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

At present there is an imbalance between farmers and processors. I think about 70% of the kill is controlled by 3 processing groups. To counter balance this the EU in 2016 allowed individuals countries to introduce legislation regarding producer marketing groups (PMG). This would allow for the bypassing of the Competition Authority. The Government went as far as proposing that there would be a minimum of 3 producer groups and the minimum number of farmers in a group would be 5000 farmers. All farmers would have to join one of these PMG. IFA opposed it and looked for minimum number to be in the low hundreds.

In general if the original proposals had being followed through processors would no longer employ agents coming to your yard they would be employed by the PMG's. All pricing would be transparent and available to all farmers. However IFA's proposal neutered the original concept. If there existed a select group the processors could used this group as they use there controlled feedlots to control the price of beef at times of shortage. Processors would have to deal with PMG's as there would be no other way to access cattle. However they would not have access to market intelligence that agents provide at present. As well they would be unable to see from CMS where in the system cattle were. In the medium to long term PMG's would lead to forward pricing as processors compete for stock when numbers would be tight.

And then your mother would wake you for breakfast
And the processors would tell you where to stuff your producer groups, I know I would.
The PMG would then be accused of taking brown envelopes from all over to let some farmers jump the queue at times of glut like we have at the moment.
Sounding familiar aren't I

IFA and Factory Bitching thread.

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