IFA and Factory Bitching thread.

duffysfarm

Why are the ifa willing to take on the vulture funds when the beef factories are taking advantage of the bad weather and screwing farmers black and blue for so long now. Nobody seems to be saying anything about this. I mean a certain beef Barron has sheds and sheds full of cattle. If supply gets scarce he has his own supply rather than have to pay more to the market. Also a poor price in the factories means stores are cheaper which he also buys which feeds into the problem so again it suits him here to keep beef prices down!



This thread has been split from the Vulture Fund Selling Farm thread. OP provided by duffysfarm but titled by Greysides.
Enjoy.

mahoney_j

duffysfarm wrote: »

Why are the ifa willing to take on the vulture funds when the beef factories are taking advantage of the bad weather and screwing farmers black and blue for so long now. Nobody seems to be saying anything about this. I mean a certain beef Barron has sheds and sheds full of cattle. If supply gets scarce he has his own supply rather than have to pay more to the market. Also a poor price in the factories means stores are cheaper which he also buys which feeds into the problem so again it suits him here to keep beef prices down!

Off topic but your right there afraid of there ****e to upset Larry

wrangler

mahoney_j wrote: »

Off topic but your right there afraid of there ****e to upset Larry

If beef was €3 this week farmers would still be sending them in, I cant't believe he's still offering 3.80

duffysfarm

And if the price dropped from 3.90 to 3.00 would it drop in price in the butchers and supermarkets also? I think not

wrangler wrote: »

If beef was €3 this week farmers would still be sending them in, I cant't believe he's still offering 3.80

wrangler

mahoney_j wrote: »

Off topic but your right there afraid of there ****e to upset Larry

Be interesting to see your reaction if IFA asked farmers to withdraw supplies because that is the only solution.....whinge on if you like .
bravado like yours is very shallow
Very easy to stop them buying cheap...don't sell

Bass Reeves

wrangler wrote: »

If beef was €3 this week farmers would still be sending them in, I cant't believe he's still offering 3.80

If processors drop it much below present prices live export come on line even to the UK. Lad above in Louth is again advertizing for Fr bullocks for export. At 3/KG we be sending them live to North Africa and shooting most calves at birth.

duffysfarm

Would be very interesting indeed.......
Only asked a question, no need to take it so personal princess!

wrangler wrote: »

Be interesting to see your reaction if IFA asked farmers to withdraw supplies because that is the only solution.....whinge on if you like .
bravado like yours is very shallow
Very easy to stop them buying cheap...don't sell

whelan2

wrangler wrote: »

If beef was €3 this week farmers would still be sending them in, I cant't believe he's still offering 3.80

I was in a lorry with a factory agent the other day. He said you would not believe the amount of lads who let the cheque they get from the factory go out of date. Whinging over price on the day and haggling over a couple of cent and then not cashing the cheque. The mind boggles

wrangler

duffysfarm wrote: »

Would be very interesting indeed.......
Only asked a question, no need to take it so personal princess!

I've put too much time into representing farmers to be told I'm afraid of my s...e of anyone......... thankless job.

In 2001 when IFA disbanded to stop the fines,'' bravado'' beef farmers whinged about being ''exposed'' to fines at the factory gates... as I say no backbone and as you say afraid of their s...e

54and56

duffysfarm wrote: »

Why are the ifa willing to take on the vulture funds when the beef factories are taking advantage of the bad weather and screwing farmers black and blue for so long now. Nobody seems to be saying anything about this. I mean a certain beef Barron has sheds and sheds full of cattle. If supply gets scarce he has his own supply rather than have to pay more to the market. Also a poor price in the factories means stores are cheaper which he also buys which feeds into the problem so again it suits him here to keep beef prices down!

Three things on this:-

1. Why should a certain beef baron (or anyone else in business) pay more for their raw material than suppliers of raw material are willing to sell for????

2. When running any business it is bad policy to allow yourself to become overly dependent on one source of supply, to do so leaves you at risk of unwelcome price increases so if the certain beef baron is mitigating this risk by maintaining an independent source of supply he can tap when prices are above what he is prepared to pay that is nothing more than good business management / risk mitigation.

3. I can never understand why farmers, who in the past had grouped together in co-op's, don't develop their own beef factories in order to reduce their own reliance on selling to a certain beef baron!!!

charolais0153

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Three things on this:-

1. Why should a certain beef baron (or anyone else in business) pay more for their raw material than suppliers of raw material are willing to sell for????

2. When running any business it is bad policy to allow yourself to become overly dependent on one source of supply, to do so leaves you at risk of unwelcome price increases so if the certain beef baron is mitigating this risk by maintaining an independent source of supply he can tap when prices are above what he is prepared to pay that is nothing more than good business management / risk mitigation.

3. I can never understand why farmers, who in the past had grouped together in co-op's, don't develop their own beef factories in order to reduce their own reliance on selling to a certain beef baron!!!

1. He shouldn't
2. Yes
3. Greed

whelan2

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Three things on this:-







3. I can never understand why farmers, who in the past had grouped together in co-op's, don't develop their own beef factories in order to reduce their own reliance on selling to a certain beef baron!!!

Then we'd have nothing to give out about

wrangler

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Three things on this:-

1. Why should a certain beef baron (or anyone else in business) pay more for their raw material than suppliers of raw material are willing to sell for????

2. When running any business it is bad policy to allow yourself to become overly dependent on one source of supply, to do so leaves you at risk of unwelcome price increases so if the certain beef baron is mitigating this risk by maintaining an independent source of supply he can tap when prices are above what he is prepared to pay that is nothing more than good business management / risk mitigation.

3. I can never understand why farmers, who in the past had grouped together in co-op's, don't develop their own beef factories in order to reduce their own reliance on selling to a certain beef baron!!!

Great questions, been trying to point out some of your points to others here for a long time

coolshannagh28

Larry is having it both ways ; dropping the beef price like a stone and snapping up cheap land from vulture funds.

whelan2

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Larry is having it both ways ; dropping the beef price like a stone and snapping up cheap land from vulture funds.

He never bought that land in fairness

coolshannagh28

whelan2 wrote: »

He never bought that land in fairness

He has a heart after all !

whelan2

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

He has a heart after all !

Just setting the record straight. I'm not standing up for him

54and56

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Larry is having it both ways ; dropping the beef price like a stone and snapping up cheap land from vulture funds.

No one party, unless there is a monopoly in place, can manipulate the price.

As I understand it Larry publishes the price at which he is prepared to buy beef on a daily (or regular basis) and farmers, having looked at all options available to them (not sell at that time or sell to someone else) choose whether or not they wish to sell to Larry at the price he is prepared to pay.

If he gets enough farmers to sell to him at that price why would he offer to pay more?

54and56

whelan2 wrote: »

He never bought that land in fairness

Sounds like a smart move. Let others (farmers) tie up huge capital in infrastructure producing a commodity product with traditionally slim margins whilst he concentrates on buying the commodity at the lowest price possible, processes it to add value and makes a decent profit.

I REALLY REALLY don't understand why farmers don't set up their own meat factories so they can keep more of the value add profit themselves.

mahoney_j

wrangler wrote: »

Be interesting to see your reaction if IFA asked farmers to withdraw supplies because that is the only solution.....whinge on if you like .
bravado like yours is very shallow
Very easy to stop them buying cheap...don't sell

Cool the jets I agree with u on withdrawing supplies be it beef or milk,few days with no milk or beef would be the only language manufactures will understand but farmers are too smart for there own good and this won’t happen .on the ifa been all over the vulture fund case and hiding away from the factories I stand over it ,it’s a fight deep down they don’t want

Turnipman

goat2 wrote: »

“Our debt support team has looked at this case in detail, we have sought professional advice and we are firmly of the view that this farmer has put a very credible proposal to make structured repayments.”

Martin Stapleton said farm families should be given time to repay their debts over a longer term to keep the farm intact and IFA is standing behind farmers who are committed to implementing a credible solution.

In which case there's absolutely nothing to stop the IFA from paying off the debt from its substantial reserves and taking over the lads' loan.

Seeing as the IFA's "professional advisers" have advised that there's a credible proposal on the table, then it's a complete no-brainer!

So c'mo IFA, quit the posturing and put your money where your mouth is.

tanko

Turnipman wrote: »

In which case there's absolutely nothing to stop the IFA from paying off the debt from its substantial reserves and taking over the lads' loan.

Seeing as the IFA's "professional advisers" have advised that there's a credible proposal on the table, then it's a complete no-brainer!

So c'mo IFA, quit the posturing and put your money where your mouth is.

Excellent point, but this will never happen. The IFA aka the Irish Factories Association is only interested in one thing which is lining their own pockets with the €13 million which irish farmers are stupidly giving them every year and having a good time with it.

The salaries and pensions in the IFA are so obscene and embarrasing that they wont even publish them.

If the lads in this case wont pay back the money they borrowed then the land should be taken off them.
But of course both they and the useless sh*tes in the IFA think that someone else should pick up the bill.

K.G.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Sounds like a smart move. Let others (farmers) tie up huge capital in infrastructure producing a commodity product with traditionally slim margins whilst he concentrates on buying the commodity at the lowest price possible, processes it to add value and makes a decent profit.

I REALLY REALLY don't understand why farmers don't set up their own meat factories so they can keep more of the value add profit themselves.

Because margins in yhe beef game are small ironically enough.its just that larry has by hook or by crook put himself in a dominatant postion in this country.you have to understand that the majority of beef farming is a lifestyle choice rather than an business decision

54and56

K.G. wrote: »

Because margins in yhe beef game are small ironically enough.its just that larry has by hook or by crook put himself in a dominatant postion in this country.you have to understand that the majority of beef farming is a lifestyle choice rather than an business decision

That's fine and in fact admirable if it's what you genuinely want to do with your life but if it's your chosen lifestyle why moan about it? No one is forcing you to spend your life at it unless you are such a weakling that you are unable to say to Mammy and Daddy that you want more out of the one life you have than to merely "keep the farm going", how miserable a future that must be for a young person in their 20's to be looking forward to???

Also, if it's a lifestyle choice not a commercial business why try to play by and complain about the rules of the commercial game e.g.:-

1. That the price you can sell your product for is less than you'd like. - Either do something about it (individually by changing the product you produce or collectively by setting up a co-op type meat processing factory) or stop complaining because after all you're not running it as a business.

2. That the price of land is too high or you borrowed too much to buy land and now can't pay it back. - It literally took me 3 minutes to work out you shouldn't pay more than €1,500 an acre if you're producing €200 a year in profit (available cashflow) per annum with which to make loan repayments and you want to avoid getting into financial distress. Just because your neighbours are prepared to make reckless financial decisions doesn't mean you have to follow them, especially if you've chosen to run a lifestyle business.

charolais0153

K.G. wrote: »

Because margins in yhe beef game are small ironically enough.its just that larry has by hook or by crook put himself in a dominatant postion in this country.you have to understand that the majority of beef farming is a lifestyle choice rather than an business decision

Didnt he get bailed out by the govt. Bit like the banks?

K.G.

charolais0153 wrote: »

Didnt he get bailed out by the govt. Bit like the banks?

As the phrasr goes by hook or by crook.but even at that stage he was in a strong position.

Calfscour

wrangler wrote: »

Great questions, been trying to point out some of your points to others here for a long time

He just explained it in a much much better way.

older by the day

Don't be worrying yourself lads, farming is a business and a cut throat one at that. Don't be expecting IF A to help you, they don't have that much power, if the processors a are getting cattle at a price why should they pay more. I stood outside the factory gate blockades the last time. The factory were told before hand and filled up with cattle. They knew when it was to finish and the lorry were waiting at the gate. STUPID. The only hope is that scarcity will drive prices up sometime. It won't be this year. Draw your BPS and Gloss and keep your numbers and costs low

White Clover

K.G. wrote: »

As the phrasr goes by hook or by crook.but even at that stage he was in a strong position.

Was it Charlie or Albert that put him going again?

wrangler

mahoney_j wrote: »

Cool the jets I agree with u on withdrawing supplies be it beef or milk,few days with no milk or beef would be the only language manufactures will understand but farmers are too smart for there own good and this won’t happen .on the ifa been all over the vulture fund case and hiding away from the factories I stand over it ,it’s a fight deep down they don’t want

IFA have always had guys to help with negotiations , nothing new there, I've used them myself and referred people to them.
I never wanted to be bothered by beef price either but it wasn't because i was afraid of anything apart from maybe farmer apathy. It's a waste of time, why bother, it's a dead end.
While people think that TDs get up every day wondering how much money we'll give the farmers to day we won't need representation..
Meanwhile I struggle here on a tax free income......a concession that the TDs must have given me without being asked that;s subsidised by a generous CPO land deal that the same TDS must have said we deserved and then santa claus delivered a nursing home fair deal scheme for rich land owning farmers.
All this must be true because if you believe you guys, sure begorrah, IFA are doing nothing
I can tell you I'm laughing all the way to the bank

wrangler

older by the day wrote: »

Don't be worrying yourself lads, farming is a business and a cut throat one at that. Don't be expecting IF A to help you, they don't have that much power, if the processors a are getting cattle at a price why should they pay more. I stood outside the factory gate blockades the last time. The factory were told before hand and filled up with cattle. They knew when it was to finish and the lorry were waiting at the gate. STUPID. The only hope is that scarcity will drive prices up sometime. It won't be this year. Draw your BPS and Gloss and keep your numbers and costs low

It must have been the saddest protest ever, I worked at it but never supported it, was delighted when national exec overruled the livestock commitee and called it off.....if there was support for it it wouldn't have been stopped that easy, if you pulled the county and national officers out of it it would've failed of it's own accord

Grueller

White Clover wrote: »

Was it Charlie or Albert that put him going again?

Did you even have to ask. Charlie of course.

Who2

I’m I the only one here thinking this is more political and we’re giving Larry too much flak on this one. He’s in the business of buying and processing meat, he would be an absolute clown to pay more than he has to. The price across the world for beef and nearly any farm produce is being kept low. We can say it’s being made up with subs but the truth is that it isn’t. The retailers have the arse pulled out of it in regards to profit, they are going to have a fair share of waste as farm produce is mainly perishable, but they seem to have the main chunk. But is it any more of a profit margin than other industries such as a clothes shop or hardware store that needs to keep operating profitably. We are so far down the ladder that nobody gives a monkeys, we have no real voice and realistically there is going to be nothing done until we all stop producing and at that stage there is going to be a lack of will amongst the many but there will be a few who will push on. At that stage Larry will probably have bought up most of the ground more of a necessity to secure supply than just greed.

wrangler

Who2 wrote: »

I’m I the only one here thinking this is more political and we’re giving Larry too much flak on this one. He’s in the business of buying and processing meat, he would be an absolute clown to pay more than he has to. The price across the world for beef and nearly any farm produce is being kept low. We can say it’s being made up with subs but the truth is that it isn’t. The retailers have the arse pulled out of it in regards to profit, they are going to have a fair share of waste as farm produce is mainly perishable, but they seem to have the main chunk. But is it any more of a profit margin than other industries such as a clothes shop or hardware store that needs to keep operating profitably. We are so far down the ladder that nobody gives a monkeys, we have no real voice and realistically there is going to be nothing done until we all stop producing and at that stage there is going to be a lack of will amongst the many but there will be a few who will push on. At that stage Larry will probably have bought up most of the ground more of a necessity to secure supply than just greed.

Young people were never in as good a position to get away from farming, even the ones farming have third level education, I referred earlier to a wedding I was at last weekend, all professionals and if you saw and heard the lifestyle of the young people there you'd see the gap between farming and reality.
Thankfully the lack of young farmers available is reflecting the move away from farming

_Brian

Cattle are cheap because lads are way over producing.
Cut each farm production by 20-30%, prices would lift and lads would have profits from stock.

Continuing to oversupply makes beef cheap.

Beef needs a rethink, real markets are dwindling and so we need to produce less stock or it will just get cheaper and cheaper.

Who2

_Brian wrote: »

Cattle are cheap because lads are way over producing.
Cut each farm production by 20-30%, prices would lift and lads would have profits from stock.

Continuing to oversupply makes beef cheap.

Beef needs a rethink, real markets are dwindling and so we need to produce less stock or it will just get cheaper and cheaper.

It’s not that simple. 20% cut here can easily be filled from some other country. A week with no food and all the revs and restrictions would soon disappear. If we got a 5% increase in a 20% cut in numbers we’d be doing well, and even at that beef production isn’t going to provide a decent return.

mahoney_j

_Brian wrote: »

Cattle are cheap because lads are way over producing.
Cut each farm production by 20-30%, prices would lift and lads would have profits from stock.

Continuing to oversupply makes beef cheap.

Beef needs a rethink, real markets are dwindling and so we need to produce less stock or it will just get cheaper and cheaper.

I only see the beef industry going one way ,one giant big cartel controlled by one man .its starting already ,factory feedlots ,these are getting more common with farmers been offered set figure for sheds ,extra if silage if included .farmer feeds ainmals etc I don’t like the idea but it’s about the only way I see beef men been able to secure a set margin or income from beef

wrangler

mahoney_j wrote: »

I only see the beef industry going one way ,one giant big cartel controlled by one man .its starting already ,factory feedlots ,these are getting more common with farmers been offered set figure for sheds ,extra if silage if included .farmer feeds ainmals etc I don’t like the idea but it’s about the only way I see beef men been able to secure a set margin or income from beef

Same as any industry, it has to move with the times, survival of the fittest.
Next CAP reform will be interesting

Say my name

Or go the Welsh route and fight to hold every independent abattoir and butchers shop and get government support for same.
https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/2018/05/16/UK-abattoirs-at-risk


It's too late for that here since "we've moved with the times" but that's what's currently happening over there now especially since Larry is pushing in there now too.
The Irish have this mentality that bigger is better. Probably comes from the dept only wanting a few factories to inspect and not multiple small ones.
Or maybe we've an inferiority complex to prove to the world, anyway it's a shortcoming.

Sheep breeder

Say my name wrote: »

Or go the Welsh route and fight to hold every independent abattoir and butchers shop and get government support for same.
https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/2018/05/16/UK-abattoirs-at-risk


It's too late for that here since "we've moved with the times" but that's what's currently happening over there now especially since Larry is pushing in there now too.
The Irish have this mentality that bigger is better. Probably comes from the dept only wanting a few factories to inspect and not multiple small ones.
Or maybe we've an inferiority complex to prove to the world, anyway it's a shortcoming.

A lot of the local small abattoirs were closed by the local authorities vets who made it so hard to comply, in our locality 5 were closed by the council vet and stopped a little industry for local farmers who supplied them with stock, now the stock goes to the next county to be slaughtered and lorry back to the local butcher.

54and56

Say my name wrote: »

The Irish have this mentality that bigger is better.

If your strategy is to export then being "competitive" is key and that means being cost competitive which in turn means economies of scale and big factories etc.

IIRC we produce way more than we could ever consume domestically so we have to export which means we have to be competitive. That doesn't mean there isn't room for some farmers to club together to produce a higher cost but higher quality product, locally butchered etc for local consumption.

greysides

Part of the problem with the local abattoirs was the disposal of SRM (waste material) which was expensive, that and complying with other new hygiene regulations. All these regs were brought in with the intention of having food safer to eat.

54and56

Sheep breeder wrote: »

A lot of the local small abattoirs were closed by the local authorities vets who made it so hard to comply

Why couldn't they comply with the standards? Was it too expensive or didn't they have the ability to comply?

Is it possible they used the inspections as an excuse to close what were inefficient operations anyway?

freedominacup

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Why couldn't they comply with the standards? Was it too expensive or didn't they have the ability to comply?

Is it possible they used the inspections as an excuse to close what were inefficient operations anyway?

If by "they" you mean the dept and by "inefficient operations " you mean not controlled by the right people then yes.

Sheep breeder

greysides wrote: »

Part of the problem with the local abattoirs was the disposal of SRM (waste material) which was expensive, that and complying with other new hygiene regulations. All these regs were brought in with the intention of having food safer to eat.

They were all dealing with SRM the same as the big Factory, the regs were the problem and how they were being inforced by the local authority vet, one example was the shooting box for sheep and cattle and line need to be 3 foot more apart and would result in the building needing to have one side knocked out and rebuilt. The cattle were killed one day and the next day the sheep were done and never on the same day. The small local man was killing top quality and the hygiene was second to none as he was selling local and that was in his interest to do it right or go out of business.

Sheep breeder

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Why couldn't they comply with the standards? Was it too expensive or didn't they have the ability to comply?

Is it possible they used the inspections as an excuse to close what were inefficient operations anyway?

Inefficient no, it was making the over heads to high and cheaper to buy from the likes of uncle Larry and the big factory, the amount of work that was created in the local community for part time farmers who worked as butchers and the suppliers who were local. We used to only travel 6miles with lambs and no travel 40 miles, another big loss was getting your own animal slaughtered for the freezer has died and was a big tradition.

Upstream

greysides wrote: »

Part of the problem with the local abattoirs was the disposal of SRM (waste material) which was expensive, that and complying with other new hygiene regulations. All these regs were brought in with the intention of having food safer to eat.

Just wondering, what happened to the SRM in the days before it was ground up and fed to animals as meat and bone meal?

kk.man

I see supervalue offers for this week..Hereford steak @ 15e per kg and mince @ 10 per kg. These are 'offers'.
We selling beef at sub 3.80 next week. Something seriously broken and no IFA action.

alps

kk.man wrote: »

I see supervalue offers for this week..Hereford steak @ 15e per kg and mince @ 10 per kg. These are 'offers'.
We selling beef at sub 3.80 next week. Something seriously broken and no IFA action.

https://shop.supervalu.ie/shopping/meat-poultry/c-150100015

Mince is at €5/kg.....not much in the value chain there..

Your competitor just may be other meats...pork, chicken etc...While they consistently sell for €5 per kg, are you confident that the consumers has the willingness or the pocket to give you what you require?

Can I ask, how much do you require to make a satisfactory margin, and do you think there exists a route to market that could capture that margin for all of the meat from all of our animals?

kk.man

alps wrote: »

kk.man wrote: »

I see supervalue offers for this week..Hereford steak @ 15e per kg and mince @ 10 per kg. These are 'offers'.
We selling beef at sub 3.80 next week. Something seriously broken and no IFA action.

https://shop.supervalu.ie/shopping/meat-poultry/c-150100015

Mince is at €5/kg.....not much in the value chain there..

Your competitor just may be other meats...pork, chicken etc...While they consistently sell for €5 per kg, are you confident that the consumers has the willingness or the pocket to give you what you require?

Can I ask, how much do you require to make a satisfactory margin, and do you think there exists a route to market that could capture that margin for all of the meat from all of our animals?

I think it reads 5euro for 500gms..thus 10euro. They have stopped the price per kg on the adds.

When it comes to fresh meat supermarkets do not do a lost leader!

Never wrestle with pigs

In oz it's law that everything is labelled with a price per kg. All ways thought that was good and very clear.