Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

QuintusFabius · 26-01-2019 09:23PM

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

If Andrew was around 30 years ago Gaybo would never have been allowed put a condom onto that banana.

with his mouth ...

Slutmonkey57b · 27-01-2019 11:24AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Gender is not transgender. You don't need to have a PhD to have an opinion. We all have opinions, me included. But the flagship current affairs show on a public broadcaster really should require something more than opinion.

This isn't a college debating club. This is the flagship current affairs show on a public broadcaster. It really doesn't matter what he believes or how articulate and persuasive he is. He has no expertise or experience.

Anyone following this debate on Twitter knows that women particularly but people in general are afraid to speak up and voice their opinion because of the very real harassment and threats to their family, livelihood, and indeed life that will inevitably result.

I'm sure you're aware of that and you're also aware that the same message coming from a famous man will always be treated with more weight than it will coming from a previously anonymous woman.

I'm sure you're also aware of the violent abuse and harassment that female academics who are experts in the field have received for offering their views.

So in the face of that, it is very difficult for anyone to stick their head above the parapet and risk things from not working again to having transwomen posting pictures of themselves holding knives on Twitter sending death threats. All of the tactics that have worked on removing or threatening women into silence haven't worked on him, and he's stood up against them, including spurious wasting of police time.

So the question is, why are you pretending there isn't a valid reason why linehan was chosen to represent one side of a debate, given that he was evidently able to articulate the beliefs of a substantial portion of the population clearly and accurately, which is the point of a debate?

If you believe in "relevant experience", do you believe that a transwomen should ever be elected women's officer for an organisation? Do you believe that a transwomen's lived experience is in any way similar to that of a woman? Does that person have meaningful expertise in that role? Or is experience a one-way street?

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2019 01:07PM

Rennaws wrote: »

We live in a democracy, If we get there it will be because the majority want it.

Sounds like you want to try and manipulate and control that. We certainly don't want to go there.

It looks like you haven't been paying attention to what has been happening in the US and the UK.

In case you haven't noticed, the Brexit decision was not 'democracy'. The seeds were sown by the offshore owned newspapers, particularly the Telegraph and the Mail. A couple of decades of nonsense articles about straight bananas and migrant invasions prepared the gullible masses.

Then when the vote came, there is a very strong probability that the election result was bought and paid for via Aaron Banks - watch that space very closely over the coming months.

In the US, Trump's victory was indeed bought and paid for by the Russians via Facebook, with a little help from Cambridge Analytics.

It's the best democracy money can buy.

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2019 01:14PM

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

The tendancy for censorship, the confidence of certain campaign groups that they have the high moral ground and pressuring for what should and should not be shown on TV.

It reminds me of the catholic church.

Not being invited to speak on a flagship current affairs programme is not 'censorship'. If that's censorship, then I'm being censored every day. This is a news programme. It's supposed to be based on facts.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Anyone following this debate on Twitter knows that women particularly but people in general are afraid to speak up and voice their opinion because of the very real harassment and threats to their family, livelihood, and indeed life that will inevitably result.

I'm sure you're aware of that and you're also aware that the same message coming from a famous man will always be treated with more weight than it will coming from a previously anonymous woman.

I'm sure you're also aware of the violent abuse and harassment that female academics who are experts in the field have received for offering their views.

So in the face of that, it is very difficult for anyone to stick their head above the parapet and risk things from not working again to having transwomen posting pictures of themselves holding knives on Twitter sending death threats. All of the tactics that have worked on removing or threatening women into silence haven't worked on him, and he's stood up against them, including spurious wasting of police time.

So the question is, why are you pretending there isn't a valid reason why linehan was chosen to represent one side of a debate, given that he was evidently able to articulate the beliefs of a substantial portion of the population clearly and accurately, which is the point of a debate?

If you believe in "relevant experience", do you believe that a transwomen should ever be elected women's officer for an organisation? Do you believe that a transwomen's lived experience is in any way similar to that of a woman? Does that person have meaningful expertise in that role? Or is experience a one-way street?

You're really contradicting yourself here. If everyone is so afraid to speak up, then how come there is any 'debate on Twitter' or any backlash? It's a contradiction in terms.

I'd be very interested to know how you worked out that Linehan represents 'a substantial portion of the population' given that he hasn't lived here for decades and has no expertise or experience in the topic.

Zorya · 27-01-2019 01:14PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It looks like you haven't been paying attention to what has been happening in the US and the UK.

In case you haven't noticed, the Brexit decision was not 'democracy'. The seeds were sown by the offshore owned newspapers, particularly the Telegraph and the Mail. A couple of decades of nonsense articles about straight bananas and migrant invasions prepared the gullible masses.

Then when the vote came, there is a very strong probability that the election result was bought and paid for via Aaron Banks - watch that space very closely over the coming months.

In the US, Trump's victory was indeed bought and paid for by the Russians via Facebook, with a little help from Cambridge Analytics.

It's the best democracy money can buy.

I know, right! It's like these gullible masses are a ....a basket of deplorables. Ugh. Who let these unwashed cretins have the vote. Dear, oh dear, what is one to do with these reprehensible peasants, Andrew?

Zorya · 27-01-2019 01:17PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

. It's supposed to be based on facts.

Here's a FACT for ya. No one can change their sex. Never. Not ever. Ever. No one.
A person can alter their gender expression. But they will never ever change their sex no matter what hormones or surgeries they have. At the level of their DNA they will always be their innate biological sex.

Which goes along with another FACT - No one can ever be born in the ''wrong'' body. This is mythology.

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2019 01:22PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You seem to have a hard time understanding arguments as to what may happen. Linehan is in the UK anyway, where the laws are more stringent than here but culturally trans activism has already made more societal and organisational inroads. Over there the laws haven’t changed but organisations have adopted self identification and it has had fairly serious effects.

Ok then female toilets, refuges, short lists, sports teams etc. The Dail in the committee stages of the Gender Recognition bill(s) rejected all such protections and kept returning the bill to kick out any such exemptions. So despite your milequost deflections and throat clearing with regards the effects of self identification it’s clear it will have very strong effect on women’s spaces.

I’d say Brexit and Trump came from concerns being ignored. From news not being reported.

Odd argument from someone who was supporting puberty blockers on this thread a few days ago.

I understand arguments about 'what may happen' very clearly. I understand how those who are deeply uncomfortable with the whole idea that some people are transgender are stirring things up, trying to import a controversy from the UK where no controversy exists here.

We had the same 'slippery slope' arguments about marriage equality and repeal the 8th - about how people are going to be marrying their horse etc.

We've two years of self-identification here, with zero issues arising. Whatever issues may arise can and will be dealt with under existing legislation.

Those who claim to be concerned about 'protecting women' would be better off spending their time addressing the very real, current, existing dangers to women that are present today, instead of making up bogeyman stories about a future that isn't relevant to Ireland.

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2019 01:23PM

Zorya wrote: »

Here's a FACT for ya. No one can change their sex. Never. Not ever. Ever. No one.
A person can alter their gender expression. But they will never ever change their sex no matter what hormones or surgeries they have. At the level of their DNA they will always be their innate biological sex.

Which goes along with another FACT - No one can ever be born in the ''wrong'' body. This is mythology.

Thanks for proving my point beautifully.

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2019 01:24PM

Zorya wrote: »

I know, right! It's like these gullible masses are a ....a basket of deplorables. Ugh. Who let these unwashed cretins have the vote. Dear, oh dear, what is one to do with these reprehensible peasants, Andrew?

The problem isn't about people having the vote. The problem is about votes being bought and sold using Facebook and other technologies.

klaaaz · 27-01-2019 01:28PM

Zorya wrote: »

Here's a FACT for ya. No one can change their sex. Never. Not ever. Ever. No one.
A person can alter their gender expression. But they will never ever change their sex no matter what hormones or surgeries they have. At the level of their DNA they will always be their innate biological sex.

Which goes along with another FACT - No one can ever be born in the ''wrong'' body. This is mythology.

So much hate against a tiny minority

Zorya · 27-01-2019 01:29PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point beautifully.

Sorry, your point has gone right over my head. But at least I am glad to see we agree that no one can be born in the wrong body. Fabulous!

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The problem isn't about people having the vote. The problem is about votes being bought and sold using Facebook and other technologies.

Yes, yes, good be with the halcyon days when democracy worked perfectly and everyone, right down to the last chimney sweep, voted using their fully informed and dispassionate reason.

Ash.J.Williams · 27-01-2019 01:31PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They're bloody handy if you're a parent bringing child(ren) who are not the same sex/gender as you to a swimming pool.

As a single father of a young girl.... Unisex bathrooms meant I could actually bring her to the bathroom

Zorya · 27-01-2019 01:33PM

klaaaz wrote: »

So much hate against a tiny minority

I have not a single sentiment of ill will towards anyone who expresses their gender in whatever way they wish and anyone suffering dysphoria has my sincere compassion. Adults are free to do what they wish, as long as it harms nobody else.

What I will not do however is stand back and be silent while allowing scientific fact be thrown out the window to accommodate transgender ideology, or children being miseducated as to the reality of biological sex.

Muckka · 27-01-2019 01:37PM

Zorya wrote: »

I have not a single sentiment of ill will towards anyone who expresses their gender in whatever way they wish and anyone suffering dysphoria has my sincere compassion. Adults are free to do what they wish, as long as it harms nobody else.

What I will not do however is stand back and be silent while allowing scientific fact be thrown out the window to accommodate transgender ideology, or children being miseducated as to the reality of biological sex.

That's the problem with the left side of politics.
They're all for lables, delusional fantasy and they cannot understand fact's or live in reality.

There's only two gender's and that's about it.
Science has proven that.

There's a lot of confusion, but reality is reality.

klaaaz · 27-01-2019 01:37PM

Zorya wrote: »

I have not a single sentiment of ill will towards anyone who expresses their gender in whatever way they wish and anyone suffering dysphoria has my sincere compassion. Adults are free to do what they wish, as long as it harms nobody else.

What I will not do however is stand back and be silent while allowing scientific fact be thrown out the window to accommodate transgender ideology, or children being miseducated as to the reality of biological sex.

You don't show much compassion in your posts. Regarding adults, the medical community who know more about science than you disagree on your ramblings.

Zorya · 27-01-2019 01:40PM

Muckka wrote: »

That's the problem with the left side of politics.
They're all for lables, delusional fantasy and they cannot understand fact's or live in reality.

There's only two gender's and that's about it.
Science has proven that.

There's a lot of confusion, but reality is reality.

There are intersex people too, as well as male and female, but plenty of intersex people are very loud about being fed up to the back teeth of having been hijacked by trans ideologues to ''prove'' that any person's sex can be ambiguous.

Zorya · 27-01-2019 01:45PM

klaaaz wrote: »

You don't show much compassion in your posts. Regarding adults, the medical community who know more about science than you disagree on your ramblings.

I may come over strongly because I am thoroughly pissed off at the trans ideology that is trying to force its lies about biological sex onto society. Trans activists are often a vicious bunch who are terribly disrespectful to women in particular. The medical community are being harrassed if they speak out against trans ideologues - doxxed, death threats, rape threats, job insecurity.

klaaaz · 27-01-2019 01:53PM

Zorya wrote: »

I may come over strongly because I am thoroughly pissed off at the trans ideology that is trying to force its lies about biological sex onto society. Trans activists are often a vicious bunch who are terribly disrespectful to women in particular. The medical community are being harrassed if they speak out against trans ideologues - doxxed, death threats, rape threats, job insecurity.

You do contradict yourself quite a bit. Firstly you said "No one can change their sex. Never. Not ever. Ever. No one" and then afterwards you say "anyone suffering dysphoria has my sincere compassion" , that is the opposite of compassion denying a person with gender dysphoria their very existence. God help that person if they are your friend or a member of your family.

You've been ranting about "think of the children" quite a bit as well, where was your submission to the review of the Gender Recognition Act which specifically affects children under 18? https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Review-of-the-Gender-Recognition-Act-2015.aspx
I do see alot of supportive submissions from children's organisations, none seem to be supportive of your view.

Zorya · 27-01-2019 02:02PM

klaaaz wrote: »

You do contradict yourself quite a bit. Firstly you said "No one can change their sex. Never. Not ever. Ever. No one" and then afterwards you say "anyone suffering dysphoria has my sincere compassion" , that is the opposite of compassion denying a person with gender dysphoria their very existence. God help that person if they are your friend or a member of your family.
.

There is nothing contradictory there. Do you think that in order to feel compassion for someone experiencing dysphoria that I would have to jettison my rational understanding of proven biological science?

Could I not feel compassion for a person with anorexia without colluding in their dietary malpractice?

But this essentially illustrates the trans ideologues constant attempts at blackmail - if you do not believe what I feel about biological sex then you are a transphobic monster who hates me. Or I might commit suicide etc. This is false and neurotic manipulation.

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2019 02:02PM

Zorya wrote: »

Sorry, your point has gone right over my head. But at least I am glad to see we agree that no one can be born in the wrong body. Fabulous!

My point is that these 'concern for women and children' issues aren't really about concern for women and children. They're really about people who just have a problem with transgender people, and refuse to accept the lived reality of many people, because of some petty, narrow-minded fear of contagion perhaps.

Zorya wrote: »

Yes, yes, good be with the halcyon days when democracy worked perfectly and everyone, right down to the last chimney sweep, voted using their fully informed and dispassionate reason.

If you're not watching matters with Facebook and others very closely, you will find your democracy is stolen from under your nose.

Zorya wrote: »

I have not a single sentiment of ill will towards anyone who expresses their gender in whatever way they wish and anyone suffering dysphoria has my sincere compassion. Adults are free to do what they wish, as long as it harms nobody else.

What I will not do however is stand back and be silent while allowing scientific fact be thrown out the window to accommodate transgender ideology, or children being miseducated as to the reality of biological sex.

This is a direct contradiction. In fact, even your language betrays the contradiction - 'suffering dysphoria'. The 'suffering' arises specifically from the attitude you display and your refusal to be silent, not from the condition itself.

Zorya wrote: »

I may come over strongly because I am thoroughly pissed off at the trans ideology that is trying to force its lies about biological sex onto society. Trans activists are often a vicious bunch who are terribly disrespectful to women in particular. The medical community are being harrassed if they speak out against trans ideologues - doxxed, death threats, rape threats, job insecurity.

Have any of this 'vicious attacks' happened in Ireland?

One eyed Jack · 27-01-2019 02:10PM

klaaaz wrote: »

You don't show much compassion in your posts. Regarding adults, the medical community who know more about science than you disagree on your ramblings.

Regarding adults (as you appear to have chosen to ignore Zorya’s argument in relation to children), there is no consensus among the medical and scientific community who know more about the medical and scientific aspects of transgenderism and transsexualism than you appear to know. There are also the social and political aspects to transsexualism and transgenderism which are not in any way related to the medical and scientific aspects of either condition, and even among those people who are transsexual or transgender, there is no consensus as to who does and does not qualify as transgender or transsexual.

Are you familiar with the term “truscum”? It’s a term invented by trans activists.

klaaaz · 27-01-2019 02:13PM

Well Zorya, you have been the most vocal voice here concerning children. I see you have no answer to this:

You've been ranting about "think of the children" quite a bit as well, where was your submission to the review of the Gender Recognition Act which specifically affects children under 18? https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Revi...-Act-2015.aspx
I do see alot of supportive submissions from children's organisations, none seem to be supportive of your view.

Zorya · 27-01-2019 02:15PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

My point is that these 'concern for women and children' issues aren't really about concern for women and children. They're really about people who just have a problem with transgender people, and refuse to accept the lived reality of many people, because of some petty, narrow-minded fear of contagion perhaps.

''Lived reality'' is a bullsh!t subjective term from gender theory that attempts to contradict biological science. Live your reality, it does not affect me - but do not attempt to force ideological theory down my throat or into education curricula.

If you're not watching matters with Facebook and others very closely, you will find your democracy is stolen from under your nose.

You are a conspiracy theorist too? Will it be different next time when your guy or gal wins?

This is a direct contradiction. In fact, even your language betrays the contradiction - 'suffering dysphoria'. The 'suffering' arises specifically from the attitude you display and your refusal to be silent, not from the condition itself.

No, the dysphoria arises from subjective discomfort within the person who feels ill at ease in their own body. Time and research may find many reasons - there may be endocrine disruption, there may be parental issues as childhood difficulty is apparent in up to 70% of transgender cases of children, there may be the commorbidity with autism, anxiety, depression (again 75%+), there may be psychic contagion issue and social media influence, there are many possibilities. You saying that I must be silent in order to prevent the subjective discomfort of other people, which cannot be attributed to me, is an incredibly authoritarian statement and symptomatic of the bullying tactics employed in this area. But then again, the trans ideologues do begin to ressemble authoritarian apparatchiks.

Have any of this 'vicious attacks' happened in Ireland?

As I have said before ireland is too small a demographic to be representative. We can look to other populations to study what happens, such as the UK, a method that is often used in research when a larger demographic base is used. Particularly in medical/sociological research.

..

The Bishop Basher · 27-01-2019 02:20PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's the best democracy money can buy.

It’s still democracy.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The problem isn't about people having the vote. The problem is about votes being bought and sold using Facebook and other technologies.

And people are still free to vote as they see fit.

It’s still a democracy.

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2019 02:24PM

Zorya wrote: »

..

Lived reality is just that - lived reality. The lived experience of other people is their experience. You can choose to bury your head in the sand if you wish and pretend it doesn't happen, but that technique hasn't worked too well for the past century or two in making these things go away.

So that's a No then - these attacks, just like Glinner's stirrings, haven't happened in Ireland. It's a deliberate attempt to import a controversy from abroad, just because some people can't live and let live.

My guy or gal won't ever have the money the election result. You are handing power over to the wealthiest in society. Do you think they're going to use that power to look after you?

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2019 02:25PM

Rennaws wrote: »

It’s still democracy.

And people are still free to vote as they see fit.

It’s still a democracy.

If you don't see the inherent contradiction in 'best democracy money can buy', you really need to go read some history books.

One eyed Jack · 27-01-2019 02:26PM

klaaaz wrote: »

Well Zorya, you have been the most vocal voice here concerning children. I see you have no answer to this:

It wouldn’t have mattered because there was an obvious bias in the review process -

Moninne Griffith is chairwoman of the review group of the Gender Recognition Act and executive director of BeLonG To Youth Services.

klaaaz · 27-01-2019 02:45PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It wouldn’t have mattered because there was an obvious bias in the review process -

Read the submissions, especially from children's organisations.

LLMMLL · 27-01-2019 02:54PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

The question is whether that person was actually a victim of rape.or.sexual assault.

Your interpretation of the clauses that involve being mislead about "identity" and "the nature" of the sexual act do not hold up in relation to sex with trans people.

No that’s not the question. If someone walks into a Garda station and claims to have been the victim of rape or sexual assault, their claims are taken seriously, regardless of their gender, and regardless of the gender of the perpetrator.

They do hold up btw, because while a person who is transgender is recognised as their preferred gender in law, that’s completely irrelevant as to whether or not they could be found guilty of having committed either sexual assault or rape.

Their only defence in those circumstances is whether or not they had a genuine belief that they had consent, and it’s a question for the jury to determine whether or not that belief was reasonable. If you imagine that a jury would deem it reasonable that heterosexual males would generally consent to have sex with a person who is transgender, then you could feel free to argue that in defence of the person who could find themselves on trial for sexual assault or rape.

You didn't say someone CLAIMED to be a victim of sexual assault. You said "if a victim of rape or sexual assault....". So it absolutely is the question whether that person is actually a victim of rape or sexual assault based on the belief they were having sex with a cis person.

You can pretend that the only relevant matter in law is what a jury might decide as you have before but you are completely wrong. There is a whole.process involved in deciding whether a case is taken. You seem to think the only thing that matters in legal cases is whether a jury would convict. It's not.

Until you can show a precedent of a trans person in Ireland being successfully convicted under that law then your fringe interpretation is just plain wrong. It is not rape it sexual assault.to not tell a sexual partner you are trans. Just as it's not rape or sexual assault to tell your partner your name is Bob when it's really Mike.

One eyed Jack · 27-01-2019 03:04PM

klaaaz wrote: »

Read the submissions, especially from children's organisations.

I’ve read them, my point still stands.

Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

Comments