Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

recedite · 02-08-2018 8:36am

When the school first opened there was no religious discrimination, as per the terms of the original agreement with Dept of Education which gave the CoI control of it.
But at the same time, the school was under-subcribed because not so many people wanted to send their kids to a brand new school operating out of prefabs on a building site. The BOM would have asked for people's religion on the application forms, but they did not act on it.
After the building work finished, and places became more sought after, the BOM started slipping in the restrictions, reserving places for special groups of people, ie discriminating against local non-CoI kids.
Places reserved for staff and clergy - a new Category Zero created to have priority over Category 1.
Priority for CoI kids within the 8 nominated local primary schools (and lets face it, nearly all of those would be in just 2 of those schools).
Provision for CoI kids from outside the area.
And finally the piece of paper to be issued and signed by the rector certifying actual church attendance, which is when the "lapsed protestants" started to become concerned.

Wicklow Will · 03-08-2018 7:26am

recedite wrote: »

Ah yes, the sneaky small print.Well, either this will be signed off routinely after the summer break, or there has been a deliberate plan to deceive the electorate with a dummy law. Either way it puts this legislation into a kind of limbo for the moment. But once its activated the minister does not interpret it, the courts do.

This is normal procedure for any piece of new legislation; it has to be signed into law by the relevant Minister. It’s called a Statutory Instrument (S.I.) There is normally a hiatus between the Bill being passed in the Dail and the S.I. being signed.

Annasopra · 04-08-2018 9:57am

Wicklow Will wrote: »

This is normal procedure for any piece of new legislation; it has to be signed into law by the relevant Minister. It’s called a Statutory Instrument (S.I.) There is normally a hiatus between the Bill being passed in the Dail and the S.I. being signed.

Indeed. A hiatus. Some of the Education Persons with Special Educational Needs 2004 hasnt been signed to commence yet.

But yeah its not sneaky at all. Its normal legislative procedure.

recedite · 04-08-2018 1:26pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Indeed. A hiatus. Some of the Education Persons with Special Educational Needs 2004 hasnt been signed to commence yet.
But yeah its not sneaky at all. Its normal legislative procedure.

"Normal" like a broken promise is normal, or a thief in the night.
I would say more "a possibility" than "normal".

Wicklow Will · 04-08-2018 2:41pm

recedite wrote: »

"Normal" like a broken promise is normal, or a thief in the night.
I would say more "a possibility" than "normal".

No, recedite, what I mean is that, every piece of new legislation which is passed by the Dail, requires an SI in order that it become active in law. This is normal or usual procedure. Whether or not it is justifiable to suggest that the process is unsound, is another matter entirely. By the same token, we may question the administration of the process and it’s timeliness or tardiness, but this is not to say that the process is flawed, rather the manner in which it is applied.

Annasopra · 04-08-2018 3:06pm

Wicklow Will wrote: »

No, recedite, what I mean is that, every piece of new legislation which is passed by the Dail, requires an SI in order that it become active in law. This is normal or usual procedure. Whether or not it is justifiable to suggest that the process is unsound, is another matter entirely. By the same token, we may question the administration of the process and it’s timeliness or tardiness, but this is not to say that the process is flawed, rather the manner in which it is applied.

Normal as in. This is NORMALLY how legislation works that it needs a ministerial order to be signed to commence.

recedite · 04-08-2018 5:37pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Normal as in. This is NORMALLY how legislation works that it needs a ministerial order to be signed to commence.

You're the one who pointed out that Special Educational Needs 2004 legislation does not work, or only partly works.
I'm not getting hung up on what could be a technicality, at least not yet. If it gets signed, fine.
If it never gets signed, then it was a dishonest political scam. Lets wait a while and see. If the legislation is still inoperable in 2-3months time, it will be time to start asking questions.
Designing things deliberately not to work is not a "normal" behaviour. At least not in my worldview.

recedite · 08-12-2018 1:14pm

I see the school board have been busy fighting a rearguard action against any pro-equality changes that might be coming down the tracks.

http://wicklownews.net/2017/05/wicklow-and-meath-church-of-ireland-reps-meet-fianna-fail-on-school-admissions/

https://twitter.com/MichaelNBarron/status/1051382336036761600

Sometimes I have to keep kicking myself to remind myself that this school was entirely built by the state, on state land, and is funded by the state. For the benefit of all local kids.

The Bishop Basher · 08-12-2018 3:11pm

With St Patrick’s now catering exclusively for Protestant kids, it’ll be interesting to see the breakdown of the next group of admissions into TCG alright..

Waiting patiently..

sinkadinka · 03-02-2019 6:21pm

Admissions for 2020 is being opened on-line tomorrow for anyone who is interested.

Wicklow Will · 04-02-2019 9:07am

recedite wrote: »

I see the school board have been busy fighting a rearguard action against any pro-equality changes that might be coming down the tracks.

http://wicklownews.net/2017/05/wicklow-and-meath-church-of-ireland-reps-meet-fianna-fail-on-school-admissions/

https://twitter.com/MichaelNBarron/status/1051382336036761600

Sometimes I have to keep kicking myself to remind myself that this school was entirely built by the state, on state land, and is funded by the state. For the benefit of all local kids.

Well, it looks like it’s all died a death and petered out. Things have just returned to normal, everyone has returned to their old posts (with the only casualties being the whistle-blowers) and the centre has held!

Wicklow Will · 04-02-2019 9:08am

sinkadinka wrote: »

Admissions for 2020 is being opened on-line tomorrow for anyone who is interested.

What’s the new admission policy like???

recedite · 04-02-2019 10:57am

Wicklow Will wrote: »

Well, it looks like it’s all died a death and petered out. Things have just returned to normal, everyone has returned to their old posts (with the only casualties being the whistle-blowers) and the centre has held!

Sad but true.
As far as I can understand it, the Admissions to Schools Bill was passed into law by the Dail last year, signed off by the President on 18th July and then landed on the desk of the Minister Of Education where it has remained ever since. Apparently he personally gets to decide which parts of it he wants to to implement.
And Joe McHugh is a guy that looks backwards rather than forwards.
A guy who is suspicious of progress and "initiatives".

Joe McHugh wrote:

There is a sense of “initiative overload” among teachers who feel pressurised into implementing a range of policies and reforms, according to the new Minister for Education.

The Bishop Basher · 04-02-2019 8:21pm

The current regime in both TCG and St Patrick’s believe themselves to be above the law and will stop at nothing to ensure they drag this town kicking and screaming back to the 70’s with their segregated schools and sectarian policies.

I was born and raised in the CoI but I don’t recognize it anymore and I’m ashamed of what it has become in recent years.

The problems aren’t just local either, they go all the way back to the Archbishop who not only supports but actively encourages this new brand of Sectarianism.

With the benefit of hindsight, granting patronage to the CoI has turned out to have been a terrible decision. Not just for the school and the community but it has also destroyed St Patrick’s parish which currently lies in ruins.

But then who would have known it would be used as a weapon of fear in the manner in which it has.

Shameful times for the CoI in Greystones.

Shameful times for the CoI in general.

Decent people across this town, of which there are many, really need to unite on this and reclaim the school back for ALL of the community and for many generations to come.

Zoo4m8 · 04-02-2019 11:43pm

Rennaws wrote: »

With St Patrick’s now catering exclusively for Protestant kids, it’ll be interesting to see the breakdown of the next group of admissions into TCG alright..

Waiting patiently..

I understand that admissions for this year number 131 of which 19 are COI..

How does that ratio suit?

Wicklow Will · 05-02-2019 8:53am

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I understand that admissions for this year number 131 of which 19 are COI..

How does that ratio suit?

That would seem slightly off kilter if you base calculations on the figures contained in their current admissions policy. Taking those figures as your base, and allowing for denominational adjustment it would be nearer 40 +/-

The Bishop Basher · 05-02-2019 9:52pm

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I understand that admissions for this year number 131 of which 19 are COI..

How does that ratio suit?

Can you provide a source for those figures ?

If true I would see them as indicative of the massive decline in parish numbers through the last year or so.

Many of the parishioners that worshipped in St Patrick’s for many generations have all now left, disgusted with the threatening, bullying, vindictive and bigoted behavior of the current regime. Some younger families do still attend but many only do so because they want a place in one of the schools and they almost all stop attending as soon as they get that place. Using the school to beat people into church on a Sunday was always the plan and it did get their numbers up for a short while but manipulating people through fear in that manner was always going to backfire and it looks like that’s happened sooner than any of us expected.

If you need proof of the drift away from TCG, just look at the numbers applying to St David’s. 4 years ago they took in less then 50 kids in first year but you wouldn't get a place for love nor money there now.

If you need proof of the decline of the parish in general just look at the piss poor attendance and the parish fair last December. It took some creative accounting and a large “donation” for them to get the numbers up to usual levels but the reality was very different. What was for decades a well supported event was a ghost town and raised a mere pittance of what was raised in previous years.

There’s a core group of people who continue to support this evil regime, some naively and some through willful ignorance but anyone aware of the facts and the manner in which these people have acted would be well aware of the sinsister depths to which they’ll sink to make sure they force their bigoted agenda through.

TCG is brought to you by the same people who have turned St Patrick’s into a Protestant school for Protestant children. The same people who have cleared out so many of the decent honorable people while leaving the rot behind to implement their sectarian policies unchallenged.

The Church of Ireland has become a sinister force within the community, much to the dismay of CoI clergy and parishioners up and down the country but of course they also have been silenced along with the teachers, parents and parishioners of St Patrick’s Greystones.

Scary times.

Wicklow Will · 05-02-2019 11:00pm

Rennaws wrote: »

The current regime in both TCG and St Patrick’s believe themselves to be above the law and will stop at nothing to ensure they drag this town kicking and screaming back to the 70’s with their segregated schools and sectarian policies.

I was born and raised in the CoI but I don’t recognize it anymore and I’m ashamed of what it has become in recent years.

The problems aren’t just local either, they go all the way back to the Archbishop who not only supports but actively encourages this new brand of Sectarianism.

With the benefit of hindsight, granting patronage to the CoI has turned out to have been a terrible decision. Not just for the school and the community but it has also destroyed St Patrick’s parish which currently lies in ruins.

But then who would have known it would be used as a weapon of fear in the manner in which it has.

Shameful times for the CoI in Greystones.

Shameful times for the CoI in general.

Decent people across this town, of which there are many, really need to unite on this and reclaim the school back for ALL of the community and for many generations to come.

I too grew up in the Church of Ireland and am gravely disturbed by the revelations, both local and national, that have come to light over the last year. I was a parishioner of St Patricks and a member of the select vestry, however, in light of several developments with which I was very uncomfortable I left; so I am aware of how it operates and I am deeply saddened to see people for whom I had great regard, continue to lend support to the regime in St Patrick's. I am also desperately concerned at the direction that a number of other parishes in the Republic of Ireland are taking and a considerable number in Northern Ireland as extremely conservative elements seek to undo the advances in ecumenism and liberal theology on several fronts. Such a reversal of positions would have unimaginable results for our communities and the most vulnerable within them.

I have to say that I'm inclined to agree with Rennaws, when he/she says that it could be argued that the development of TCG had 'cons' as well as 'pros' for St Patrick's. I pose the questions - did we become self-satisfied, vain glorious, proud in securing the patronage of such a large and well equipped modern school? Were our egos massaged and inflated? Was it the Christ of our own imagining that was at the centre of things rather than the Christ of the gospels?

I would urge people - good people - to examine their consciences, search their hearts and do the right thing.

Zoo4m8 · 06-02-2019 10:35am

Wicklow Will wrote: »

That would seem slightly off kilter if you base calculations on the figures contained in their current admissions policy. Taking those figures as your base, and allowing for denominational adjustment it would be nearer 40 +/-

I see..so the ratio doesn’t suit then?

In my innocence I would have thought it was quite straightforward, one reads the list of admissions for the current year, one then counts those whose affiliation is declared as COI, only the most basic calculation needed and “denominational adjustment” need not be troubled...

The Bishop Basher · 06-02-2019 3:36pm

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I see..so the ratio doesn’t suit then?

I can only speak for myself here but no it doesn't suit because there shouldn't be any ratio at all.

TCG is a state built and state funded school.

The CoI campaigned for patronage on the basis that it would be a school for the entire community. Access was promised to be equal for all and they received support from the wider community on that premise.

"19 category 1 students (13%) were afforded a priority on admissions through claiming an affiliation to the CoI."

Why ? Why are 13% of accepted applicants so special that they've been awarded priority places, based solely on the fact that their parents happen to be the "correct" religion ?

It's also worth noting that..

"Siblings accounted for 52% of all places awarded for 2019".

Which is great for them but how many of those original siblings received preferential places at the time because their parents also just happened to be the "correct" religion and "in" with the rector and his clique ?

All any of this does is just compound the inequity..

But to be honest, the biggest surprise for me in all of this are the low numbers of parish affiliated and the sheer speed with which the current incumbent is destroying what was once the fastest growing and one of the largest CoI parishes in the country.

I know he's doing his best to resolve this by keeping St Patricks as Protestant only but this will backfire in the end too.

Another indication of the move away from these backward sectarian bigoted policies is the massive increase in applications to St Davids. 4 years ago they couldn't fill a year. Now you can't get a place there for love nor money and unlike St. Patrick’s, they’re actually expanding in line with the growing needs of the community.

The current regime has been driving families away from the church faster then rats from a sinking ship. So many families that have worshiped there for generations have now left in sheer disgust with the bullying, threatening, dishonest, intimidatory and vindictive tactics employed by those in charge. Thankfully the vast majority of CoI people that I have met are embarrassed and appalled by this behaviour but there's only so much anyone can do when the rot runs all the way to the top.

The sooner the patronage is removed and given to a group who won't abuse it for their own ends, the better.

I would happily and actively support any movement to make that happen.

Wicklow Will · 07-02-2019 9:34am

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I see..so the ratio doesn’t suit then?

In my innocence I would have thought it was quite straightforward, one reads the list of admissions for the current year, one then counts those whose affiliation is declared as COI, only the most basic calculation needed and “denominational adjustment” need not be troubled...

- 1 - Temple Carrig Secondary School Admissions Policy

School
Overall Percentage of places offered
St Laurence’s NS
22%
St Kevin’s NS
17%
St Patrick’s NS
15%
Delgany NS
10 %

Greystones Educate Together
10%
St Brigid’s NS
9%
Gael Scoil
9%
St Andrew’s (Cat 2)
5%
Powerscourt NS (Cat 2)
2%
St Francis (Cat 2)
1. %

When you look at the CoI schools listed above,
(St Patrick’s, Delgany, St Andrews, St Francis and Enniskerry) and apply the percentages stated to 131 admissions I think you’ll arrive at approx 44 Allowing for the fact that not all pupils migrating from the schools stated are Protestant you should adjust your figures to take account of this, hence why I stated “approx 40 +/-“. You also need to allow for the fact that not all Protestants are CoI; some of the children could be: Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Brethern, Lutheran, Cooneyite, Quaker, Moravian etc. So simply by stating that 19 of those enrolled are CoI is to exclude any and all other Protestants.

recedite · 07-02-2019 6:04pm

The figures quoted do seem a bit "off".
33% or one third of successful applicants came from CoI feeder schools, which would be around 40 pupils.

Bear in mind it is extremely difficult for kids to get into these particular feeder schools nowadays if they are not of the "correct" religion.

19 of them were awarded "priority admission" as a reward for their diligent church attendance record.

However they should not have needed to use that mechanism, as there were apparently places left over.

Apparently every single child from the other non-CoI designated local feeder schools in Greystones and Delgany (Cat 1) who wanted a place must have been offered one.

TCG was then able to award the surplus places to kids from outside the area (Cat 2) The surplus places were stated to be 8%, equating to 10 or 11 pupils, and these were drawn from CoI schools further afield.

recedite · 08-02-2019 5:14pm

Is it true then, that no child attending a primary school in Greystones or Delgany was refused a place in TCG for 2019?

stilltryingit · 10-02-2019 12:28pm

19 new entrants were awarded a priority place for 2019 based on them claiming CoI affiliation. Other children who are CoI would also have been awarded a place on random selection, they were baptised CoI but not deemed to be CoI enough to get the priority.
All children who got a place from outside the local area could only have got that place by being CoI (12 in 2019 I think). But in addition to those groups there would also be a large group of siblings who got a place automatically as they have an older sibling in the school. Does anyone know of a child in either CoI school who applied for a place and didn't get it?
It's sad to see adults feel the need to differentiate between children who were baptised CoI and children who are "better CoI". If a catholic school did this there would be absolute outrage.

recedite · 10-02-2019 12:52pm

stilltryingit wrote: »

Does anyone know of a child in either CoI school who applied for a place and didn't get it?

These 2 schools have no more priority than any of the other local feeder schools.

TCG would not/should not have been able to award the 10 or 11 surplus places to kids from outside the area (in Cat 2) until all the kids in all the local feeder schools had been offered a place.

tabby aspreme · 10-02-2019 1:16pm

stilltryingit wrote: »

19 new entrants were awarded a priority place for 2019 based on them claiming CoI affiliation. Other children who are CoI would also have been awarded a place on random selection, they were baptised CoI but not deemed to be CoI enough to get the priority.
It's sad to see adults feel the need to differentiate between children who were baptised CoI and children who are "better CoI". If a catholic school did this there would be absolute outrage.

I have a nephew in a Church of England secondary school in the UK, practicing CoE children get priority, then the top 20 in the entrance exam, then children, from families of other Christian faiths who are practicing , his parents had to get a letter from their Parish Priest to say the are regular Mass goers, and take part in other parish activities. His best pal from primary school who was CoE was refused entry as his family were not known by the local Vicar

10-02-2019 5:19pm

My daughter attends Templecarrig. She applied and got in despite the fact that she is not CoI. I am very happy with the school and so is she. Initially she didn’t get in, it was only because someone pulled out that she eventually got a place. When we initially though she hadn’t a place we didn’t make a song and dance about it. I’m sure she would have got on just fine in a different school.

I’m CoI myself, but never attend church as I couldn’t be arsed with all of the politics.

That’s just my 2c worth, life is too short

recedite · 10-02-2019 5:43pm

tabby aspreme wrote: »

his family were not known by the local Vicar

"Not known by the police" is generally good.
But "Not known by the vicar" is bad.

Not a directly comparable situation though, because in that situation the CoE school is "a private school" and there is probably another school in the area which is a state school, run by the local council.
TCG on the other hand, was built by the state specifically to provide secondary education for the local primary feeder schools, and is owned and funded by the state. It just happens to be managed (currently) by the CoI.

recedite · 10-02-2019 5:55pm

2011 wrote: »

Initially she didn’t get in, it was only because someone pulled out that she eventually got a place.

You didn't say whether she attended one of the local feeder schools, but if she did then she would have been ahead in terms of priority of any of the Cat 2 people who were offered a place. So there would have been no question of whether she would get in or not.

Of course, this partly relates back to the shortage of primary school places in the area, which means a lot of parents are taking kids out of the area for primary schooling. The parents may not be aware of it but those kids will then have a lesser entitlement to a place in TCG.

Then you have the situation in St Patricks National school which has resisted expansion, on the basis that expansion would dilute its ethos.
However, you can't hold back the tide of humanity forever, and so a large new primary school building is currently being built in Charlesland.
This school will take a significant proportion of the places in TCG in future years, and there is nothing the CoI patron can do to prevent that from happening.

tabby aspreme · 10-02-2019 6:05pm

recedite wrote: »

"Not known by the police" is generally good.
But "Not known by the vicar" is bad.

Not a directly comparable situation though, because in that situation the CoE school is "a private school" and there is probably another school in the area which is a state school, run by the local council.
TCG on the other hand, was built by the state specifically to provide secondary education for the local primary feeder schools, and is owned and funded by the state. It just happens to be managed (currently) by the CoI.

This school was built and funded by the UK government, no fees, just managed by the CoE.

Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

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