Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

Spear · 15-02-2019 3:31am #1

Well, still no progress on the main series arc, but I'm okay with this since it wraps up two previous threads.

It bugged me that everyone seems to know all about section 31, something that really doesn't square with the already established appearances of them.

I'm far more interested in the next episode, even though that still doesn't advance the main story arc either.

liamtech · 15-02-2019 10:41am

Spear wrote: »

Well, still no progress on the main series arc, but I'm okay with this since it wraps up two previous threads.

It bugged me that everyone seems to know all about section 31, something that really doesn't square with the already established appearances of them.

I'm far more interested in the next episode, even though that still doesn't advance the main story arc either.

Yea again i have to agree - im a pro Star Trek Discovery fan, but this episode and last weeks, i just find these ones tedious so far - last weeks was ok, but i just couldnt enjoy this weeks one - i also find the reappearance of the doctor, to be very contrived

A weak episode overall

Primary complaints are:

Not engaged by the Tilly plot, maybe im alone but i dont like her as much as most. and i really hope thats it for now
section 31 is FAR FAR too well known - its casually discussed among officers - so there is a question of canon here for me. Im perfectly happy to discuss other canon issues - klingon, holograms, the ship, technology etc - but having section 31 as well known as it is, would be comparable to introducing the Romulans, and having it common knowledge that they are an offshoot of the vulcans
The doctor survived, recreated - yea i just didnt like it - i was hoping they would back track right at the end on this one
The Spore network eats ships? really?

I am pro discovery but i am also dissapointed with the last few weeks - and i think there is a genuine danger of cancellation now - If travelers can be cancelled despite its recent season being AMAZING, then Disco is highly vulnerable - they need to advance the plot ASAP - even if you like stand alone stories i dont see how you could enjoy this episode

Sonics2k · 15-02-2019 1:36pm

Not a bad episode. I'm actually enjoying the non-main story line approach. I felt Season 1 was far too focused on the overwhelming arch, rather than the more Star Trek-y stuff.

Pike is really growing on me.

Cons though

Burnhams bloody monologues at the start and end are getting tedious
What's the point in killing a character off, only to have them return? Same can be said about Saru last episode.
Why oh why is their tech so much more advanced? Holograms everywhere, even for communication just seems like showing off their CG.
Seriously, why the hell does -everyone- know about Section 31?

Rawr · 15-02-2019 5:08pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Burnhams bloody monologues at the start and end are getting tedious

What's the point in killing a character off, only to have them return? Same can be said about Saru last episode.

Why oh why is their tech so much more advanced? Holograms everywhere, even for communication just seems like showing off their CG.

Seriously, why the hell does -everyone- know about Section 31?

+1 this list, especially point one.

I'm not sure what they are doing. I'm getting a "Grey's Anatomy" vibe from this were they flogged that particular narrative device to death for a decade.

Also I hate to harp on about Burnham, but either due to direction, writing or the acting displayed, most of the scenes involving her just come off as odd or disconnected. She always appears to have this constant appearance of shock, with a few brief moments of humanity with Tilly. They really need to dial back on the Micheal I feel.

What I liked about this episode:
-The "Sinking Ship" plot device. Was kind of clever.
-The Tacheon Clue. I am interested to see where that goes...
-The S31 Comm Badge. A fun reference to a TNG era Comm Badge.

What I didn't like:
-The S31 Comm Badge. WHY?! A Super Secret Spy Club should not advertise dammit!! Their uniform should be that of "the man on the street" etc....

-Ignoring the "Sinking Ship" pot device to have extended debates..multiple times. The pacing of this rescue mission was an absolute mess, giving time for lengthly chats while ship is ripping itself apart around them. Urgency is both there and not there at the same time?!!

-The resurrection of Dr Boyfriend seemed very Disney.

-The "Michael is sad because Tilly is in danger" opening. I could see what they were trying to do, but it was executed horribly. Could we please see less of this "Michael's Diary" approach to Discovery. I'm not a fan.

corkie · 15-02-2019 5:24pm

More discovery style of Trek this week.

S31 will probably get retcon'ed, probably after doing somethings so bad, it becomes taboo to discuss it, and the organization goes underground. Like in DS9!

TheValeyard · 15-02-2019 7:14pm

I liked it. Although they still havent got the pacing right yet.

What I liked....

The whole half ship in half ship out thinge.

Mix of faith and science

Mix of old and new Trek

Section 31 was interesting, seem to have very advanced tech

Pike as Csptain

Spore Dimension

Things I didnt like....

Pacing, felt rushed from scene to scene

To much Michael, not enough of other crew

Resurrection of the Doctor. Felt he was a very bland, meh character. Maybe they can do more with him.

No Tardigrades

flazio · 15-02-2019 8:16pm

So, if Burnham was restored to rank Commander, how come she still has to share quarters with Tilly?
And does this mean the definitive end to the Spore drive?

Slydice · 15-02-2019 8:51pm

Thought that was really good. Didn't realise how much Lt. Stamets being down had on the show until the relief of him being reunited.

Goodshape · 15-02-2019 8:54pm

That was decent. Could have been tightened up a fair bit but overall a good episode. They seem to have found a good format and a good mix between story-arc and weekly Trek adventure (whether or not you think it's a good Trek adventure), I hope they stick with it.

Definitely need less Burham, or at least less of those monologues. What is her actual position on the ship anyway? Would be nice just to have an episode or two focused on someone else.

Section 31 / Starfleet black-ops isn't my favourite idea by a long shot but they were fine in this episode I suppose. Although the black leather uniforms and "I'M BLACK-OPS!!" badges are a bit dumb.

Was getting annoyed by all the lengthy heart-felt conversations going on while the 3-minutes-to-death timer was ticking away.

Looking forward to seeing Culber again. Also want to get back to Saru and see how he's getting on without his ganglia.

And find Spock I guess.

OldMrBrennan83 · 15-02-2019 8:59pm

That was my favourite of the series so far. Lots of setups too.

pixelburp · 15-02-2019 11:13pm

I liked it, but despite the presence of Section 31, and Ash in particular.

Watching this reminded me that I really, realllly don't care for this character anymore, and bringing him back is one of the worse byproducts of serialised TV. He existed purely as a walking Mystery Box, and that mystery is done, played out. The emotional arc with Burnham was ... just, ehhhh, I mean it was nothing really. Generic TV "angst-romance" and I'm not keen to watch the fallout from that either.

Hey CBS, nobody cares about Burnham-Ash.

As for the canon stuff, I actually don't mind the suggestion Section 31 had the new toys before the rest of Starfleet, and the idea that they are a more public, known quantity does throw a grenade into what was a pretty hefty arc on DS9. We shall see if there's any attempt to push them back into the shadows.

Still, what was good was enjoyable, and was another decent 'ship in peril' story. Tilly & May were sweet (though that was blasted through too quickly). And I quite liked Stammets & Culber, they made for a sweet couple what little we saw of them, and a bit more empathy is no bad thing; hope they don't give Culber too many emotional scars.

.
.
Ash is back though.

ERRRGHHHHH...

AMKC · 16-02-2019 12:30am

It was an ok episode. Some parts I liked and some I did not.

I don't mind Micheal or Tilly at all.

I find Stamets boring do.

Do not like Ash or the fact that he is back.

Do not like how they are dragging the Spock story and his introduction out.

I do think the badge for Section 31 is stupid and the fact that they are casually spoken about is silly too. Both Enterprise and DS9 done it better.

[Deleted User] · 16-02-2019 1:31am

pixelburp wrote: »

Still, what was good was enjoyable, and was another decent 'ship in peril' story. Tilly & May were sweet (though that was blasted through too quickly). And I quite liked Stammets & Culber, they made for a sweet couple what little we saw of them, and a bit more empathy is no bad thing; hope they don't give Culber too many emotional scars.

I absolutely love their portrayal as a couple, none of the gay sterotype/cliche/trope that is usually just lazily thrown at the screen. Just two people in love. Nice and normal like, as it should be.

In terms of the monologue, they are far too speech like but nothing different to Captain's/First Officer's/Science Officer's log Stardate: XXX which is all over Trek. They just need to make them less "profound" and more matter of fact.

Tilly was much less in your face this episode and much more relatable again.
Liked how Empress was able to complain about this universe Michael's Vulcan stoic nature. Hoping that starts to get broken down.
Michael did not do the solving this episode, which was cool. Also Saru was the brains in the Translator issue previously.
Section 31 is far too well known. The whole thing was that Starfleet Security was the well know entity, shifting focus from the real black ops unit. Even if it never made sense that they were THAT well unknown. There should have been rumours at least.

Michael is just the science officer now yeah?

filters · 16-02-2019 9:10am

Its getting worse, it'd writing is atrocious.
There is no one at the wheel, its only following twitter hash tags for story lines.
Last season they killed of the gay black doctor, they got backlash from online SJW's, so they bring him back with a stupid story.
If im honest the best thing for that show would have been for Tilly, Michale, and Stamets to have died in the mushroom network, then we could have got a real Star Trek with Pike as the main character , but alas the SJW backlash on Twitter would have been too much for the spineless producers to take, so STD continues to die a slow death.

Sonics2k · 16-02-2019 9:29am

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of the monologue, they are far too speech like but nothing different to Captain's/First Officer's/Science Officer's log Stardate: XXX which is all over Trek. They just need to make them less "profound" and more matter of fact.

This is what stands out to me too. Most episodes of Trek opened up with monologue, but it was a Captains Log. Brief, to the point of the ongoing situation. If anything it was quite often a quick bit of exposition, an intro to what's going on and what alien race the crew is meeting.

With Discovery, it's more of a direct monologue, designed and said purely to trigger emotion and made to make you think 'deep thoughts'.

I wasn't actually a fan of Tilly in the first season, just way too clumsy and 'dopey' for a Starfleet officer, but she seems to be the one character who's actually been developed.

filters · 16-02-2019 9:34am

Sonics2k wrote: »

I wasn't actually a fan of Tilly in the first season, just way too clumsy and 'dopey' for a Starfleet officer, but she seems to be the one character who's actually been developed.

The writers should get the credit for doing the impossible , they made a character more annoying that Wesley Crusher, Tilly is woeful, worst character ever in Star Trek.

Tristram · 16-02-2019 10:52am

Enjoyed that. Looking forward to next week's!

Johnny Storm · 16-02-2019 11:14am

I really enjoyed this one, probably my favourite ep of Discovery so far (although my expectations were low). Even Tilly is starting to grow on me!

Having said that:
- the pacing was all wrong after the away team found Culver. Discovery is about be dissolved, another ship is about to explode in 3 minutes or less and they still have time for a relaxed, philosophical conversation - it kind of threw me out of the moment
- I am sick of playing "Where's Spock" - just bring him on - and it had better be good after all this pointless build-up.
- Star ships have "safe places" now? What ??!?!?!?

j8wk2feszrnpao · 16-02-2019 12:15pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

What's the point in killing a character off, only to have them return?

Spock died but returned.

Overall season 2 is far better and more enjoyable. Hope the trend continues (like it did with other series).

pixelburp · 16-02-2019 12:23pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

This is what stands out to me too. Most episodes of Trek opened up with monologue, but it was a Captains Log. Brief, to the point of the ongoing situation. If anything it was quite often a quick bit of exposition, an intro to what's going on and what alien race the crew is meeting.

With Discovery, it's more of a direct monologue, designed and said purely to trigger emotion and made to make you think 'deep thoughts'.

I wasn't actually a fan of Tilly in the first season, just way too clumsy and 'dopey' for a Starfleet officer, but she seems to be the one character who's actually been developed.

To be fair to Discovery, this is a broader scourge across a lot of modern serialised TV, especially those with pretension towards a loftier outlook: the monologue.

It's a lazy evolution against the show-dont-tell mantra, where characters speak their thoughts, wrapped up with some analogous philosophical twaddle that manages to be both deep and superficial at the same time. It rarely works and for me just makes the character speaking sound like a bit of a knob.

They're hacky and disingenuous; but I guess either studios or writers reaching for prestige love adding them. for me, the worst one of those I'd ever heard was Daredevil season 2, it was so bad I was laughing out loud.

Spear · 16-02-2019 2:55pm

Johnny Storm wrote: »

- Star ships have "safe places" now? What ??!?!?!?

Just like our current space ships have. E.g. aboard the ISS some of the labs have heavier shielding and are designated as shelters in case of events such as coronal mass ejections.

CastorTroy · 16-02-2019 4:23pm

I actually thought the admiral was killed last season for some reason. Or was she jusy captured? Bad memory

alchemist33 · 16-02-2019 4:56pm

Ash had the perfect farewell when he waljed off into the sunset with Klingon lady. He's not adding anything.

And even though I had no issue with Stamets/Hugh, bringing him back feels very contrived.

And I couldn't care less about Section 31. Maybe its because I never saw any DS9 after they apoeared but the feel like an ipcoming spinoff just now, and I hate spinoffs messing with my shows.

That said, as soon as they get back into the red angel story I feel it'll get stronger.

FutureGuy · 16-02-2019 5:00pm

I really enjoyed the episode. I thought Culber was done for when they finally managed to get him to the point of return only for his arm to dissolve. Nice turn.

That won’t be the last we will see May and her species.

I’m really excited for a S31 show now. Great nod to the future with the comm badges.

alchemist33 · 16-02-2019 5:09pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

I really enjoyed the episode. I thought Culber was done for when they finally managed to get him to the point of return only for his arm to dissolve. Nice turn.

I thought Stamets would stay behind in Mushroom World, and human and fungus would just agree to stop fighting each other

Spear · 16-02-2019 5:21pm

CastorTroy wrote: »

I actually thought the admiral was killed last season for some reason. Or was she jusy captured? Bad memory

No, just captured, badly wounded and then rescued.

EdgeCase · 16-02-2019 6:51pm

I have a feeling we've a lot more episodes of Tilly goes to Mushroom world.

pixelburp · 16-02-2019 6:54pm

That's it for the current producers right? I can't remember, it's kurtzmann taking over the producing duties now, I believe?

GSPfan · 16-02-2019 9:25pm

I think I enjoyed this episode. As mentioned before, the sinking ship stuff was cooool. The rescue mission element was great but I actually guessed the Doctor was the monster as soon as May mentioned it. And also the lack of urgency to get out was badly edited in comparison to the bridge crew being inches from death.

Another Burnham thing that is really wrecking my head now is the way she has to add on her thoughts onto everyone else’s sentences especially when they speak to the captain. If anyone is talking to Pike she has to jump in at the end to give a sound bite or an endorsement before Pike reacts. It’s doing my head in.

Example:

Saru: Captain, we must go to warp now before we are all destroyed.
Burnham: I agree with Saru captain, he has my complete confidence.
Pike: (Looks at Burnham) Ok that’s good enough for me.

Example:

Tilly: Captain, the anomaly’s structure is manifesting some kind of field that is changing it’s internal form.
Burnham: Like a caterpillar in a cocoon.
Pike: (Looks at Burnham) Well let’s hope it’s turning into a butterfly.

Inviere · 16-02-2019 9:35pm

filters wrote: »

There is no one at the wheel

I'm starting to feel that myself. It's a good idea to break up a long arc with 'off-arc' episodes, but watching Discovery is like trying to find my way through a maze. It's gone that long since the 7-signals Red Angel stuff that I'm starting to forget what's actually going on in the background. DS9 nailed how to pull off an engaging story arc, and broke it up at the right times, with the right content. Discovery though, jesus, what are they at in the writing room? It's all over the bloody place. I already feel I've lost touch with season 2 and need to start it again, five bloody episodes in.

helimachoptor · 16-02-2019 10:59pm

Best ep of S2 so far for me.

Cant begin to reason why the network isnt used in the TNG and later eras

Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]