Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Midlife · 06-02-2019 10:36pm

So we're agreed, a five year rolling backstop which will be done away with as soon as the brexiteers sort out the frictionless border.

So downcow, at least you can see a sensible compromise. No way in hell such a thing gets through the HOC though.

FrancieBrady · 06-02-2019 10:37pm

downcow wrote: »

For you to be such a supporter of gfa. Do you not realise that the penny that dropped in NI was that the communities ts finally realised that quality of life would be better if the cooperated rather than competing (some haven’t got it yet). In time Eu will realise that quality of life is better for all of Eu and UK cooperate. You are expressing a position that in NI is known as dinasaur. Paisley type.

The GFA ensures co-operation. That is why the DUP have been forced into government. It is 'share power' or be left outside.
Honestly - your delusions about what the GFA is are dangerous and concerning.

briany · 06-02-2019 10:38pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That's basically describes the current deal except you've backstopped the backstop with a new backstop

Pretty much, yeah. But my deal has one advantage and that is that it will not allow the UK to sit on their hands and wait out the clock, and it gives everybody a bit more breathing space.

It may be that it just kicks the can a decade down the road, but that at least gives everyone a lot more time to prepare.

Charles Babbage · 06-02-2019 10:39pm

Midlife wrote: »

So we're agreed, a five year rolling backstop which will be done away with as soon as the brexiteers sort out the frictionless border.

So we're agreed, a five year rolling backstop which will be done away with as soon as the brexiteers sort out the frictionless border, to the satisfaction of the people of NI.

Irishmale0399 · 06-02-2019 10:40pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

So we're agreed, a five year rolling backstop which will be done away with as soon as the brexiteers sort out the frictionless border, to the satisfaction of the people of NI.

Will the people of Northern Ireland ever be satisfied??? I doubt it...one group or the other will always have another opinion.

LeinsterDub · 06-02-2019 10:41pm

https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1093178959716671489

Another item to add to 'the EU has run out of patience' list.

Infini · 06-02-2019 10:41pm

downcow wrote: »

It is simple. We are not locked in for eternity with no control.
If Eu would pay for the bridge to Scotland as a sweetener we’d be sorted.

The whole leave campaign and all the information from it was a LIE.
You had control by being a member of the EU. Leaving means you lose it.
Anything about the backstop removing control is populist pandering by the DUP. The backstop is purely a standards and trade insurance policy only to be used in the event of a lack of any agreement until it can be replaced. Nothing more nothing less.

Let me also be clear, if your not able to justify a position and be able to back this up with proven facts then it means your the one in the wrong. The problem is that Brexit as an entire concept is wrong, lacking any benefits and its implementation is a shambles. If this affected only the UK it would be just simply sad but it affects everyone that's connected to it. What's worse is the government over there is a disgrace because it keeps pushing this brainless policy with seemingly no clear plan.

Brexit in itself was a case of Ordinary Everyday Stupid as it was done based more on who could scare the people the most people with lies, baseless fears and a campaign of misinformation. What's worse is the side that won had no credible plan about going about doing this it's all adhoc!
The whole withdrawal process is a case of Advanced Stupid purely because noone on the UK could agree and spent the whole time arguing amongst themselves, not willing to review the whole process based on evidence of financial wrongdoing and possible outside interference by Russia for example, not agree a realistic and orderly withdrawal and red lines that damage Britain further. What's worse is this is meant to be the starting of the withdrawal process not the final one the rest was meant to done at a later time like trade treaties and such.
The worst thing however is next month if they crash out. This would be a Master's Degree in Stupid as it will severely damage Britain but the collateral damage will alienate everyone around them. You don't like Tusk for making an ACCURATE statement? Just wait and see how people on this side will feel when they have to contain the mess the UK caused and the NEEDLESS damage to everyone around them that didnt need to happen and cost them time and money that did not need to be spent if Britain had copped on.

Anthracite · 06-02-2019 10:42pm

downcow wrote: »

Let’s asssume you are correct and there are no alternatives. Will then we can’t sign up and it’s no deal.

So the UK will bin the Belfast Agreement, a prior treaty it entered into democratically, for political expedience?

And then you wonder why people feel the backstop is needed. You make our case for us.

Anthracite · 06-02-2019 10:43pm

downcow wrote: »

In time Eu will realise that quality of life is better for all of Eu and UK cooperate. You are expressing a position that in NI is known as dinasaur. Paisley type.

The EU realised this decades ago. The UK has recently forgotten.

The EU nations will continue cooperating while the UK gets out-negotiated by the Faroe Islands and Mauritania.

lawred2 · 06-02-2019 10:48pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1093178959716671489

Another item to add to 'the EU has run out of patience' list.

Is that real?

06-02-2019 10:49pm

downcow wrote: »

Look I don’t expect you to agree.
But how can Uk sign up to an indefinite length arrangement that they cannot get out of with the permission of roi (or any of 27 others). I honestly think that is rediculous and I think we have no choice but to go no deal if that is the option.
I could live with a 10 year arrangement but not indefinite. Is that fair?

No, that is based on May's request for a UK wide backstop. May and the UK team, after 2 years insisted on a UK wide backstop.

The original proposal was NI only, is that not fair?

Even if we accepted a time limit, what is your PLAN for everything being so smooth to allow the backstop to lapse.
Details man, details.

downcow · 06-02-2019 10:50pm

Popeleo wrote: »

Hi downcow,

Before you mooove on, I was just wondering what your perspective is on the future. In my view, two of the most probable outcomes are going to cause huge problems for unionists in NI in the very near future:

1. An 11th hour agreement is reached , with May's concession being to go back to the original NI-only backstop, with a border down the Irish sea, the DUP thrown under a bus. May won't care, she won't need them, Brexit has been secured, Corbyn is still an idiot and she calls a snap election on March 30th.

2. No agreement reached, a crash-out Brexit causes significant economic damage to the UK, especially the poorer regions. Funding to NI is cut. Scotland looks for and wins Indyref2 in 2021. Unionism has to think about exactly who they are loyal to, seeing as most are of Scots extraction and the UK is then basically England + two tiny add-ons.

I wasn’t mooving on completely just from the “lie-debate”.
Well again I will be honest and take the inevitable flack.
1) we are economically fine in this situation. Indeed probably the best economic situation as best of both worlds ie NI wil be gateway into eu. We’ ll be British and Eu. Not my cultural preference and I am sure will increase the siege mentality so our Marching bands and orange order will get a new lease of life and we’ll be fine.
2 if Scotland goes then borders will be even more messy. I don’t see that have any impact on our desire to remain in UK. One thing I have learnt on this thread is that southerners and maybe nationalists have a very different perspective from me of what Britishness means. Deep in our sycy is the right of people to choose and if Scotland wanted to go independent they would do that with my blessing and I’d want us to have a very special neighbourly relationship based on our history. I don’t have the prejudice to English people that many nationalists do. I like engaging with them. Like to see their football team do well etc etc. So I have no concerns about that scenario

Hurrache · 06-02-2019 10:51pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1093178959716671489

Another item to add to 'the EU has run out of patience' list.

The card came from an Irish family to Juncker which he was showing to Varadkar.

Folkstonian · 06-02-2019 10:55pm

Hurrache wrote: »

The card came from an Irish family to Juncker which he was showing to Varadkar.

And the European Commission have elected to release the message to the press

Europe has launched into a ‘combined arms’ operation today on the PR front. No deal Brexit is imminent

LeinsterDub · 06-02-2019 10:55pm

Hurrache wrote: »

The card came from an Irish family to Juncker which he was showing to Varadkar.

Nothing happens with out prior media approval

Hurrache · 06-02-2019 10:56pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Nothing happens with out prior media approval

Doesn't matter, it didn't come from Varadkar or official Ireland.

LeinsterDub · 06-02-2019 10:56pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Is that real?

https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1093180915898073088

J Mysterio · 06-02-2019 10:56pm

This is the twilight zone that we have entered now.

UK PM May in unicorn fantasy lad.
EU Council president criticises right wing of Tory Party.
DUP MP releases another bizarro statement.
Irish senator criticises DUP in odd tweet
Tory MP likes tweet.

Things are just frickin weird now. It's a free for all.

LeinsterDub · 06-02-2019 10:57pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Doesn't matter, it didn't come from Varadkar or official Ireland.

I don't think anyone said it did. Did they?

FrancieBrady · 06-02-2019 10:57pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

And the European Commission have elected to release the message to the press

Europe has launched into a ‘combined arms’ operation today on the PR front. No deal Brexit is imminent

Proper order and properly timed. Somebody has to pressure the UK to come to some decision...any decision.

Hurrache · 06-02-2019 10:58pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

And the European Commission have elected to release the message to the press

Europe has launched into a ‘combined arms’ operation today on the PR front. No deal Brexit is imminent

And the people who wrote the card have power over the negotiation process moreso than the random posters here?

It's hilarious watching people get their knickers in a knot, the foreigners simply aren't playing cricket you know.

Hurrache · 06-02-2019 11:00pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I don't think anyone said it did. Did they?

It was insinuated earlier today it came from official Ireland, and líke how BBC purposely misquoted Tusk it had taken on legs. Just read that thread alone for examples.

Folkstonian · 06-02-2019 11:02pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Proper order and properly timed. Somebody has to pressure the UK to come to some decision...any decision.

The decision has been made by your guys in Brussels, I think!

I’d have definitely preferred a deal of course. But, well, we are where we are.

I’d prefer May didn’t put herself through the humiliation (well, the country, she can humiliate her abject self all she wants) of running between Brussels and Dublin with a begging bowl for the next couple of months, but it’s been her whole thing for a couple of years so that won’t change, I don’t expect

FrancieBrady · 06-02-2019 11:04pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

The decision has been made by your guys in Brussels, I think!

I’d have definitely preferred a deal of course. But, well, we are where we are.

I’d prefer May didn’t put herself through the humiliation (well, the country, she can humiliate her abject self all she wants) of running between Brussels and Dublin with a begging bowl for the next couple of months, but it’s been her whole thing for a couple of years so that won’t change, I don’t expect

Two years and still we don't know what the UK want. I think that completely demolishes your attempt to blame others.
Had May not lay in bed with religious and cultural zealots the deal would be done and hosed. Demolishes your blame game again.

Folkstonian · 06-02-2019 11:04pm

Hurrache wrote: »

And the people who wrote the card have power over the negotiation process moreso than the random posters here?

It's hilarious watching people get their knickers in a knot, the foreigners simply aren't playing cricket you know.

My, my. Why so angry? Your side is winning here, remember.

No knickers in a twist this end, just slight bemusement at the thought process in Europe today. As said above, they’ve evidently given up on the hope that British MPs will sign up to the withdrawal agreement.

Folkstonian · 06-02-2019 11:05pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Two years and still we don't know what the UK want. I think that completely demolishes your attempt to blame others.
Had May not lay in bed with religious and cultural zealots the deal would be done and hosed. Demolishes your blame game again.

Where’s the blame? Europe has every right to tell her to sod off. That’s your own interpretation of events.

ilovesmybrick · 06-02-2019 11:06pm

downcow wrote: »

Not my cultural preference and I am sure will increase the siege mentality so our Marching bands and orange order will get a new lease of life and we’ll be fine.

You do realise that the Orange Order celebrates a Dutch man who invaded Britain? This is not to detract from your beliefs, but the entire Orange Order culture is based upon a Britain forged through a European system. Do you not see why this is mad for the rest of the continent?

RobMc59 · 06-02-2019 11:07pm

Anthracite wrote: »

The EU realised this decades ago. The UK has recently forgotten.

The EU nations will continue cooperating while the UK gets out-negotiated by the Faroe Islands and Mauritania.

It's difficult watching your country being humiliated on a world stage but a plus side is May's total humiliation is good for those of us who want to remain-its safe to say unless something extraordinary occurs in the next few days the deal is totally dead in the water-which leaves either a hard brexit or revoking of article 50.I would have been very hopeful of the UK remaining but perhaps the sniggering and gloating by Tusk and Taoiseach Varadkar was ill advised-that alone will enable the likes of JRM, bojo and DUP to "rally the troops" as it were and influence the ditherers sitting on the fence.

Thargor · 06-02-2019 11:07pm

downcow wrote: »

I wasn’t mooving on completely just from the “lie-debate”.
Well again I will be honest and take the inevitable flack.
1) we are economically fine in this situation. Indeed probably the best economic situation as best of both worlds ie NI wil be gateway into eu. We’ ll be British and Eu. Not my cultural preference and I am sure will increase the siege mentality so our Marching bands and orange order will get a new lease of life and we’ll be fine.
2 if Scotland goes then borders will be even more messy. I don’t see that have any impact on our desire to remain in UK. One thing I have learnt on this thread is that southerners and maybe nationalists have a very different perspective from me of what Britishness means. Deep in our sycy is the right of people to choose and if Scotland wanted to go independent they would do that with my blessing and I’d want us to have a very special neighbourly relationship based on our history. I don’t have the prejudice to English people that many nationalists do. I like engaging with them. Like to see their football team do well etc etc. So I have no concerns about that scenario

How do you speak with such authority on the subject when by your own admission you'd never heard of Theresa Mays red lines until last week? Its laughable.

FrancieBrady · 06-02-2019 11:07pm

Folkstonian wrote: »

Where’s the blame? Europe has every right to tell her to sod off. That’s your own interpretation of events.

Your insinuation that today has caused a No Deal, is 'blame'.

Nothing caused a No Deal only those who welched on a deal.

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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