Is accountability alien to our public sector?

PhilOssophy · 01-02-2019 8:10pm #1

Firstly, it is important to say that I do not mean this as an attack on the public sector, the majority of which do a fine job in in some cases very tough environments.

But hearing Simon Harris say today that the PWC report into the childrens hospital should find nobody personally accountable for the failures on the project to date.

This follows hot on the heels of a scandal which cost people their lives in the cervical cancer scandal - public servants knew that women were terminally ill and didn't compel doctors to tell these women. 1 person retired, and swanned off with a big pension.

This follows many previous scandals involving Gardai, Tusla, and many more state agencies who have been embroiled in various scandals over the years.

This all got me thinking, what does somebody in the public sector have to do to be held accountable for incompetence, mis-management, etc.

Are the lines of accountability simply too blurred for any 1 individual to be held accountable?
I have a friend who is a QS who said if they under-estimated something of the scale of the childrens hospital, they would be clearing their desk the minute the error was noticed. Why isn't this happening?

I appreciate mistakes happen. We all make them. But this isn't a simple error on a calculator. This is a reckless careless indifferent attitude to how tax payers money is spent. It is such a poor lack of oversight that surely at some point in this country somebody has to shout enough is enough.

If we are ever to stop messes like this happening over and over again, at some point, surely people need to start paying for their mistakes with their job.

If nobody is held accountable for these sort of mistakes, then surely all that is going to happen next time is another 450k (is the cost of that even certain) into the pockets of PWC and another report to just gather dust beside the other reports gathering dust?

Fann Linn · 01-02-2019 8:12pm

The day Ministers and politicians take responsibility is the day the PS can be held accountable.

Don't hold your breath.

Ash.J.Williams · 01-02-2019 8:12pm

that childrens hospital was a minor oversight

(Wonder did harris know)

mikeecho · 01-02-2019 8:13pm

Is accountability alien to our public sector?

Yes.

No need for a poll.

End

PhilOssophy · 01-02-2019 8:14pm

mikeecho wrote: »

Yes.

No need for a poll.

End

Where did I mention anything about a poll? It is a discussion.

mikeecho · 01-02-2019 8:14pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Where did I mention anything about a poll? It is a discussion.

You can't beat a good poll

End

conorhal · 01-02-2019 8:15pm

Uh, yeah. And always has been. I'd argue it's endemic to Irish culture, we like to pretend it comes from the top down, but really it's bottom up. You only have to peruse the court papers to see how our whole culture is utterly devoid of the concept of personal responsibility.

PMC999 · 01-02-2019 8:19pm

There is no accountability in the public sector because they have jobs for life.
If you cannot suffer the ultimate sanction of being fired it is no surprise that there is no accountability.
Public sector unions are as guilty as our politicians for allowing this madness to continue.

PingTing comes for Fire · 01-02-2019 8:20pm

Is accountability public sector to aliens?

RobbingBandit · 01-02-2019 8:21pm

Health sector more like. Medical misadventure what a fun misnomer

uck51js9zml2yt · 01-02-2019 8:21pm

mikeecho wrote: »

You can't beat a good poll

End

Is that like a mass?

Poor Uncle Tom · 01-02-2019 8:23pm

Accountability isn't alien to the Public Sector but I do think it takes a back seat to greed.

Rubberchikken · 01-02-2019 8:23pm

of course there's no accountability.
whats the point in a discussion - its a known fact.

Edward M · 01-02-2019 8:24pm

mikeecho wrote: »

You can't beat a good poll

End

Of course you can.

.
Accountability should eventually stop with the minister and Govt responsible.
All this has been signed off by them, all an enquiry will do is try to shift the blame further down the line, hence the wording that this shouldn't be about personal accountability.
Interesting listening to that twat Donnelly from FF on the six one too, he said if it wasn't for brexit there would be a totally different response from FF and they would be seeking accountability from the minister and Govt, virtually saying they would collapse the Govt over this but for brexit.
Gutless cowards in FF too to let this go without looking for heads now.

mad muffin · 01-02-2019 8:25pm

You don’t pay the garlic tax you get the hose…

Wheeliebin30 · 01-02-2019 8:25pm

Edward M wrote: »

Of course you can. .
Accountability should eventually stop with the minister and Govt responsible.
All this has been signed off by them, all an enquiry will do is try to shift the blame further down the line, hence the wording that this shouldn't be about personal accountability.
Interesting listening to that twat Donnelly from FF on the six one too, he said if it wasn't for brexit there would be a totally different response from FF and they would be seeking accountability from the minister and Govt, virtually saying they would collapse the Govt over this but for brexit.
Gutless cowards in FF too to let this go without looking for heads now.

There some hypocrites considering the port tunnel was budgeted at 400 million but came in at 850 million under FF.

Ultimate hypocrisy.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-02-2019 8:27pm

Edward M wrote: »

Of course you can. .
Accountability should eventually stop with the minister and Govt responsible.
All this has been signed off by them, all an enquiry will do is try to shift the blame further down the line, hence the wording that this shouldn't be about personal accountability.
Interesting listening to that twat Donnelly from FF on the six one too, he said if it wasn't for brexit there would be a totally different response from FF and they would be seeking accountability from the minister and Govt, virtually saying they would collapse the Govt over this but for brexit.
Gutless cowards in FF too to let this go without looking for heads now.

That’s totally wrong. The politicians may be somewhat responsible but in general they don’t micro manage these services or the day to day administration

Silentcorner · 01-02-2019 8:27pm

We don't do standards in Irish society...Banking, Health, Media, Education, Judiciary, Political...you name, we will find a way to f##k it up...we lack self awareness as a people, which doesn't help either!

Your Face · 01-02-2019 8:30pm

'Discussion'

Silentcorner · 01-02-2019 8:30pm

Edward M wrote: »

Of course you can. .
Accountability should eventually stop with the minister and Govt responsible.
All this has been signed off by them, all an enquiry will do is try to shift the blame further down the line, hence the wording that this shouldn't be about personal accountability.
Interesting listening to that twat Donnelly from FF on the six one too, he said if it wasn't for brexit there would be a totally different response from FF and they would be seeking accountability from the minister and Govt, virtually saying they would collapse the Govt over this but for brexit.
Gutless cowards in FF too to let this go without looking for heads now.

FF don't have the money for an election, Brexit or no Brexit...that is why they didn't fight the presidential election, they have to fight the locals and european elections this year.

They are a cancer in Irish political life.

bleary · 01-02-2019 8:32pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

This follows hot on the heels of a scandal which cost people their lives in the cervical cancer scandal - public servants knew that women were terminally ill and didn't compel doctors to tell these women. 1 person retired, and swanned off with a big pension. /quote]

Sorry that is not true, it is not the case that they weren't told they were terminally ill.
It is the case that when their files were rechecked after a cervical cancer diagnosis, some screens showed indications of cancer. This should have been communicated to patients but wasn't ,a disgrace but very different from your assertion.

Edward M · 01-02-2019 8:36pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s totally wrong. The politicians may be somewhat responsible but in general they don’t micro manage these services or the day to day administration

This children's hospital thing is FGs Bertie Bowl.
Of course they're responsible, how could you not see prices increasing so dramatically without doing detailed research in to it before now.
The brainwashed always accept excuses as it's not as bad as you think or some such.
This is bound to affect other services, and the already hard pressed health services.
And they're refusing to give anything to the nurses, they don't matter, just the big shiny FG children's hospital, a lasting monument that they can put on their posters for generations.

ankles · 01-02-2019 8:42pm

What there isn't in the public sector is the payoff. In the private sector, as in the public sector, ordinary staff do their thing, some good some not so good, but they can't do too much damage. As you move up the private sector and get near the top, the responsibility, and the pay, get a lot bigger. So what happens then if you f**k up. They do some version of fire you/suspend you and eventually pay you off somewhere near the steps of the court, or earlier if they are sensible and avoid the lawyers. In the public sector there is no stomach to pay off senior civil servants. Partly because there is a mutual reliance pact between civil servants and politicians, and partly because everyone would be hung out to dry for the publicly disclosed payoff of the idiot concerned, rather than the hushed up approach in the private sector. It's actually quite hard to fire people in the private sector as well. All this talk about firing civil servants is quite funny actually, as though it's par for the course in the private sector

dxhound2005 · 01-02-2019 9:06pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Firstly, it is important to say that I do not mean this as an attack on the public sector,

Yes you do.

n97 mini · 01-02-2019 9:18pm

ankles wrote: »

It's actually quite hard to fire people in the private sector as well.

Relatively speaking it's not. Of all the people fired from their jobs in 2018 what was the ratio of public vs private, considering the public sector is around 18% of the workforce. From memory the high profile cases all retired first, which is the public sector equivalent of "the payoff" you mention.

RustyNut · 01-02-2019 9:18pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

There some hypocrites considering the port tunnel was budgeted at 400 million but came in at 850 million under FF.

Ultimate hypocrisy.

FG are outdoing them on every level. Incompitence, corruption, wasting tax payers money and now a report designed to protect their ministers and cronies.

New politics my asre.

ankles · 01-02-2019 9:48pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Relatively speaking it's not. Of all the people fired from their jobs in 2018 what was the ratio of public vs private, considering the public sector is around 18% of the workforce. From memory the high profile cases all retired first, which is the public sector equivalent of "the payoff" you mention.

What I'm saying is its hard to fire in general, but in the public sector they won't even pay people off to get rid of them. Add in the absence of redundancy and no one ever gets fired, in any shape or form, in the public sector. Apart from people caught thieving or fighting. Actually most fired civil servants are due to persistent non-attendance or lateness. The clock evidence is the employer's friend.

dxhound2005 · 01-02-2019 10:00pm

ankles wrote: »

What I'm saying is its hard to fire in general, but in the public sector they won't even pay people off to get rid of them. Add in the absence of redundancy and no one ever gets fired, in any shape or form, in the public sector. Apart from people caught thieving or fighting. Actually most fired civil servants are due to persistent non-attendance or lateness. The clock evidence is the employer's friend.

You would make a good civil servant.

BBFAN · 01-02-2019 10:20pm

I think there are a lot of public sector workers on boards OP, so you're on a losing streak straight off but I agree with you completely.

I deal with public sector employees daily in my current position and they genuinely do not give 2 ****s about their job, it's all voicemails and emails. And btw their emails have no telephone number on them in case god forbid you might ring them.

I also have a friend who works in the public sector and insists that she has to take her sick leave days EVERY year.

It's turns my stomach.

mariaalice · 01-02-2019 10:32pm

The government HSE does not want to be sued if someone is going to be blamed thrown under the bus there has to be 100% proof that they and they alone were responsible.

Some of the people on the hospital procurement board will change and they will go to be directors of private sector companies, they came from private companies.

Snow Garden · 01-02-2019 10:42pm

I work in the public sector and accountability doesn't exist at any management level.
Performance reviews are a sham too. Everybody gets a good review or else you get the union chasing your manager around the place.

It can be demoralising at times but you get used to it.
And don't even attempt to suggest improvements or the union reps will be chasing you around the place because some career dosser feels threatened.

Is accountability alien to our public sector?

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